Ancient genomes reveal social and genetic structure of Late Neolithic Switzerland

Yes, we're in agreement about that. The only mass migration I can think of off hand where a "local" male haplogroup was adopted and flourished was with the Anatolian farmers, although G2a2 certainly took over in the Near East. Perhaps there just weren't enough of them in the beginning and they needed strong backs to do the farming. Also, although there is always, in my opinion, a certain level of "class" distinction in human societies, it was nothing to what happened later with the accumulation of agricultural surplus, and then the invention of metals.

I think we shouldn't underestimate the other factors, however, like prior population levels, and the effect of disease in decimating the native population, as we saw in the New World. Even those who survived would have been weakened and traumatized.

Think of more recent invasions. The Romans conquered most of their known world, killing and enslaving a lot of people in the process, so they were by no means saints, but they had no interest in exterminating all the males or creating a permanent caste system. Once the "natives" accepted they were now part of the empire, they were gradually enfranchised, and their local elites, the local social structure remained intact. They just wanted the trade and the taxes. Of course, population levels were high, and in the beginning there was no plague, although plagues hit later, but they affected all equally.

So, the lack of inclusiveness would have differed depending on the particular group involved and their situation. The Langobards were worse than the Goths, and imposed a caste system which lasted for almost a thousand years, but they didn't have the plague to help them and preceding population levels were higher, plus they were much fewer in number and the fields had to be tilled, so the y Dna change was much less. The Scythians were much more exclusive than the Sarmatians etc. for reasons we may never know. The Huns were perhaps the worst of all? Of course they killed a huge percentage of the women as well, totally depopulating certain areas.

A depressing picture indeed.

Dear, dear, first milk drinking and then blonde hair and blue eyes aren't signs of the "superior" Aryans. If Hitler had been freeze dried and resurrected he'd shoot himself in despair. Goebels and that monster wife of his as well. She even killed her own children, so she'd have no problem with it. I just read somewhere that Hitler, Goebbels and Himmler had thought about perhaps exterminating all dark haired people. I guess it had been a while since he had looked in a mirror and actually "seen" himself. What is it about us as human beings that we let such mad men rule us?

To me the Romans are very different from all these "Barbarians". There is a reason we call the Roman Empire the mother of Europe. Bringing infrastructure, wealth, building cities and the Roman way of life to the remotest places of the Empire has nothing to do with Steppe People like the Huns coming in and destroying everything they find on their way.

Y-DNA diversity in the Middle East is way higher than in Europe. There are plenty of haplogroups from the Neolithic Revolution G2a, J1,J2,E,L,T, and so on but also some R1b and R1a. And we don't see huge population turnovers like in Europe, except for one in the Copper Age.

The Nazis really are weirdos to me. Reminds me of a French cartoon. The Aryan Type: Blond like Hitler, Thin like Goering and tall like Goebbels. It's a shame they ruined the ethnic self-designation of the early Iranians.
 
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To me the Romans are very different from all these "Barbarians". There is a reason we call the Roman Empire the mother of Europe. Bringing infrastructure, wealth, building cities and the Roman way of life to the remotest places of the Empire has nothing to do with Steppe People like the Huns coming in and destroying everything they find on their way.

Y-DNA diversity in the Middle East is way higher than in Europe. There are plenty of haplogroups from the Neolithic Revolution G2a, J1,J2,E,L,T, and so on but also some R1b and R1a. And we don't see huge population turnovers like in Europe, expect for one in the Copper Age.

The Nazis really are weirdos to me. Reminds me of a French cartoon. The Aryan Type: Blond like Hitler, Thin like Goering and tall like Goebbels. It's a shame they ruined the ethnic self-designation of the early Iranians.

I don't think there was lack of turnover in the Middle East; it's just that it's further in the past than for some areas in Europe The migrations from the northeast certainly replaced the G2a2 and E with huge amounts of J1 and J2.

I'd agree with the rest, though.
 
Y-Haplogroup transition from Neolithic to Bronze Age (Supplementary Note 4):


View attachment 12008


A lot of R1b in the Bronze Age. Very likely that Bell Beaker R1b is from the Western Corded Ware Horizon.
The Western Corded Ware Culture might be speakers of Centum-Indoeuropean that later become Germanic, Italic and Celtic.


