Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic?

HiveMindTerror

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Ethnic group
Bosnian-Croat
Y-DNA haplogroup
I-F3145
mtDNA haplogroup
H11A
I'm genuinely curious if this has been "decided" anywhere by credible researchers.

South Slavs have a different stock of haplogroups than Northern Slavs, and cluster together rather than with other European groups. Clearly we're our own family-branch.

Coincidentally the people with the highest portion of M423 also dwell in what the Romans and Greeks labelled Illyria. Although most people think the Illyrians simply vanished after their Latinization, some kept their ethnic identity for a long time (such as the Barracks Emperors, Belisarius, etc.). I know the Balkans were generally a war-zone for the late Roman Empire and barbarian tribes, but did the Illyrians really just vanish (again)? I mean, Albanians claim to be of that stock but have more in common with Greeks genetically than South Slavs, and Albania was generally a kind of borderline between Illyria proper and Greece (Epirus).

Historically it was said that many Roman cities on the Croatian coast remained free and independent of the "migrant Slavs" and Latin Dalmatian was spoken well into the 1800's (from what I recall). Haplogroup I2 spikes in Dalmatia and Bosnia, one packed with seemingly peaceful Illyrian towns, the other a mountainous escape for natives from invading foreigners.

I mean, from the mosaics of Roman-Illyrian Emperors and Generals in Byzantium, I can definitely see more of a resemblance to many Southern Slavs than I can when comparing typical Bosnians to typical Russians. At the same time there is definitely a Slavic (or whatever northern European tribe) mix in Balkanians for sure, but mainly were we simply Slavicized after the collapse of the Western and Eastern Roman Empires?

Croatians were historically referred to as Illyrians, Serbs were synonymous with Tribalians (Thracian tribe), and Bosnia is named after the Bosona river (an Illyrian word if I recall correctly). I mean people of haplogroup I are noted for being particularly tall, the Greeks and Romans both described Illyrians as particularly tall people.

Can they ever dig up Illyrian bones and sequence their haplogroups?
 
There probably isn't much scholarly interest in such questions. In any case South Slavs are majority Slavic in most cases, as is I2a-Din. Autosomally Serbs seem to be the most Paleo-Balkanic of the Slavs in that they have greater affinity to Albanian and Tuscan populations (though the sample below includes Slavicized groups like the inhabitants of the Sandžak region). To get an idea consider these models, wherin Albanians serve as a proxy for the native population:

Slovenian: 72.5% Polish + 27.5% Albanian Fit: 0.702
Croatian: 70.83% Polish + 29.17% Albanian Fit: 0.52
Bosnian: 59.17% Polish + 40.83% Albanian Fit: 0.7791
Serbian: 40% Polish + 60% Albanian Fit: 0.8004

Y-DNA haplogroups are almost completely Slavic, especially in Bosnia and northern Croatia. The Paleo-Balkanic admixture must have come from women. Exceptions are again the
Sandžak populations with their Paleo-Balkanic haplogroup profile and the Serbs who seem to trace ~15-18% of their paternal lineages to a population that could have been Germanic.
 
I'm genuinely curious if this has been "decided" anywhere by credible researchers.

South Slavs have a different stock of haplogroups than Northern Slavs, and cluster together rather than with other European groups. Clearly we're our own family-branch.

Coincidentally the people with the highest portion of M423 also dwell in what the Romans and Greeks labelled Illyria. Although most people think the Illyrians simply vanished after their Latinization, some kept their ethnic identity for a long time (such as the Barracks Emperors, Belisarius, etc.). I know the Balkans were generally a war-zone for the late Roman Empire and barbarian tribes, but did the Illyrians really just vanish (again)? I mean, Albanians claim to be of that stock but have more in common with Greeks genetically than South Slavs, and Albania was generally a kind of borderline between Illyria proper and Greece (Epirus).

Historically it was said that many Roman cities on the Croatian coast remained free and independent of the "migrant Slavs" and Latin Dalmatian was spoken well into the 1800's (from what I recall). Haplogroup I2 spikes in Dalmatia and Bosnia, one packed with seemingly peaceful Illyrian towns, the other a mountainous escape for natives from invading foreigners.

I mean, from the mosaics of Roman-Illyrian Emperors and Generals in Byzantium, I can definitely see more of a resemblance to many Southern Slavs than I can when comparing typical Bosnians to typical Russians. At the same time there is definitely a Slavic (or whatever northern European tribe) mix in Balkanians for sure, but mainly were we simply Slavicized after the collapse of the Western and Eastern Roman Empires?

Croatians were historically referred to as Illyrians, Serbs were synonymous with Tribalians (Thracian tribe), and Bosnia is named after the Bosona river (an Illyrian word if I recall correctly). I mean people of haplogroup I are noted for being particularly tall, the Greeks and Romans both described Illyrians as particularly tall people.

