K12 Autosomal map : Southwest Asian admixture (from Dodecad)

I have found these numbers and links which seems to be lower number for E in the iberian peninsula.

E1b1b1b is M81, which is sometimes referred to as the
"Berber marker". It seems that E1b1b1a-b is E-V65.

In terms of a percentage of the male population in those specific geographic
areas covered by this paper, based on 2300 South European men from Iberia
and Sicily who were sampled, the authors concluded as follows:

For
M81 in Spain 5.2%
M81 in Portugal 5.0%
M81 in Peninsular Italy 0.8%

For
V65 in Spain 1.0%
V65 in Portugal 0.3%
V65 in Peninsular Italy 0.3%

These percentages are consistent with the Flores paper in 2004 (European
Journal of Human Genetics (2004) 12, 855-863), Neto in 2007 (American
Journal of Human Biology 19:000-000 (2007)) and Beleza in 2006 (Annals of
Human Genetics (2006) 70,181-194.

The E numbers for marciano must include other people. Since the phoenicians used souther iberia as a port of call to travel to Vannes Brittany and trade with the brittany veneti ( who traded with the welsh ) for Tin , should show ( maybe not ) some exchange in people.

then there is this
http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2008-06/1212735072

http://books.google.com.au/books?id...n#v=onepage&q=spain in the bronze age&f=false
 
I think Maciamo infered some percents using haplogroup frequencies when there was lack of data or the number of samples was too low. Probably that's what happened here.

I agree that in the Southwestern side must be some non European element at higher percent than the average of Iberia, but we have little evidence that Southwest Asian is in the range listed in the map. In my opinion is okey for the moment, but it's possible that what it's really found at slightly higher level is Northwest African, rather than Southwest Asian.

Basically, I'm not sure about the Phoenician impact genetically speaking, although they were known for their business there. Note that, for example in Catalunya, Phoenicians are very recognized to be there developing comercial activity, but the genetic impact seems to be 0% at all effects. Insignificant.
 
Basically, I'm not sure about the Phoenician impact genetically speaking, although they were known for their business there. Note that, for example in Catalunya, Phoenicians are very recognized to be there developing comercial activity, but the genetic impact seems to be 0% at all effects. Insignificant.

Actually, in regard for Catalonia, that does not come as a surprise. Phoenician settlements were in south, along the coast of Andalusia. It was only during the decades that led up to the Punic Wars that the Carthaginians expanded their influence along the Iberian east coast. Cadiz is one of the oldest - if not the oldest - city in Western Europe, and it is there where you can expect the largest impact of the Phoenicians.
 
Actually, in regard for Catalonia, that does not come as a surprise. Phoenician settlements were in south, along the coast of Andalusia. It was only during the decades that led up to the Punic Wars that the Carthaginians expanded their influence along the Iberian east coast. Cadiz is one of the oldest - if not the oldest - city in Western Europe, and it is there where you can expect the largest impact of the Phoenicians.
Well sorry, but their impact there is also insignificant, you like it or not. Because for example, the predominant subclade of E in the Levant is E-V22 which is found at 0% in Andalusia (see Iberianroots). Also the sublcade J1 in the Levant is found at more than 20%, yet in Andalusia you have 2%, also the ratio J1/J2 is completely different, in the Levant is almost event, or even the J1 is higher than J2. I know you are going to ban me again but...I can't help but to speak the truth.
 
Actually, in regard for Catalonia, that does not come as a surprise. Phoenician settlements were in south, along the coast of Andalusia. It was only during the decades that led up to the Punic Wars that the Carthaginians expanded their influence along the Iberian east coast. Cadiz is one of the oldest - if not the oldest - city in Western Europe, and it is there where you can expect the largest impact of the Phoenicians.

you are correct, link below has percentages and where studies where gathered
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_(Y-DNA)

so, southern Spanish areas did have the "phoenician" e v-22.

Site is also correct on the sicilians, always infested with greek or Phoenician/carthagianian people.

the interesting one is e - m78 . what does macedonian romani mean ?......romans for roma gypies. If they are gypies, is kosovar the migration area where they settled from asia?
 
