Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

[Archetype0ne]

You can't say that the "slavic ancestry drops to 10-15%" as a fact when it is the result of this paper which must even go through peer review... Anyway, it is not a shocking revelation that ADMIXTURE runs depend on the selection of reference pops, so if one chooses different reference pops (Albania_IA vs Greece_IA+Slavic) there are bound to be different results and one ought to compare both "technical" fitness (P values) of the runs and "extratechnical" feasibility (how much well the runs make sense in the light of other evidence).
Honestly I am growing tired of reading nonsensical speculations regarding the ethnogenesis of modern Greeks and Italians invoking ghost migrations from far away places and implausible admixture events, speculations that seem to have the goal to lower as much as possible the continuity between them and ancient peoples; the modern scientific literature broadly supports the view of the kind of genetic continuity seen everywhere else in Eurasia, hence people contesting that must bring really good evidence and arguments against that claim, not the nonsensical crap I've kept seeing for years.

I am not sure how you think peer review works. But given how well your remark was received, maybe I was a fool to waste my time reading the paper and replicating their methodology, just to be rebutted with 0 substance snarky remarks.

^This is what you are arguing for. But I would bet you havent even read the paper, let alone tried to replicate it.


Anyways, lets see when the paper comes out, what's what. But given peer reviewed papers since 2021... its predictable.

 

[Archetype0ne]

I am sorry, man, I think you have got the wrong end of the stick about me. I really don't get why you're so upset about my posts, I'd say that are pretty impartial and the only people targetted per se by my comments are various Greek ethno-fora posters, not you, not Italians, not Albanians and certainly not anyone else. Given that I am born and bred Greek from Greece and not the diaspora, tax-paying citizen and an accomplished military conscript of I1 classification (meaning that it's my ass in the front lines if the proverbial crap hits the fan) I think I have earned the right to comment on some of my country's shortcomings, no?

Furthermore, I am not emotionally vested in this discourse in the sense that I am not anxious to prove anything, I enter the data as an agnostic. I am a student of ethnography and history, I have a PH.D. (you can read my thesis online if you want, can PM details to w/e is interested), and I face the same establishment omerta that every ethnographer has faced when doing relevant research in Greece since the early 60s, albeit it's much easier now. With all due respect, you are an outsider in this conversation and you lack significant knowledge and life experience about the 'politics of history' in this country and what they permeate. Other Balkaners might be more apprehensive in the sense that they probably faced similar circumstances in their own countries, things that are completely foreign practices to academia in the West.

Thirdly, Moreans have input in varying degrees from Italics, Anatolians, North Africans, Albanophones and (more than anything else) Vlach/Bogdanians. It's written in historical accords and the uniparentals prove it. I am sorry but it's just how it is, no matter how much my posts are upsetting to some, they hold the truth and the matter of fact is that everything I post can be cross-referenced, I always provide sources and I have made several tutorials on various sites to teach people how to use software like qpAdm in order to cross-reference what I say, which I might add I am one of the very first people who have actually done so (streamline the process for the non-initiated).

Eupator, given your background in the field, and the fact that your guide helped me get into the formal methods.
I wanted your opinion on this:

First three way model I got to (almost given <.05SE threshold) work. I am sure with some tail optimization it can improve. But from a historical perspective, does it make sense?

I think that if the dataset had some pre-population-exchange medieval Greek sample, it would test the viability of the model. But the dataset I currently use, does not.

 

[eupator]

There is a gradient for all groups of Greeks and is more of less encapsulated by the Byzantine samples (or Roman Imperial) + the addition of a migratory/assimilated source depending on the region.

Northern Greeks would be on the one end of the gradient being very similar to their Balkan neighbors, let's say Albanians and Bulgarians, but not identical since their Byzantine input moves them south and NE Anatolian Greeks on the other end, similar to Armenians and Georgians, but not identical since their Byzantine input moves them a bit north towards non-Turkic Anatolia. The center of the spread would be the Dodecannesians and Cretans and Cypriots, being the ones closest to the medieval Byzantines. This is the spread of the modern Greek world, I am not a fan personally of BA and IA exercises, but your models look good to me, all things considered.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Jovialis: My results from coordinates from your post 779. Thanks and thanks to new user gh777.