Can they ever dig up Illyrian bones and sequence their haplogroups?

There already is evidence in what Illyrians carried and it wasn’t I2a-Din. However many South Slavs seem to have an issue with this reality(not saying you). The affinity Albanians share with Greeks is mostly autosomal paleobalkan ancestry. J2b-L283, the parent clade to E-V13 and R1b have all been found in Paleo Balkan remains of Illyrian territory. J2b-L283 specifically in a Proto Illyrian from Dalmatia. All three of these lineages are overwhelmingly found among Albanians and practically minimal in South Slavs. Additionally Mycenaean and Minoan remains were J2a, the variety of which is found predominantly in Greeks and Albanians barely have this haplogroup.

Perhaps Proto Slavs are connected to Dacians and this could leave a slim possibility of I2-Din and R1a being connected to the free Dacians in the Carpathian range. Connecting it to Illyrians is just wishful thinking. While I2 May have been present it surely was not the young clade I2a1b-Din found in south Slavs. Most likely it would be the basal I2a1 or the variety found in Sardinia.
 
South Slavs have a different stock of haplogroups than Northern Slavs, and cluster together rather than with other European groups. Clearly we're our own family-branch.

Coincidentally the people with the highest portion of M423 also dwell in what the Romans and Greeks labelled Illyria.


You are making a tautological argument there. You're saying South Slavs have I2a, and by coincidence I2a is widespread where Illyrians lived. That's not a coincidence, it's there because of the South Slavs.

Anyway, there is a very nice post on the origins of I2a here: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...d-distribution?p=554069&viewfull=1#post554069, post 9, by Vlad. The most common clades of the South Slavs today seem to have spread from Ukraine, Belarus and Poland.
 
Slovenian: 72.5% Polish + 27.5% Albanian Fit: 0.702
Croatian: 70.83% Polish + 29.17% Albanian Fit: 0.52
Bosnian: 59.17% Polish + 40.83% Albanian Fit: 0.7791
Serbian: 40% Polish + 60% Albanian Fit: 0.8004

Y-DNA haplogroups are almost completely Slavic, especially in Bosnia and northern Croatia. The Paleo-Balkanic admixture must have come from women. Exceptions are again the
Sandžak populations with their Paleo-Balkanic haplogroup profile and the Serbs who seem to trace ~15-18% of their paternal lineages to a population that could have been Germanic.

In northern Croatia there are more E1b haplotype (Albanian, Vlach etc) than in southern Croatia. As well as haplogroups R1b and J2b.

The Paleo-Balkanic admixture must have come from women
.

This is possible in southern Croatia but it should be seen in the Y haplotype (it is not visible), women (Ilirian or Vlachs) do not come alone to Dalmatia or remain alone when Croats coming to Dalmatia.

For that reason, northern Croatia is not completely Slavic if we look at the Y haplotype, it is more Slavic in southern Croatia and Herzegovina.

https://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-c...database_.-Molecular-biology-reports-2012.pdf

As for Serbs, they have mixed with Vlachs, historical records speak about Vlachs who largely become today's Serbs, and live a few meters from Albania and Kosovo. Logically they have more Albanian influence and it is now evident in genetics.
 
You are making a tautological argument there. You're saying South Slavs have I2a, and by coincidence I2a is widespread where Illyrians lived. That's not a coincidence, it's there because of the South Slavs.

Anyway, there is a very nice post on the origins of I2a here: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...d-distribution?p=554069&viewfull=1#post554069, post 9, by Vlad. The most common clades of the South Slavs today seem to have spread from Ukraine, Belarus and Poland.

This is migration of White Croats.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31539-Genetics-confirm-migration-of-White-Croats-to-Croatia
 
In northern Croatia there are more E1b haplotype (Albanian, Vlach etc) than in southern Croatia. As well as haplogroups R1b and J2b.

.

This is possible in southern Croatia but it should be seen in the Y haplotype (it is not visible), women (Ilirian or Vlachs) do not come alone to Dalmatia or remain alone when Croats coming to Dalmatia.

For that reason, northern Croatia is not completely Slavic if we look at the Y haplotype, it is more Slavic in southern Croatia and Herzegovina.

https://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-c...database_.-Molecular-biology-reports-2012.pdf

As for Serbs, they have mixed with Vlachs, historical records speak about Vlachs who largely become today's Serbs, and live a few meters from Albania and Kosovo. Logically they have more Albanian influence and it is now evident in genetics.

You're right, I was thinking about south-western Croatia and Rijeka.

I disagree that admixture necessarily shows in the Y-chromosomal haplotypes to a significant extent. In fact this isn't expected at all in male-biased migrations.
 
