Neretva E V13
Junior Member
- Messages
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- Location
- Sarajevo
- Ethnic group
- Bosniaks
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- E - V 13
Classical Greco-Roman autors (eg Livius, Strabo, Velleius Paterculus, Plinius Maior, Tacitus in Germania, Appianus, Cassius Dio ... etc ...) mention particular ethnic community in the Western Balkans, the Pannonian basin and central Europe as Pannonians (Παννόνιοι; Pannonii). As Pannonians, these authors mention the following peoples: Amantini (eastern Slavonia and western Srijem), Breuci (eastern Slavonia and northeastern Bosnia), Colapiani (around the Kupa River), Daesitiates (upper Bosnia), Pirustae (northern Montenegro), Delmatae (central Dalmatia , western Bosnia), Maezaei (northwestern Bosnia), Segestani (around Siscia), Oseriates (northern Bosnia and central Slavonia), Ditiones (northern Dalmatia, western Bosnia, Lika) ... etc .... Strabon (VII, 5 , 3) referring to the time of the Great Illyrian Uprising from 6 to 9 AD. n. e.: ἔθνη δ ἐστὶ τῶν Παννονίων Βρεῦκοι καὶ Ἀνδιζήτιοι καὶ Διτίωνες καὶ Πειροῦσται καὶ Μαζαῖοι καὶ Δαισιτιᾶται, ὧν Βάτων ἡγεμών ( "The peoples of Pannonia are: Breuci, Andisetes, Ditiones, Pirustae, Maezaei and Daesitiates, whose leader is Baton").
Archeology connects Pannonians with migration of the bearers of late-bronze age Urnfield culture during XII. century BC, and because domino effect which was transformed into sea – peoples migration. In western Balkans, it can be assumed that some of the Iron Age cultures, such as the Middle Bosnian culture and the Middle Dalmatian, are of pannonian origin. Unlike them, continuity from the Bronze age in Iron Age has Glasinac - Mati culture, and peoples such as Autariates, Ardiaei, Daorsi, Taulantii, Dardanians, Messapi… etc… These cultures and peoples should not be considered Pannonians, but should be included in the same group with „ Illyrians in the truest sense“ (Illyrii proprie dicti).
The problem of pannonian relations with these peoples which have a continuity with Bronze Age Balkans, is the fact that they were already grouped together in the era of classical civilization into an Illyrian ethnic complex and called Illyrians, which is also transmitted to modern mainstream. Perhaps the reason is that the Pannonian („Northern and western Illyrians“) and „Southern Illyrians“ spoke the same or similar languages or dialects. Eg. they give the same names (Bato, Teuta, Pleurat, Scerdilaida). This could perhaps be explained by language assimilation or linguistic mixing during the Late Bronze Age and Old Iron Age.
The Pannonians that would come from Central Europe and the Middle Danube area and the "Illyrians" who originated in the Bronze Age Balkans would differ in genetic origin. The Pannonians would thus be mostly I2a1, and the "Illyrians" of Bronze Age origin would carry the Neolithic and Bronze Age haplogroups, especially E1b1b - V13. This would also explain the considerable presence of I2 in Central and Eastern Europe.
Archeology connects Pannonians with migration of the bearers of late-bronze age Urnfield culture during XII. century BC, and because domino effect which was transformed into sea – peoples migration. In western Balkans, it can be assumed that some of the Iron Age cultures, such as the Middle Bosnian culture and the Middle Dalmatian, are of pannonian origin. Unlike them, continuity from the Bronze age in Iron Age has Glasinac - Mati culture, and peoples such as Autariates, Ardiaei, Daorsi, Taulantii, Dardanians, Messapi… etc… These cultures and peoples should not be considered Pannonians, but should be included in the same group with „ Illyrians in the truest sense“ (Illyrii proprie dicti).
The problem of pannonian relations with these peoples which have a continuity with Bronze Age Balkans, is the fact that they were already grouped together in the era of classical civilization into an Illyrian ethnic complex and called Illyrians, which is also transmitted to modern mainstream. Perhaps the reason is that the Pannonian („Northern and western Illyrians“) and „Southern Illyrians“ spoke the same or similar languages or dialects. Eg. they give the same names (Bato, Teuta, Pleurat, Scerdilaida). This could perhaps be explained by language assimilation or linguistic mixing during the Late Bronze Age and Old Iron Age.
The Pannonians that would come from Central Europe and the Middle Danube area and the "Illyrians" who originated in the Bronze Age Balkans would differ in genetic origin. The Pannonians would thus be mostly I2a1, and the "Illyrians" of Bronze Age origin would carry the Neolithic and Bronze Age haplogroups, especially E1b1b - V13. This would also explain the considerable presence of I2 in Central and Eastern Europe.
. Found in Greece, and it seems in Crete, the R1b spike there might have been due to this clade per STR's I saw. It is also found in a place where Unrfield element was rumored to have pushed the Dorians to the South.. These clusters are not profiled yet but they are distant to current clades.