Results from post 777 without Corded Ware samples

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

@idontknowwhatiamdoing:

The Jordan_BA sample average is curtesy of a new user, gh777

Nevertheless, we still need ancIBD.

Early_Bronze_Age_Jordan_(n=3),3.70,1.96,1.80,2.59,16.66,0.07,0.03,2.56,34.26,0.00,36.36,0.00
Minoan_Zakros:I14916,0,0,3.51,0,31.15,0,2.37,0,12.57,0,49.61,0.8
Minoan_Lasithi,0.652,0.01,3.302,0.19,37.716,0.046,0,0,14.12,0,43.886,0.078
Minoan_Odigitria,2.584,0.472,1.574,0,42.44,0,0,0.338,14.602,0.204,37.722,0.066
Minoan_Petras:Pta08:Clemente_2021,0,0,3.85,0.33,34.73,0.38,0.14,0.05,14.68,0.48,43.65,1.72
Yamnaya,26.74263158,2.019473684,0.048947368,0.048947368,4.413157895,59.63526316,1.102631579,0.022631579,0.02,0,5.234210526,0.712631579
Isparta_BA,7.56,0.286666667,1.633333333,0.573333333,26.18333333,3.166666667,0,0.573333333,14.06666667,0.01,44.24,1.706666667

No, not Jordan, Jordan is useless here and not really ancestral to even modern Levantines. Add the Bronze age Lebanon Sidon samples as proxy. Cypriots can't have only 16% Levant, it is around 30% when using Sidon as a proxy.

According to your model, Cypriots have 0.4% steppe when in reality they have 10%. This just proves how flawed dodecad is.

 

[Jovialis]

Well, EBA_Jordan is what I had found, and it is actually not that far off from Sidon_BA. EBA_Jordon only has a tiny bit more Natufian. I doubt it would improve the fit very much, because even with a very similar component like EBA_Jordan, the fit is still over 7, which means they need something very different.

I already PMed Salento asking him to process the FASTQ, but I doubt it is going to make much of a difference.

Here it is along with the Corded_Ware proxy for Slavic in Greeks, but also perhaps some ancestry from Italics in the case of Italians. Since it is possible the Italics were also ultimately descended from Corded Ware

Early_Bronze_Age_Jordan_(n=3),3.70,1.96,1.80,2.59,16.66,0.07,0.03,2.56,34.26,0.00,36.36,0.00
Minoan_Zakros:I14916,0,0,3.51,0,31.15,0,2.37,0,12.57,0,49.61,0.8
Minoan_Lasithi,0.652,0.01,3.302,0.19,37.716,0.046,0,0,14.12,0,43.886,0.078
Minoan_Odigitria,2.584,0.472,1.574,0,42.44,0,0,0.338,14.602,0.204,37.722,0.066
Minoan_Petras:Pta08:Clemente_2021,0,0,3.85,0.33,34.73,0.38,0.14,0.05,14.68,0.48,43.65,1.72
Yamnaya,26.74263158,2.019473684,0.048947368,0.048947368,4.413157895,59.63526316,1.102631579,0.022631579,0.02,0,5.234210526,0.712631579
Isparta_BA,7.56,0.286666667,1.633333333,0.573333333,26.18333333,3.166666667,0,0.573333333,14.06666667,0.01,44.24,1.706666667
Corded_Ware_(n=6),8.788333333,0.396666667,0,0,25.90333333,60.15,0.156666667,0.005,0,0.513333333,3.671666667,0.42

This model, with the CWC component is better by the way, just look at the fits. But it is really intended for Southern Italy, and Greece, considering history. Nevertheless the fit is best for Greeks and S. Italians.

Cypriots get a bad fit in both models, 7 and 8. Maybe Sidon will improve it slightly, maybe not.