First sample with R1b is Aesch25(2864-2501BCE).


View attachment 12009
The paper used Yamnaya=YAM. None of these R1b or R1a samples have anything to do with--YAM-- Yamnaya R1b-Z2103-Z2109- 33oo+ -. hammer bone pins, copper, tanged dagger, wagons, horse remains.
 
I don't think there was lack of turnover in the Middle East; it's just that it's further in the past than for some areas in Europe The migrations from the northeast certainly replaced the G2a2 and E with huge amounts of J1 and J2.

I'd agree with the rest, though.

Sure, but we don't see Bell Beaker style replacement where one Haplogroup reaches frequencies above 50%. Usually there is no single Haplogroup that is above 35% in the Middle East. Only exception is J1 in the Arabian Peninsula and some ethnic groups in the Caucasus where G2,J1 and J2 go above 50%.


The paper used Yamnaya=YAM. None of these R1b or R1a samples have anything to do with--YAM-- Yamnaya R1b-Z2103-Z2109- 33oo+ -. hammer bone pins, copper, tanged dagger, wagons, horse remains.

I am not sure if this is directed to my post or to the conclusion of the authors, but I did not write that the R1b samples are directly from Yamnaya, they share a common paternal ancestor though not too long ago. In my opinion the early R1b samples are from the western Corded Ware horizon and could be ancestral to the Bell Beaker R1b phenomenon.
If I am not mistaken, they also wrote that these early samples with steppe ancestry are closer to Afanasievo than to Yamnaya. Interestingly, there was a Afanasievo man with R1b-L51 from Mongolia.
 
I am not sure if this is directed to my post or to the conclusion of the authors, but I did not write that the R1b samples are directly from Yamnaya, they share a common paternal ancestor though not too long ago. In my opinion the early R1b samples are from the western Corded Ware horizon and could be ancestral to the Bell Beaker R1b phenomenon.
If I am not mistaken, they also wrote that these early samples with steppe ancestry are closer to Afanasievo than to Yamnaya. Interestingly, there was a Afanasievo man with R1b-L51 from Mongolia.

Keep in mind majority of Afanasievo are R1b-Z2103+. R1b-L51 has not been found in Yamnaya[majority L23+>Z2109+].
Conflating three lineages into cultural package “YAM”‘=Yamnaya is not compatible with this Swiss R1a sample. ” Steppe ” terminology component is reflects a more accurate scenario. “Yamnaya like” in what sense ?YAM–Yamnaya Samara=Yamnaya R1b-L23+>Z2103>+Z2109- 33oo + /-[Swiss samples negative]. Yamnaya culture contain graves with, early forms of Yersinia pestis, hammer bone pins, copper, copper tanged dagger, silver, wagons, domesticated cattle/sheep, horse remains, etc…. It is not shown the vector of steppe in the R1a samples, the same can be said for I11955(GLAV_14_Co) Casual and or indirect contact with steppe; the actual vector can only be speculated.
 
torzio from this forum
posted it in another thread :good_job:
the y haplogroups that been found .....


