Ancient Rome Test (Various Calculators)

Salento · Sep 6, 2020

... curiosity

Dod K7 - Average ( ... by averaging the coordinates obtained from my single raw-data files)

... compare to Combined:

torzio · Sep 6, 2020

torzio said:
which is north-west Italian and which is north-east Italian from the above noted N_Italian and North_Italian

I know that O_Italian ( other italians ) are 2 samples found , one from east-Austria and one from Ukraine

OK....found....N_Italians are from liguria/piedmont and there are 13 samples

North_Italians are from Bergamo and there are 14 samples

There are no North-East Italian samples

Angela · Sep 6, 2020

Found where?

From the K7b Dienekes spreadsheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Me2vweYJN2mNtnDaypabv31sy2-kSWVhNJvanIsWtJU/edit#gid=0

N_Italian Dodecad members (5). Adriano Squecco isn't part of that group? I distinctly remember him saying he donated his sample. Dienekes never revealed the source of the Dodecad samples, only the academic samples. There was a thread at one time where people could reveal it.

North_Italian HGDP 11 samples. The HGDP samples are indeed from around Bergamo, but he only used 11. I think I vaguely recall his saying some didn't cluster with the others.

Apologies to members. I switched them upthread.

If you're talking about Vahaduo, they should only be using the ones he chose for the K7b.

Sorry to dash your hopes that the Veneto is more "Northern" on PCA from his data, even if they appear that way on some other PCAs.

Pax Augusta · Sep 6, 2020

torzio said:
OK....found....N_Italians are from liguria/piedmont and there are 13 samples

North_Italians are from Bergamo and there are 14 samples

There are no North-East Italian samples

North_Italian (11) is Bergamo HGDP, according to Ceph's coordinates, it is a sample from the pre-alpine/alpine valleys of the province of Bergamo (Val Seriana?). It does not represent the Po Valley but something further north.

N_Italian_D (5) like all the samples ending with _D, is a sample collected by Diekenes himself, and inside are the North Italians who were active in his blog at the time (so there are most likely some Friulians and Venetians).

The academic samples from Liguria and Piedmont had not yet been released when Diekenes created Dodecad. Even today there is only one Ligurian individual released from the academic samples, most probably from the Savona area (Fiorito 2015).

torzio · Sep 6, 2020

Pax Augusta said:
North_Italian (11) is Bergamo HGDP, according to Ceph's coordinates, it is a sample from the pre-alpine/alpine valleys of the province of Bergamo (Val Seriana?). It does not represent the Po Valley but something further north.

N_Italian_D (5) like all the samples ending with _D, is a sample collected by Diekenes himself, and inside are the North Italians who were active in his blog at the time (so there are most likely some Friulians and Venetians).

The academic samples from Liguria and Piedmont had not yet been released when Diekenes created Dodecad. Even today there is only one Ligurian individual released from the academic samples, most probably from the Savona area (Fiorito 2015).

so what are these 14 samples I have been sent ? ....................is it a different set for north-italian ...................I know these 14 samples are from Bergamo and Sondrio ( a town between Bergamo and switzerland)

I do not recall any samples that Diekenes has from friuli and veneto ..................v.coia did have friulian alpine ( carnico ) samples though, but most where female and 60% are K1a4

Pax Augusta · Sep 7, 2020

torzio said:
so what are these 14 samples I have been sent ? ....................is it a different set for north-italian ...................I know these 14 samples are from Bergamo and Sondrio ( a town between Bergamo and switzerland)

These 14 samples are the so called Bergamo HGDP of which, however, only 12 or 11 individuals are often used in academic studies or amateur tools.

torzio said:
I do not recall any samples that Diekenes has from friuli and veneto ..................v.coia did have friulian alpine ( carnico ) samples though, but most where female and 60% are K1a4

Private users, not academic samples.