I think the main issue is that Cypriots can't be modeled with ancient groups, even when accounting for a Bronze Age Levantine population like Jordon_EBA. Nevertheless, Other Greeks, and South Italians can be modeled various with the ancient Groups, even when accounting for Jordon_EBA. A fit of 4 is a stretch for some, but it ultimately fails for only far Northern Italians, Sardina, and Cyprus. I don't expect it to work well with far North Italians, or Sardina, since the model is not really intended for them. But for Cyprus, I guess it shows they need something else.

 

[Jovialis]

Only one of the Cypriots gets a fairly decent fit, the rest it jumps from 7 to 13. Truthfully, I don't know if these are Greek cypriots, or Turkish cypriots. Maybe that could be the issue with the fit.

Why don't you run your own DNA agains the coordinates I provided, I'd be interested to see it.

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

Only one of the Cypriots gets a fairly decent fit, the rest it jumps from 7 to 13. Truthfully, I don't know if these are Greek cypriots, or Turkish cypriots. Maybe that could be the issue with the fit.

Why don't you run your own DNA agains the coordinates I provided, I'd be interested to see it.

They score too little Levant, too much Minoan, too little steppe. Dodecad is just not accurate. The average Cypriot has 30% Levant Sidon and 10% steppe.

 

[Jovialis]

They score too little Levant, too much Minoan, too little steppe. Dodecad is just not accurate. The average Cypriot has 30% Levant Sidon and 10% steppe.

Again, you're missing the point. Look at the fit. The scores are irrelevant, because the fit is bad. It has nothing to do with Dodecad.

 

[Jovialis]

They score too little Levant, too much Minoan, too little steppe. Dodecad is just not accurate. The average Cypriot has 30% Levant Sidon and 10% steppe.

Please provide the study that shows those figures. I'd genuinely like to see it, considering I'm not as keen on Cypriots.

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

Please provide the study that shoes those figures. I'd genuinely like to see it, considering I'm not as keen on Cypriots.

You won't accept my qpAdm models even if i use the same references and sources as studies.

 

[Jovialis]

You won't accept my qpAdm models even if i use the same references and sources as studies.

If you are going to start making false accusations I'm going to ban you forever. Go ahead and make the models, I could care less. You don't know that the fit is garbage, and you can't cite the sources. Find me the study that shows those proportions. Replicate my model with Sidon in qpdam. You base it on populations that make sense, not shoe horning a model to just accommodate Cypriots, when it works fine for everyone else. This is your last chance.

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

If you are going to start making false accusations I'm going to ban you forever. Go ahead and make the models, I could care less. You don't know that the fit is garbage, and you can't cite the sources. Find me the study that shows those proportions. Replicate my model with Sidon in qpdam. You base it on populations that make sense, not shoe horning a model to just accommodate Cypriots, when it works fine for everyone else. This is your last chance.

The fit is bad because it needs an Armenian source. Add an Armenian source if you have time. Can you send me all the dodecad ancient and modern samples so i can run it myself?

There were recorded Armenian migrations to Cyprus in Medieval times but i think not all of it is from actually Armenians. A big % of that shift might also be from South East Anatolians.

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

If you are going to start making false accusations I'm going to ban you forever. Go ahead and make the models, I could care less. You don't know that the fit is garbage, and you can't cite the sources. Find me the study that shows those proportions. Replicate my model with Sidon in qpdam. You base it on populations that make sense, not shoe horning a model to just accommodate Cypriots, when it works fine for everyone else. This is your last chance.

Can you send me an bronze age Armenian source? If you have later one send them too. Medieval one would also be great because of the recorded migrations.

 

[Jovialis]

Can you send me an bronze age Armenian source? If you have later one send them too. Medieval one would also be great because of the recorded migrations.