Well sorry, but their impact there is also insignificant, you like it or not. Because for example, the predominant subclade of E in the Levant is E-V22 which is found at 0% in Andalusia (see Iberianroots). Also the sublcade J1 in the Levant is found at more than 20%, yet in Andalusia you have 2%, also the ratio J1/J2 is completely different, in the Levant is almost event, or even the J1 is higher than J2. I know you are going to ban me again but...I can't help but to speak the truth.

andalusia has 4.44% of E-V22 .............see link in post #45
 
Iberianroots is much more reliable than Wikipedia. More samples will show things clearer.
 
andalusia has 4.44% of E-V22 .............see link in post #45
Wikipedia seriously ? And please read well, because it says Asturias, not Andalusia.
 
Wikipedia seriously ? And please read well, because it says Asturias, not Andalusia.


link in post #49 is what wiki used.

I was in error about Andulasia
The Principality of Asturias (Spanish: Principado de Asturias, IPA: [pɾinθiˈpaðo ðe asˈtuɾjas]; Asturian: Principáu d'Asturies, IPA: [pɾinθiˈpau ðasˈtuɾjes]) is an autonomous community of the Kingdom of Spain, coextensive with the former Kingdom of Asturias in the Middle Ages. The autonomous community of Asturias is bordered by Cantabria to the east, by Castile and León to the south, by Galicia to the west, and by the Bay of Biscay to the north.

still, there was 3.23% in souther Spain
 
I always thought that an African, rather than Eurasian origin of the Afro-Asiatic languages as a whole is more likely, since all but one branch (Semitic) are found in Africa. Having said this, we don't really know. The Afro-Asiatic languages are probably the oldest conceivable and undisputed language family we know, so there is the possibility it might be different.

What counts is the edge of the original Porto- Afro-Asiatic speakers over the early adopters

Diversity does not really mean origin
 
J-P58 is J1c3, not J1c3d (Semitic J1), check out the variance map of J1c3 in figure 1 (Map e), that hot spot is the origins for this lineage.

Btw, where did you come up with 10.7% J1c3? I can only count 7.6% (Which is very similar to the Kurds btw, they carry 7.4%).

I would ad Southern(Iraqi) Kurdish because the samples are from Noirth Iraq you can read in the source. And J1c3 most probably originated somewhere in Mesopotamia-Zagros and moved into the Arabic Peninsula mutating into J1c3d (which is the real Semitic marker).
 
just to put some thoughts: I don't know if it will bring things up:

for the 'southwest asian' concept, or 'Red Sea' for some ones, I suppose it reposes on a population where Y-E1b was dominant at first - it is possible that Y-J1 and Y-J2 got down in Arabia, in a position of rulers or initiators and bringing more males than females - Y-J could be linked more to a part of the 'west asian' concept, other parts of 'west asian' being more linked to Y-G ?

one other hand, when comparing autosomals of Muslim Yemenese to Jews Yemenese in dode10, we see a very close repartition only for some 'subsaharian' and 'south asian' components among Muslims: it put me to conclude that Jews there lived in a more close endogamy (I suppose the 'subsaharian' and 'south asian' comp- are from female among Muslims) and that the 'southwest asian' component was previously of almost "pure" caucasian phenotypes even if "african" by geographic origin, phénotypes that we see clearly acting in the Ethiopian population linked to their admixture -
I have no record, I believe it was on Dieneke's, I saw not a mean result of autosomals but a set of 10 different Yemenese men: this sample showed for every person a father & mother component: and , if I don' mistake, all of them presented a small but consistant amount of father = mother 'subafrican' when 1 fo them show a very bigger (almost 50%?) mother 'subafrican' component compared to father - surely it need more data to establish a law, but it seam that the gene stream from 'subafrican' in this region is principally by women (mothers): except for footballers children!!!
 
I posted something in a thread about Ötzi (ancient DNA) and the big enough amount of SW Asian he showed, strange for a Y-G2 man of Cardial or just Post-Cardial cultural affiliation (Anatolian geographic first origin?) - we can imagine that this component was present also among Neolithic farmers of N-Fertile Crescent but I imagine too that its presence can be older than Neolithic in Mediterranea surroundings - females mediated in Ötzi 's people? (Y-E1b is old enough there!)
 