Jovialis · Sep 9, 2020

Jovialis said:

Yet another update! This is soley for Dodecad K7b

I have divided the samples by haplotype-sharing averages, with excel spreadsheet:

Code:

C1_Central_Italian_Mesolithic,0.263333333,0.003333333,0.263333333,10.04,0.003333333,89.14666667,0.276666667
C2_Neolithic/Sardinian-like_Average,0,4.83,0,0.257142857,49.71071429,45.17714286,0.024285714
C3_North_African_Average,0,17.855,0,8.075,45.33,27.645,1.095
C4_Near_Eastern_Average,0.660769231,38.07,0.023076923,1.59,43.34846154,15.91230769,0.396923077
C5_Eastern_Mediterranean_Average,0.169259259,31.71703704,0.031111111,0.845185185,39.61555556,27.37074074,0.24962963
C6_Mediterranean_Average,0.163333333,25.62564103,0.126923077,0.74025641,34.78333333,38.30589744,0.256410256
C7_European_Average,0.432857143,11.90571429,0.392857143,0.491071429,24.22428571,62.195,0.358571429

Here are the haplotype-sharing averages for each era:

Code:

C1_C_Italian_Mesolithic_Avrg,0.263333333,0.003333333,0.263333333,10.04,0.003333333,89.14666667,0.276666667
C2_Neolithic_Avrg,0,5.148461538,0,0.235384615,50.09153846,44.49769231,0.026153846
C2_Late_Antiquity_Sardinian-like(R104),0,0.69,0,0.54,44.76,54.01,0
C3_Imperial_Roman_North_African_Avrg,0,17.855,0,8.075,45.33,27.645,1.095
C4_Imperial_Roman_Near_Eastern_Avrg,0.660769231,38.07,0.023076923,1.59,43.34846154,15.91230769,0.396923077
C5_Iron_Age_Eastern_Mediterranean(R850),0,32.01,0,1.09,39.03,27.2,0.67
C5_Imperial_Roman_Eastern_Mediterranean_Avrg,0.197272727,32.46363636,0.038181818,0.667727273,40.02772727,26.42,0.184090909
C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean_Avrg,0.046,28.432,0,1.626,37.802,31.554,0.538
C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean(R437),0,25.22,0,0.48,36.72,37.58,0
C6_Imperial_Roman_Mediterranean_Avrg,0.138571429,27.47785714,0.097142857,0.508571429,34.99571429,36.42857143,0.354285714
C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean_Avrg,0.36375,23.61625,0.08375,0.8,35.0875,40.0525,0
C6_Medieval_Mediterranean_Avrg,0.089411765,25.04588235,0.171764706,0.902941176,34.46529412,39.03,0.296470588
C7_Imperial_Roman_European_Avrg,0.065,5.615,0.48,0.32,23.895,69.395,0.23
C7_Iron_Age_European_Avrg,0.0325,11.4375,0.29125,0.3525,28.83375,58.945,0.11
C7_Late_Antiquity_European_Avrg,0.391428571,13.61,0.31,0.421428571,23.26,61.44285714,0.562857143
C7_Medieval_European_Avrg,0.817272727,12.30545455,0.503636364,0.667272727,21.54545455,63.72818182,0.432727273

Note: R475 was omitted, since it is a mix.

Modern Italian Dodecad K7b samples using the above coordinates:

Duarte · Sep 9, 2020

Very cool. According to the modern dodecad samples and the averages of the ancient Italian people samples I am, basically, a North African like. I think this is very, very cool.