Here you go. I didn't have time to sort them, but the BA samples are in the list:

ARM_Agarak_Mdv:I1630,16.65,0,1.4,1.56,12.1,5.43,0.26,0,16.03,0,46.49,0.09
ARM_Agarak_Mdv:I1659,20.19,0,0.67,0.51,11.65,8.58,0.66,0.22,13.64,0,43.66,0.23
ARM_Agarak_Mdv:I1660,21.62,0,1.19,0.5,11.33,6.33,1.03,0,12.57,0,45.05,0.4
ARM_Aghitu_Anc_father.or.son.of.I1636:I1637,24.29,0,2.96,0.64,7.02,10.09,0,0,7.95,0,46.36,0.71
ARM_Aghitu_Anc:I1636,21.4,0,0.12,0,8.99,5.01,0.53,0.76,13.76,0,48.67,0.75
ARM_Aghitu_Anc:I1639,17.85,1.58,0,0,10,6.69,0.45,0,14.25,0,48.29,0.9
ARM_Aknashen_N:I3931,28.44,0,0,0,4.43,0,0,0,13.09,0.52,52.4,1.12
ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA_brother.I14619:I14065,23.2,0.82,1.78,0,6.81,16.86,0,0,5.82,0,44.03,0.67
ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA_mother.I14618:I14621,21.31,0.2,1.41,0,7.85,17.66,1.15,0,8.35,0.79,40.63,0.65
ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA_son.I14065.son.I14066:I16216,15.85,0,0,0,6.58,19.77,0,0,16.29,0,41.51,0
ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA_son.I14603.son.I14619:I14617,23.2,0,0,0.71,6.2,18.95,0,0,4.87,0,44.77,1.3
ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA:I14066,24.59,0.29,0,0.83,8.78,16.85,0.84,1.51,5.93,0,40.22,0.16
ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA:I14588,23.72,0,1.8,0,7.54,18.45,0.88,0,6.17,0,41.37,0.07
ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA:I14601,22.87,0.24,0,0,6.73,17.49,0,1.43,6.82,0,43.96,0.47
ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA:I14602,22.3,0.03,0,0,6.05,19.14,0,0,5.74,0,45.65,1.1
ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA:I14603,23.34,0.4,0,0,9.12,16.63,0.18,0,6.41,0.01,43.2,0.71
ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA:I14605,24.52,1.22,0,0,5.37,12.39,0,0,4.04,0,52.47,0
ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA:I14606,22.49,0,0,0,6.09,12.39,2.49,0.39,9.19,0.58,45.67,0.71
ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA:I14618,22.02,0.13,0,0,8.24,17.69,0,0,8.7,0.4,41.8,1.02
ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA:I14619,23.64,0.44,0,0,7.68,15.59,0,0,5.73,0,45.36,1.57
ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA:I14620,23.82,0,0,0,5.28,17.37,1.3,0,7.17,0,44.2,0.86
ARM_Berkaber_KuraAraxes_EBA_father.or.son.I14343:I14340,24.44,0,0.58,0,3.95,6.71,1.45,0.28,8.53,0,53.16,0.91
ARM_Berkaber_KuraAraxes_EBA:I14339,21.48,0.48,0,0,1.89,8.84,1.84,0,9.12,0,55.96,0.39
ARM_Berkaber_KuraAraxes_EBA:I14341,25.09,0,0,0,5.17,4.52,1.46,0,7.48,0,55.77,0.51
ARM_Berkaber_KuraAraxes_EBA:I14343,27.12,0,0.16,0,6.66,6.72,1.13,0.28,7.55,0,50.25,0.12