below is the Ydna found from these neolithic swiss

Aesch1 G2a2a-pre-L166
Aesch4 G2a2a-pre-L166
Aesch6 G2a2a-Z6484
Aesch7 G2a2a-pre-L166
Aesch12 G2a2a-pre-L166
Aesch13 G2a2a-pre-L166
Aesch14 G2a2a-pre-L166
Aesch17 G2a2a-pre-L166
Aesch19 G2a2a-pre-L166
Aesch20 G2a2a-pre-L166
Aesch21 G2a2a-pre-L166
Aesch22 G2a2a-pre-L166
Aesch23 G2a2a-pre-L166
Aesch24 G2a2a-Z6484
Aesch25 R1b-L151* (xP312,U106)
MX150 G2a2a-L91
MX182 G2a2a-PF3239
MX183 G2a2a-PF3239
MX187 G2a2a-pre-L166
MX188 I2a1a2-Y3104*
MX190 I2a1a2-Y3104*
MX191 I2a1a2-Y3104*
MX192 I2a1a2-Y3104*
MX195 I2a1a2a-pre-L161?
MX204 G2a2a-Z6484
MX209 G2a2a-pre-L166
MX210 G2a2a-pre-L166
MX211 G2a2a-pre-L166
MX212 G2a2a-pre-L166
MX213 G2a2a-pre-L166
MX219 G2a2a-PF3147
MX252 R1b-L2
MX254_2 R1b-L2
MX257 R1b-L2
MX258 R1b-P312
MX259 R1b-P312
MX265 R1a-M458
MX270 R1b-L20
MX275 R1b-L2
MX279 R1b-L2
MX283 R1b-L2
MX286 R1b-L2
MX288 R1b-L2
SNPRA58 G2a2a-Z6484
SNPRA61 G2a2a-pre-L166
SNPRA62 G2a2a-pre-L166
SNPRA63 R1b-L2
SNPRA64 R1b-L2
SX10 G2a2a-L166
SX11 G2a2b-PF3345*
SX20 R1b-P312
SX29 I2a1a2-M423 (xL621)
SX32 R1b-L52 (xP312,U106)
SX33 I2a1a2a-L161
 
Keep in mind majority of Afanasievo are R1b-Z2103+. R1b-L51 has not been found in Yamnaya[majority L23+>Z2109+].
Conflating three lineages into cultural package “YAM”‘=Yamnaya is not compatible with this Swiss R1a sample. ” Steppe ” terminology component is reflects a more accurate scenario. “Yamnaya like” in what sense ?YAM–Yamnaya Samara=Yamnaya R1b-L23+>Z2103>+Z2109- 33oo + /-[Swiss samples negative]. Yamnaya culture contain graves with, early forms of Yersinia pestis, hammer bone pins, copper, copper tanged dagger, silver, wagons, domesticated cattle/sheep, horse remains, etc…. It is not shown the vector of steppe in the R1a samples, the same can be said for I11955(GLAV_14_Co) Casual and or indirect contact with steppe; the actual vector can only be speculated.

That Swiss R1a sample is from the Iron Age, isn't it ? To me it looks like Yamnaya pushed everything out of the steppe and that's what led to the Corded ware culture. That Romanian sample looks very "Yamnaya-like" but I tried to model him and to me he looks like a Steppe_Maykop and SS2(Aleksandriya) mixture. Yamnaya was not needed to model him. Still Corded ware looks more like Afanasievo and Yamnaya than that Romanian sample. There is a paper coming out for this time period (3500-3000BCE) and region so we will find out what led to the Corded Ware, Yamnaya and Afanasievo culture. Anyways, what is your opinion about the formation of the Corded ware culture and other steppe cultures ?
 
That Swiss R1a sample is from the Iron Age, isn't it ? To me it looks like Yamnaya pushed everything out of the steppe and that's what led to the Corded ware culture. That Romanian sample looks very "Yamnaya-like" but I tried to model him and to me he looks like a Steppe_Maykop and SS2(Aleksandriya) mixture. Yamnaya was not needed to model him. Still Corded ware looks more like Afanasievo and Yamnaya than that Romanian sample. There is a paper coming out for this time period (3500-3000BCE) and region so we will find out what led to the Corded Ware, Yamnaya and Afanasievo culture. Anyways, what is your opinion about the formation of the Corded ware culture and other steppe cultures ?

I have learned it is best not to speculate on other ydna lines. Everyone should be proud of their heritage and not judge others.
I'm just waiting for a few more papers, and then I'm getting out of this hobby. We have a common paternal bond and share common male ancestors, really fortunate to have so much material put out on our ancestors.
R1b-Z2103+= Yamnaya-Afanasievo-Catacombe-Hajji Firuzz teppe-Sarmatian- paternal marker.
 
It's such a fresh air to imagine your paternal ancestors were from your modern country maybe 4000 years ago already.
 