Dodecad K7b

Target	Distance	C3_Imperial_Roman_North_African_Avrg	C1_C_Italian_Mesolithic_Avrg	C2_Late_Antiquity_Sardinian-like(R104)	C7_Late_Antiquity_European_Avrg	C5_Iron_Age_Eastern_Mediterranean(R850)	C7_Imperial_Roman_European_Avrg	C2_Neolithic_Avrg	C4_Imperial_Roman_Near_Eastern_Avrg	C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean_Avrg	C6_Imperial_Roman_Mediterranean_Avrg	C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean(R437)	C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean_Avrg	C6_Medieval_Mediterranean_Avrg	C7_Iron_Age_European_Avrg	C7_Medieval_European_Avrg
Duarte	0.87851657	•	39.4	35.8	12.8	9.6	2.0	0.4	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0
Pais_Vasco	5.37015051	•	0.0	26.4	32.8	0.0	0.0	40.8	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0
Canarias	0.27643347	•	23.4	21.2	30.2	0.4	0.0	8.2	13.4	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	3.2
Portuguese	1.05995941	•	4.0	18.2	27.4	0.0	0.0	0.0	15.4	2.2	0.0	0.0	0.0	1.0	0.0	0.0	31.8
Extremadura	0.43439466	•	0.0	14.4	24.0	0.0	0.0	10.2	11.6	1.2	0.0	0.0	0.0	8.4	0.0	2.8	27.4
Galicia	0.44706449	•	0.0	11.6	25.6	0.0	0.0	13.2	11.4	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	7.8	0.0	3.2	27.2
Murcia	0.30098305	•	1.2	11.0	23.6	12.8	0.6	20.2	13.0	0.0	2.8	2.0	2.0	0.0	0.6	10.2	0.0
Spanish	0.35443660	•	0.0	9.8	23.0	5.2	0.0	33.8	11.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	1.4	0.4	0.0	7.4	8.0
Castilla_Y_Leon	0.48479709	•	0.0	9.0	32.8	0.0	0.0	15.6	9.6	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	33.0
Andalucia	0.34307313	•	0.0	8.2	21.2	1.4	0.0	30.6	7.4	0.0	0.0	0.0	10.0	0.0	0.0	21.2	0.0
Spaniards	0.42297519	•	0.0	6.4	13.8	0.0	0.0	39.8	2.2	0.0	0.0	0.0	5.2	0.0	0.0	32.6	0.0
Castilla_La_Mancha	0.25289654	•	0.0	5.4	25.4	7.4	0.0	38.6	5.4	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.8	0.8	0.0	10.4	5.8
Baleares	0.36765847	•	0.0	3.4	14.8	4.2	0.0	33.4	3.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	9.2	0.0	0.0	32.0	0.0
Cantabria	0.46043153	•	0.0	2.8	24.4	0.0	0.0	67.6	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	5.2	0.0
Valencia	0.44932832	•	0.0	2.6	19.0	2.0	0.0	55.2	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.2	0.0	0.0	21.0	0.0
Aragon	0.49956034	•	0.0	0.0	28.0	1.6	0.0	66.6	0.2	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	2.8	0.8
Cataluna	0.74102922	•	0.0	0.0	11.0	0.0	0.0	59.0	3.2	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	6.6	20.2
Average	0.77315815	•	4.0	11.0	22.9	2.6	0.2	31.4	6.3	0.2	0.2	0.1	1.7	1.1	0.0	9.1	9.3

Jovialis · Sep 10, 2020

I made average for the Mycenaean samples, out of curiosity, and combined it with the prior coordinates I produced:

View attachment 12317

View attachment 12318

I'm uploading them as attachments, because imgur doesn't seem to be working at the moment.

Code:

Minoan_Lasithi_Avrg,0,23.082,0,0.378,49.684,26.816,0.042
Anatolian_BA_Avrg,0,33.25666667,0.103333333,2.343333333,41.13666667,22.79,0.37
I2937_Greece_Neolithic,0,13.15,0,2.15,49.96,33.94,0.8
Mycenaean_Avrg,0.2125,20.6,0.22,1.2275,41.1075,36.4125,0.22
Minoan_Odigitria_Avrg,0,18.602,0.504,0.172,50.722,29.712,0.29

*I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete,0,17.73,0,1.4,34.95,45.92,0

I didn't include I9123, due to low resolution, in the analysis.

Palermo Trapani · Sep 10, 2020

Jovialis said:
I made average for the Mycenaean samples, out of curiosity, and combined it with the prior coordinates I produced:

View attachment 12317

View attachment 12318

I'm uploading them as attachments, because imgur doesn't seem to be working at the moment.