ARM_Berkaber_KuraAraxes_EBA:I15132,26.7,0.48,0.23,0,4.59,4.53,0.03,0,10.55,0,51.82,1.08
ARM_Berkaber_KuraAraxes_EBA:I16920,26.45,0,0,0,1.74,8.28,0,0,11.76,0,51.77,0
ARM_Black_Fortress_LBA:I18162,22.11,0.4,1.6,0,10.25,14.29,0,0,9.09,0,42.01,0.26
ARM_Black_Fortress_LBA:I18163,22.28,0,1.52,0,10.98,22.21,1.7,0.18,6.36,0,34.28,0.49
ARM_Black_Fortress_LBA:I18164,22.42,0,0,0,11.21,4.32,0,0,8.77,0,52.48,0.8
ARM_Black_Fortress_LBA:I18165,26.41,0.37,0,0.63,5.39,16.52,0,0.04,7.27,0,42.43,0.95
ARM_Black_Fortress_LBA:I18247,17.86,2.11,2.39,0,10.16,11.66,3.78,0.72,12.35,3.03,35.93,0
ARM_Black_Fortress_LBA:I18248,24.36,0,0.15,0,9.27,14.73,0,0.33,10.36,0.48,40.33,0
ARM_Bover_EIA:I16116,24.09,0,0,0.38,6.62,16.3,2.53,0,7.02,0,42.36,0.7
ARM_Bover_Urartian:I16117,24.77,0.23,0,0,7.06,12.56,1.18,0,6.36,0,46.6,1.23
ARM_Bover_Urartian:I16376,24.31,0,0,0,4.78,14.9,0,1.33,9.62,0,45.06,0
ARM_Bragdzor_EIA_father.I16536.brother.I16553:I16546,19.84,0,0,0.83,0,7.73,0.97,0,7.11,0,62.39,1.12
ARM_Bragdzor_EIA_lc:I16547,35.71,0,2.74,0,18.68,22.35,0,0,0,6.06,9.37,5.08
ARM_Bragdzor_EIA:I16536,20.65,0,0,1.94,0.98,17.1,0,0.63,6.37,0,51.73,0.61
ARM_Bragdzor_EIA:I16553,30.75,0,3.95,0,6.99,7.85,0,0,5.33,5.24,39.89,0
ARM_Brardzryal_Urartian:I14051,28.34,0.06,0.57,0.63,10.41,13.83,1.57,0.57,5.26,0,38.75,0
ARM_Brardzryal_Urartian:I14052,24.15,0.07,0,0.09,10.23,19.72,0,0,9.53,0,35.27,0.93
ARM_Brardzryal_Urartian:I14053,21.12,0,0,0,5.33,18.09,1.86,0,5.69,0.15,46.76,1
ARM_Brardzryal_Urartian:I14054,20.15,0.5,0.48,0,9.3,18.56,0.9,0.29,6.77,0.04,42.63,0.37
ARM_Brardzryal_Urartian:I14055,21.6,0,0,0,3.76,17.61,0,0.04,11.22,2.14,42.43,1.19
ARM_Brardzryal_Urartian:I14056,26.48,0.75,3.3,0,7,13.9,0,0,6.61,0,41.95,0
ARM_Brardzryal_Urartian:I14057,24.76,0.31,1.95,0,3.98,16.06,1.56,0,6.91,0,43.94,0.54
ARM_Dzori_Gekh_LBA:I16120,17.65,1.58,0,0,5.28,8.22,0.72,0,13.02,0.86,52.14,0.52
ARM_Harjis_LateUrartian:I18159,19.56,0,0,1,3.52,23.45,0,0,8.39,0,43.67,0.41
ARM_Harjis_LateUrartian:I18160,21.45,0.71,2.1,0,8.84,15.48,0.24,0,11.04,0.31,39.53,0.3
ARM_Harjis_LateUrartian:I18161,22.32,1.01,0.83,0,4.38,17.65,1,0.79,9.34,0,42.68,0
ARM_Harjis_LateUrartian:I18236,24.7,0.09,1.94,0,7.74,15.19,1.99,0,8.82,0,39.38,0.16
ARM_Harjis_LateUrartian:I18237,22.42,0,2.2,0.18,9.56,14.68,2.35,0,8.94,0,39.67,0
ARM_Harjis_LateUrartian:I18238,25.07,0.48,0,0.4,6.7,17.15,0.6,0,8.54,0,40.9,0.17
ARM_Karashamb_EIA:I19337,27.94,0.23,0,0,9.27,15.84,0,0,8.51,0,34.31,3.91
ARM_Karashamb_EIA:I19343,26,1.62,0,0,3.62,12.08,3.64,0,10.34,0,42.08,0.61