The paper used Yamnaya=YAM. None of these R1b or R1a samples have anything to do with--YAM-- Yamnaya R1b-Z2103-Z2109- 33oo+ -. hammer bone pins, copper, tanged dagger, wagons, horse remains.

the YAM is referring to the autosomal DNA, nothing more
 
That Swiss R1a sample is from the Iron Age, isn't it ? To me it looks like Yamnaya pushed everything out of the steppe and that's what led to the Corded ware culture. That Romanian sample looks very "Yamnaya-like" but I tried to model him and to me he looks like a Steppe_Maykop and SS2(Aleksandriya) mixture. Yamnaya was not needed to model him. Still Corded ware looks more like Afanasievo and Yamnaya than that Romanian sample. There is a paper coming out for this time period (3500-3000BCE) and region so we will find out what led to the Corded Ware, Yamnaya and Afanasievo culture. Anyways, what is your opinion about the formation of the Corded ware culture and other steppe cultures ?

that is how I see it to

the PIE lived in the Don-Ural steppe prior to Yamna
those were the Khvalynsk and Repin people

R1b-Z2103 invented a new lifestyle which replaced all other PIE in the Don-Ural steppe
those other PIE re-emerged in Corded Ware R1a-M417 and in Bell Beaker R1b-L51

I guess R1a-M417 ancestors were part of the Khvalynsk people
I guess the Repin people were R1b-M269, ancestral to both R1b-Z2103 and R1b-L51
 
That Swiss R1a sample is from the Iron Age, isn't it ? To me it looks like Yamnaya pushed everything out of the steppe and that's what led to the Corded ware culture. That Romanian sample looks very "Yamnaya-like" but I tried to model him and to me he looks like a Steppe_Maykop and SS2(Aleksandriya) mixture. Yamnaya was not needed to model him. Still Corded ware looks more like Afanasievo and Yamnaya than that Romanian sample. There is a paper coming out for this time period (3500-3000BCE) and region so we will find out what led to the Corded Ware, Yamnaya and Afanasievo culture. Anyways, what is your opinion about the formation of the Corded ware culture and other steppe cultures ?
As for 'steppe Maykop', aren't they Yamna with a little extra Siberian (ANE) DNA and some cultural but no genetical Maykop influence ?
I guess a few Q1a added this extra Siberian (ANE), but the bulk were probably also R1b-Z2103
 
that is how I see it to

the PIE lived in the Don-Ural steppe prior to Yamna
those were the Khvalynsk and Repin people

R1b-Z2103 invented a new lifestyle which replaced all other PIE in the Don-Ural steppe
those other PIE re-emerged in Corded Ware R1a-M417 and in Bell Beaker R1b-L51

I guess R1a-M417 ancestors were part of the Khvalynsk people
I guess the Repin people were R1b-M269, ancestral to both R1b-Z2103 and R1b-L51

Yes, very close to my thoughts about the steppe cultures.

As for 'steppe Maykop', aren't they Yamna with a little extra Siberian (ANE) DNA and some cultural but no genetical Maykop influence ?
I guess a few Q1a added this extra Siberian (ANE), but the bulk were probably also R1b-Z2103

The samples labeled Steppe Maykop are part of the Maykop culture but their autosomal DNA is very different. No Yamnaya atDNA but they have more Siberian related and ANE affinity than all steppe people, even minor Kennewick affinity. My guess is that they are from Central Asia something similar to Botai and maybe from Kelteminar culture and they absorbed the Eneolithic Piedmont. There was minor gene flow between the main Maykop people and the Steppe Maykop. About the Y-DNA, Yes i think they are Q1a and majority R1b-Z2103. The Romanian sample I mentioned, that in my opinion has Steppe Maykop ancestry, is maybe part of the Usatovo culture:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usatovo_culture

See the part about the connection to the North Caucasus.
 
I have learned it is best not to speculate on other ydna lines. Everyone should be proud of their heritage and not judge others.
I'm just waiting for a few more papers, and then I'm getting out of this hobby. We have a common paternal bond and share common male ancestors, really fortunate to have so much material put out on our ancestors.
R1b-Z2103+= Yamnaya-Afanasievo-Catacombe-Hajji Firuzz teppe-Sarmatian- paternal marker.