Code:

Minoan_Lasithi_Avrg,0,23.082,0,0.378,49.684,26.816,0.042 Anatolian_BA_Avrg,0,33.25666667,0.103333333,2.343333333,41.13666667,22.79,0.37 I2937_Greece_Neolithic,0,13.15,0,2.15,49.96,33.94,0.8 Mycenaean_Avrg,0.2125,20.6,0.22,1.2275,41.1075,36.4125,0.22 Minoan_Odigitria_Avrg,0,18.602,0.504,0.172,50.722,29.712,0.29 *I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete,0,17.73,0,1.4,34.95,45.92,0

I didn't include I9123, due to low resolution, in the analysis.

Thanks Jovialis: I get pretty good distance again with Mycenaean's

Distance to:	PalermoTrapani
5.99988125	Mycenaean_Avrg
16.73722988	Minoan_Lasithi_Avrg
17.01468989	Minoan_Odigitria_Avrg
17.55289562	Anatolian_BA_Avrg
17.84991597	I2937_Greece_Neolithic

Target: PalermoTrapani Distance: 5.6583% / 5.65834317 \| ADC: 0.25x
90.6	Mycenaean_Avrg

9.4	Anatolian_BA_Avrg

Salento · Sep 10, 2020

thanks Jovialis :

Duarte · Sep 10, 2020

The Etruscan R475, out of curiosity.

Duarte · Sep 10, 2020

Jovialis said:

Jovialis · Sep 10, 2020

Jovialis said:
I made average for the Mycenaean samples, out of curiosity, and combined it with the prior coordinates I produced:

View attachment 12317

View attachment 12318

I'm uploading them as attachments, because imgur doesn't seem to be working at the moment.

Code:

Minoan_Lasithi_Avrg,0,23.082,0,0.378,49.684,26.816,0.042 Anatolian_BA_Avrg,0,33.25666667,0.103333333,2.343333333,41.13666667,22.79,0.37 I2937_Greece_Neolithic,0,13.15,0,2.15,49.96,33.94,0.8 Mycenaean_Avrg,0.2125,20.6,0.22,1.2275,41.1075,36.4125,0.22 Minoan_Odigitria_Avrg,0,18.602,0.504,0.172,50.722,29.712,0.29 *I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete,0,17.73,0,1.4,34.95,45.92,0

I didn't include I9123, due to low resolution, in the analysis.

Jovialis · Sep 10, 2020

Here is another out of curiosity, but unreliable due to low-resolution:

This is using the Antonio M. et al 2019 Haplotypes (both versions), and the Lazaridis et al 2017 averages.

Pax Augusta · Sep 10, 2020

Duarte said:
The Etruscan R475, out of curiosity.

Etruscan 475 is most likely half Etruscan half Sardo-Punic rather than properly Punic/Phoenician from North Africa. Sardo-Punics were a mixed population in Sardinia (a mixture of Punic/Phoenician and Nuragic stock). This makes even more sense archaeologically. In Antonio's study Marocco_LN was used to represent Iron Age North Africa but it is a quite misleading sample because being of the late Neolithic period Marocco_LN has a lot of EEF due to the gene flow from the Iberian Neolithic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punics#Sardo-Punics

kingjohn · Sep 10, 2020

not so close......

Distance to:	adam
10.70521018	Mycenaean_Avrg
12.96230604	Anatolian_BA_Avrg
16.92728815	Minoan_Lasithi_Avrg
19.00160656	Minoan_Odigitria_Avrg
21.71154992	I2937_Greece_Neolithic

Target: adam Distance: 7.2446% / 7.24455726
57.6	Mycenaean_Avrg

42.4	Anatolian_BA_Avrg

Jovialis · Sep 10, 2020

Here are the HGDP Italian populations in Dodecad K7b format. I ran them against three different versions of the test. One with the haplotype-clustering averages, one with those averages by era, and the last included the samples from Lazaridis et al 2017:

Code:

North_Italian_HGDP01147,0,14.05,0,0,26.68,59.27,0
North_Italian_HGDP01151,0,11.76,0,0,29.29,58.95,0
North_Italian_HGDP01152,0,14.01,0,0.02,30,55.96,0
North_Italian_HGDP01153,0,13.87,0,0,30.9,55.23,0
North_Italian_HGDP01154,0,14.42,0.11,0.2,27.18,57.64,0.45
North_Italian_HGDP01155,0,14.79,0,0,30.21,54.39,0.61
North_Italian_HGDP01156,0,14.58,0,0,30.83,54.58,0
North_Italian_HGDP01157,0,13.4,0,0,29,57.6,0
North_Italian_HGDP01171,0.25,14.35,0,0,29.97,55.43,0
North_Italian_HGDP01172,0.26,17.99,0,0,28.59,53.17,0
North_Italian_HGDP01173,0,13.68,0,0.01,29.18,56.78,0.35
North_Italian_HGDP01174,0,14.71,0,0,31.04,54.25,0
North_Italian_HGDP01177,0,14.87,0,0,30.54,54.59,0
Tuscan_HGDP01161,0,17.73,0,0,33.73,48.55,0
Tuscan_HGDP01162,0.12,20.88,0,0.18,30.9,47.93,0
Tuscan_HGDP01163,0.2,20.63,0,0,30.95,48.22,0
Tuscan_HGDP01164,0,20.14,0,0.23,31.18,48.45,0
Tuscan_HGDP01166,0,19.78,0,0,31.26,48.61,0.35
Tuscan_HGDP01167,0.37,20.03,0,0.07,31.51,46.97,1.05
Tuscan_HGDP01168,0,18.63,0,0.03,32.4,48.59,0.35
Tuscan_HGDP01169,0,20.46,0.2,0,33.91,45.43,0
Sardinian_HGDP00665,0,3.21,0,0,47.08,49.68,0.03
Sardinian_HGDP00666,0,0.54,0,0,46.41,53.05,0
Sardinian_HGDP00667,0,1.6,0,0.15,43.08,55.17,0
Sardinian_HGDP00668,0,0,0,0,50.34,49.66,0
Sardinian_HGDP00669,0,0,0,0,45.1,54.9,0
Sardinian_HGDP00670,0,0,0,0,47.8,52.2,0
Sardinian_HGDP00671,0,0,0,0,44.25,55.75,0
Sardinian_HGDP00672,0,1.85,0,0,47,51.15,0
Sardinian_HGDP00673,0,0,0,0.25,47.47,52.28,0
Sardinian_HGDP00674,0,0,0,0,45.15,54.85,0
Sardinian_HGDP01062,0,0,0,0.33,47.83,51.85,0
Sardinian_HGDP01063,0,0.65,0,0,45.67,53.68,0
Sardinian_HGDP01064,0,0,0,0,48.61,51.39,0
Sardinian_HGDP01065,0,0,0,0,46.71,53.29,0
Sardinian_HGDP01066,0,1.69,0,0.36,45.68,52.27,0
Sardinian_HGDP01067,0,0.97,0,0,46.69,52.34,0
Sardinian_HGDP01068,0,3.26,0,0,47.98,48.76,0
Sardinian_HGDP01069,0,0,0,0,36.4,63.6,0
Sardinian_HGDP01070,0,0,0,0,47.73,52.27,0
Sardinian_HGDP01071,0,0,0,0.35,47.2,52.45,0
Sardinian_HGDP01072,0,1.82,0,0,47.6,50.57,0
Sardinian_HGDP01073,0,4.26,0,0.43,43.81,51.51,0
Sardinian_HGDP01074,0,1.07,0,0,46.86,52.07,0
Sardinian_HGDP01075,0,2.04,0,0.28,46,51.68,0
Sardinian_HGDP01076,0,0.11,0,0,46.89,53,0
Sardinian_HGDP01077,0,1.54,0,0,45.1,53.36,0
Sardinian_HGDP01078,0,5.73,0,0.06,42.32,51.89,0
Sardinian_HGDP01079,0,0.18,0,0,47.34,52.48,0

Jovialis · Sep 10, 2020

Here is the PCA with the new HGDP samples:

Salento · Sep 11, 2020

... dod World K9

:

.... Post #119:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...s-Calculators)?p=599984&viewfull=1#post599984

Ancient Rome Test (Various Calculators)

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