ARM_Karashamb_EIA:I19349,24.6,0.68,0.54,0,6.01,18.07,0.11,0,5.88,1.58,41.24,1.29
ARM_Karashamb_EIA:I19353,25.3,0,0,0,6.72,17.77,2.11,0.33,4.67,0,42.46,0.64
ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I16217,25.96,0,0,0.58,3.38,19.89,0.66,0,6.45,0,42.57,0.51
ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I16220,22.01,0,1.4,0,10.61,14.17,0.27,0.25,10.19,1.86,39.24,0
ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19331,26.94,1.17,0.96,0,5.65,18.6,1.62,0,7.09,0,37.91,0.07
ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19332,23.66,1.37,0,0,6.49,17.77,0,0,9.83,0,40.4,0.48
ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19333,22.3,0.14,0.18,0,8.7,15.2,0,0,8.61,0,43.64,1.23
ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19334,20.63,0.44,0,0,8.3,17.62,0.71,0.61,7.46,0,43.81,0.41
ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19335,23.83,0.03,0.27,0,9.7,15.42,1.79,0.19,4.76,0,43.51,0.51
ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19336,25.63,1.27,0,0,7.91,14.65,0,1.1,7.2,0,42.24,0
ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19338,25.39,1.3,0,0,7.98,10.79,0,0.69,6.38,0,46.65,0.81
ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19339,23.64,0,0,1.18,8.23,16.89,2.04,0.23,7.43,0,39.69,0.67
ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19340,24.08,0,10.66,0,6.15,20.44,0,0.35,0,0,38.01,0.32
ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19341,22.35,0.18,0,0,10.33,16.67,2.13,0.88,8.02,0,39.45,0
ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19342,21.66,1.02,0,0.88,8.02,20.33,0,0.14,6.31,0,40.94,0.71
ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19344,22.86,0.26,0,0,4.94,16.53,1.68,0,7.71,0,45.42,0.59
ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19345,24.77,0,0,0.01,6.82,17.69,1.57,0,7.02,0,41.83,0.28
ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19346,23.31,0,1.42,0.11,7.24,11.66,0,0,7.91,0,48.04,0.32
ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19347,22.14,0,1.17,0,9.78,14.63,0.96,0.51,6.82,0.52,43.48,0
ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19348,24.96,0.59,0.2,0.1,9.14,17.59,0.78,0.76,6.79,0,38.76,0.33
ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19350,20.43,0.46,2.25,0,6.35,15.3,3.17,0.05,10.98,0,41.01,0
ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19351,19.36,0.66,2.53,0.45,9.45,14.87,0.23,0.65,12.15,0,39.58,0.07
ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19352,27.2,0.79,0,0.39,7.62,14.38,0.62,0,7.44,0,40.76,0.78
ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19354,22.5,0,0,0,8.64,15.66,0.94,0.36,7.52,0,44.17,0.21