I didn´t meant to judge your Y-DNA line or anyones heritage. These were just my thoughts about the movements related to the steppe cultures. I think sometimes some speculation and scenarios for movements in pre historical times is needed to get a bigger and clearer picture of the past.
 
that is how I see it to

the PIE lived in the Don-Ural steppe prior to Yamna
those were the Khvalynsk and Repin people

R1b-Z2103 invented a new lifestyle which replaced all other PIE in the Don-Ural steppe
those other PIE re-emerged in Corded Ware R1a-M417 and in Bell Beaker R1b-L51

I guess R1a-M417 ancestors were part of the Khvalynsk people
I guess the Repin people were R1b-M269, ancestral to both R1b-Z2103 and R1b-L51

If Steppe peoples were PIE's and invented the chalcolithic herder lifestyle, it doesn't need any specific lineage as creator, but more lineage(s) as perpetuator. There is a lot of subclades that can be linked with the original IE migrations. R1b-Z2103, R1b-L51 ( P312 ), R1b-V1636 ( hypothetic ) and R1a-M417/Z645 ( Z93 and Z283 ), other R1a/R1b minor subclades and maybe even other haplogroups subclades. It's hard to be sure wich one created it.

But on an interesting note, Khvalynsk is probably the best proxy as what will become the Cultural Horizon known as Yamnaya, but Eneolithic Steppe is closer in terms of Modeled Ancestry to Yamnaya, than Khvalynsk is to Yamnaya.

Didn't both Khvalynsk and Eneolithic Steppe showed R1b-V1636? The same subclade found later in Kura-Araxes, and a potential source for early Anatolians ( R1b-V1636 is almost only found in modern Turkey nowadays ) wich are the most archaic form of IE.
 
I didn´t meant to judge your Y-DNA line or anyones heritage. These were just my thoughts about the movements related to the steppe cultures. I think sometimes some speculation and scenarios for movements in pre historical times is needed to get a bigger and clearer picture of the past.

LOL, I did not take it that way, we are related; I was speaking in broad terms. Every culture had different ways to survive their environment, steppe cultures included.
In terms of movements, I would say look to the regions we are buried.
Also look at the phylogeny of Yersinia pestis, in our graves, and others. Some of those graves have Yamnaya trademark hammer head bone pins.
 
LOL, I did not take it that way, we are related; I was speaking in broad terms. Every culture had different ways to survive their environment, steppe cultures included.
In terms of movements, I would say look to the regions we are buried.
Also look at the phylogeny of Yersinia pestis, in our graves, and others. Some of those graves have Yamnaya trademark hammer head bone pins.

Do you have more information about the Phylogeny of Yersinia Pestis. When and where do we have samples from with Yersinia Pestis ?
 
Do you have more information about the Phylogeny of Yersinia Pestis. When and where do we have samples from with Yersinia Pestis ?

https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0092867418314648-fx1_lrg.jpg
All samples below are R1b-Z2103+ populations male/female
Rise 511-Afanasievo
RK 1001-Caucasus
Vucedol-listed in other papers-Blakan
Rise 397-Armenia

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867418314648

https://indo-european.eu/2018/12/sp...ly-thought-may-have-caused-neolithic-decline/
 
among megalithic for sure, but probably before
watch the neolithic Y-DNA in the paper, all G2a2-PF3239, probably even all L166, the same as the 5 ka ötzi
this subclade probably occupied a large area, form Northern Italy till Southern Germany before steppe ancestry arrived
https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-PF3239/
Could perhaps a founder effect explain it too?

Well, anyway, I tend to agree. These warfares must have affected even specific R1b lineages in an important way, given the fact "two thirds of modern European men descend from just three Bronze Age leaders"*, or that "half of Western European men descend from one Bronze Age 'King'"**? As I said in another thread, G2 and R1b have a similar TMRCA, but based on YFull data, at about 6800 years ago G2 as a whole had more than 40 lineages that survived to our days, despite the huge decline in LN. R1b had about the half, if I checked it right. Despite the huge timeframe and area involved, could it support the notion that this competition between patrilineal kin groups tended to be significantly stronger in some cultures than others? Or is it merely explained by the fact G2 expanded earlier in farming societies?

* https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...e-leaders.html
** https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...onze-age-king/
 
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