After all ... what does the Slav mean?! Haplogrup, whatever it is, I do not think it means... Genetically, they are almost identical to those around them, even if they do not call themselves Slavs.
 
I disagree that admixture necessarily shows in the Y-chromosomal haplotypes to a significant extent. In fact this isn't expected at all in male-biased migrations.

But women do not go alone, if in the south Croatia exist
Paleo-Balkanicgenetic influence
and suppose it is from Vlachs or Ilirian influence, where are E1b, J2 and R1b balkan types in south Croatia. If you have scientific work who speaks about Paleo-Balkanic genetic in south Croatia then show it. I suppose it has more Paleo-Balkanic genetic in North and Northwest Croatia, for the reasons I mentioned earlier.

I say this because I have not seen any scientific work for south Croatia, if it is written somewhere I will respect it and then give a new answer when I see results from that scientific work.
 
But women do not go alone, if in the south Croatia exist and suppose it is from Vlachs or Ilirian influence, where are E1b, J2 and R1b balkan types in south Croatia. If you have scientific work who speaks about Paleo-Balkanic genetic in south Croatia then show it. I suppose it has more Paleo-Balkanic genetic in North and Northwest Croatia, for the reasons I mentioned earlier.

I say this because I have not seen any scientific work for south Croatia, if it is written somewhere I will respect it and then give a new answer when I see results from that scientific work.

Ask yourself this: why are Bosnian Croats autosomally closer to Albanians than, say, Kajkavians despite having a more Slavic Y-haploid profile?

The answer is obviously male-biased migration.
 
Ask yourself this: why are Bosnian Croats autosomally closer to Albanians than, say, Kajkavians despite having a more Slavic Y-haploid profile?

The answer is obviously male-biased migration.

In which scientific work writes this?
 
In which scientific work writes this?

1200px-WestEurasia_admixture_crop.png


https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090#pone-0105090-g002

As you can see, Bosnian Croats are autosomally more southern (i. e. Balkanic) even than Muslim Bosnians. You can test this yourself with more accurate formal models if you want to explore this in more detail.
 
south Slavs are fine Europeans. they are my neighbors. the only thing I dont like about them is their sexuality.

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1200px-WestEurasia_admixture_crop.png


https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090#pone-0105090-g002

As you can see, Bosnian Croats are autosomally more southern (i. e. Balkanic) even than Muslim Bosnians. You can test this yourself with more accurate formal models if you want to explore this in more detail.

Genetic analysis based upon the variation of Y chromosome haplogroups (hgs) has revealed that the populations of Western Balkan countries share a large fraction of the ancient gene pool of Southeastern Europe, where 70% of the paternal lineages consist of five European-specific hgs: E3b1, I-P37(xM26), J2, R1a, and R1b [31]. Marjanovic et al. [32] suggested that the frequency of NRY hg I-P37 observed in Bosnia and Herzegovina is particularly high and could be partially attributed to genetic drift. High frequencies of hg I-P37 are observed both in Bosniacs (Bosnian Muslims) (43.5%) and Bosnian Serbs (30.9%). This shows that different ethnic groups in Bosnia and Herzegovina share a large subset of their paternal lineages, affected by a major demographic event, the post-LGM expansion. A population with a high frequency of I-P37 from one of the refuges, located possibly in the Balkans, played a great role in the peopling of Bosnia and Herzegovina and surrounding areas. Similar results were observed for Croatian populations [

This is a scientific paper from 2014, he's out of date. At that time and I2a I-P37 is a Balkanic so we can not make a proper conclusion.
 
This is a scientific paper from 2014, he's out of date. At that time and I2a I-P37 is a Balkanic so we can not make a proper conclusion.

The haploid data is irrelevant here - we are talking about the autosomal DNA. As can be deduced from the models I posted above, Bosnian Croats should trace about half of their ancestry to populations that were very similar to present day Albanians.

This is in all likelihood the Paleo-Balkanic signal.
 
The haploid data is irrelevant here - we are talking about the autosomal DNA. As can be deduced from the models I posted above, Bosnian Croats should trace about half of their ancestry to populations that were very similar to present day Albanians.

This is in all likelihood the Paleo-Balkanic signal.

Croats in Bosnia were surrounded by newly arrived Vlachs and marrying with Vlachs women's is possible, but we do not have data for south Croatia. In scientific work are only this data
Croatia (mainland, Zagreb region)

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090.g001
 
south Slavs are fine Europeans. they are my neighbors. the only thing I dont like about them is their sexuality.

Watch your mouth or there will be trouble. You're lucky you didn't get an infraction.
 
The way you're all making it sound is just that we're purely mixed between Slavs and Natives.

Don't understand some of the terminology because I'm a true layman, but thats how ive come to understand all the posts so far.
 

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