Would u please change the map it gives the wrong information that in the biggest part of Bulgaria there is between 5%-10% of J1 and this admixture. This is not true. It is between 2%-3.5%.Data should be fixed!Thanks :)
 
Would u please change the map it gives the wrong information that in the biggest part of Bulgaria there is between 5%-10% of J1 and this admixture. This is not true. It is between 2%-3.5%.Data should be fixed!Thanks :)

This map is not J1 but Southwest Asian admixture from the Dodecad K=12. Bulgarians have an average of 5%.
 
just to put some thoughts: I don't know if it will bring things up:

for the 'southwest asian' concept, or 'Red Sea' for some ones, I suppose it reposes on a population where Y-E1b was dominant at first - it is possible that Y-J1 and Y-J2 got down in Arabia, in a position of rulers or initiators and bringing more males than females - Y-J could be linked more to a part of the 'west asian' concept, other parts of 'west asian' being more linked to Y-G ?

one other hand, when comparing autosomals of Muslim Yemenese to Jews Yemenese in dode10, we see a very close repartition only for some 'subsaharian' and 'south asian' components among Muslims: it put me to conclude that Jews there lived in a more close endogamy (I suppose the 'subsaharian' and 'south asian' comp- are from female among Muslims) and that the 'southwest asian' component was previously of almost "pure" caucasian phenotypes even if "african" by geographic origin, phénotypes that we see clearly acting in the Ethiopian population linked to their admixture -
I have no record, I believe it was on Dieneke's, I saw not a mean result of autosomals but a set of 10 different Yemenese men: this sample showed for every person a father & mother component: and , if I don' mistake, all of them presented a small but consistant amount of father = mother 'subafrican' when 1 fo them show a very bigger (almost 50%?) mother 'subafrican' component compared to father - surely it need more data to establish a law, but it seam that the gene stream from 'subafrican' in this region is principally by women (mothers): except for footballers children!!!

Didn't see this until today. I totally agree that J1 as well as J2 are probably associated with the West Asian component. (Along with G2, of course.) Everything I've seen, including variance, indicates that J1 formed in the northern Middle East. I believe that some of the non "Arabian" J1 was part of Neolithic migrations into Europe. J1's tremendous dominance in the southern Levant is, I think, the result of a founder effect that has been amplified by the patriarchal, clan based nature of the culture.

I also agree that the sub-saharan is usually female mediated.

As for E1b1b, I am more and more persuaded by recent papers on the area that those who posited in the past that "E" separated from DE after the initial migration Out of Africa, perhaps in the Arabian peninsula itself, and then back migrated into Africa. Part of it also went north through the Levant and into Europe via Anatolia, the Balkans, and Greece etc., and part of it migrated across North Africa and through the straits of Gibralta into Iberia.

It's true as well that the Southwest Asian was present in Oetzi, and at levels even higher than exist in northern Italy today, but even more interesting, perhaps, it is at approximately the same level in Gok 4, even though her genome shows, I think, more admixture with western, pre-existing populations.

Whether that is down to the E1b1b and J1 that came with the Neolithic is an intriguing question as well. I've seen some studies that proposed a Mesolithic arrival of E1b1b into the Balkans. In that case, there would have been acculturation of these groups into a Neolithic way of life. I wish they would hurry up and publish the results from all those tests of Mesolithic and Neolithic Balkan samples.
 
where did you get this information from?

I am surprised that catalonia has a low count as they have greek and Phoenician ancient links

apprently Phoenicians and Greeks colonies left only few genetic traces in western Europe (maybe more concerning Greeks) - and Catalunia/Catalunya is not only a coastal region...
 
some historians of the first half of the past century said Arabic today populations were come from more northern lands (so Near Eastern) before a "come back" later ?!? so ? surely the "fronteer" between the two grouping of 'westasian' and 'southwestasian' are very thin -
 

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