ARM_Karmir_Blur_Anc:I16119,21.89,0.75,0,1,8.97,7.14,0.18,1.6,13.13,0,45.34,0
ARM_Karmir_Blur_EIA:I11853,13.23,0,0,2.52,1.65,15.71,0,0,11.02,0,55.88,0
ARM_Karmir_Blur_EIA:I11855,24.81,0.11,0.45,0,5.7,18.69,0.73,0.39,7.29,0,40.96,0.88
ARM_Karmir_Blur_EIA:I13031,25.92,0,4.5,0,6.78,12.87,2.37,0,10.05,0,37.5,0
ARM_Karmir_Blur_EIA:I13032,18.98,3.71,6.19,0,1.56,10.67,0,0,7.48,1.06,50.34,0
ARM_Karmir_Blur_EIA:I3938,18.71,0,0.91,0.46,5.05,15.37,0,0,8.75,0,49.34,1.41
ARM_Karmir_Blur_EIA:I3944,26.37,1.88,0,0,8.14,13.03,0.75,0,9.21,0,40.62,0
ARM_Karmir_Blur_Urartian_outlier:I13035,18.08,0,0,3.81,6.63,7.53,0,0,21.65,0,42.31,0
ARM_Karmir_Blur_Urartian:I16118,19.97,0.12,0,0.55,10.26,18.81,1.43,0,6.53,0,41.61,0.73
ARM_Karmir_Blur_Urartian:I3890,20.64,0,4.7,0,9.35,15.35,0,0.79,5.05,0,43.22,0.89
ARM_Karmir_Blur_Urartian:I3892,18.65,0.18,2.78,2.52,0.97,28.18,0,1.01,8.61,0,37.1,0
ARM_Karmir_Blur_Urartian:I3945,20.45,0.74,0,0,11.15,2.52,3.87,0,11.15,0,50.12,0
ARM_Karnut_EIA:I16707,26.18,1.14,1.96,0,9.62,22.5,0,0,5.71,0,32.72,0.18
ARM_Karnut_KuraAraxes_EBA_lc:I17499,6.01,4.58,5.22,0,0,0,0,0,8.27,0,67.6,8.31
ARM_Karnut_KuraAraxes_EBA:I13599,25.09,0,0,0,1.62,6.43,0.54,0,10.85,0,54.73,0.73
ARM_Karnut_KuraAraxes_EBA:I14812,20.08,0,0,0,8.63,9.91,0,0,12.03,0,48.92,0.44
ARM_Karnut_KuraAraxes_EBA:I16706,31.35,0,0,0,0,8.81,3.17,0,0,0,56.67,0
ARM_Keti_Anc:I17308,18.53,0,0,0,10.02,10.57,0,0.05,16.29,1.66,42.12,0.77
ARM_Keti_EIA:I17182,24.13,0,0,0,8.54,21.62,0,0.47,5.22,0,39.41,0.61
ARM_Keti_EIA:I18478,26.95,0,1.2,0,8.03,18.97,2.02,0,4.92,0,37.4,0.5
ARM_Keti_LBA:I17183,21.04,0,0,0.68,10.44,17.25,3.11,0,7.6,0,39.24,0.66
ARM_Keti_Urartian:I17184,16.78,0,0.44,0,3.15,6.53,0.64,0,8.2,0.75,62.49,1.01
ARM_Lchashen_LBA:I18166,22.87,0.41,0.29,0,10.03,19.89,2.52,1.02,8.09,0,34.79,0.1
ARM_Lchashen_LBA:I18167,26.22,0.7,0,0,8.88,16.51,0.69,0,6.27,0,39.37,1.36
ARM_Lchashen_LBA:I18168,22.98,0.99,0.06,0,9.28,15.23,1.7,0,6.75,0,42.46,0.54
ARM_Lchashen_LBA:I18267,23.03,0,0.66,1.79,9.06,15.49,0,0,9.73,0,39.71,0.53
ARM_Lchashen_LBA:I18269,21.71,0,0,0.16,9.17,19.88,2.39,0,4.17,0,41.47,1.05
ARM_Lchashen_LBA:I18270,21.82,1.43,0.41,1.2,3.16,15.85,0,0,8.73,0,47.34,0.06
ARM_Lchashen_LBA:I18271,25.05,0.5,0,0,7.99,18.22,1.91,0,8.4,0.75,36.46,0.73
ARM_Lchashen_LBA:I18272,19.33,0,1.16,0,7.72,18.9,0.89,0.35,7.73,0,43.92,0
ARM_Lchashen_LBA:I18273,25.93,1.47,1.74,0,9.02,6.53,0,0.14,13.4,0,41.77,0
ARM_Lchashen_LBA:I18274,22.91,0.67,0,0,6.04,17.22,0,0,9,0,44.03,0.12
ARM_Lchashen_LBA:I18275,24.55,0.6,1.62,0,7.53,16.96,0.2,0,4.12,0,44.31,0.1
ARM_Lchashen_LBA:I18276,21.32,0,0,0,9.55,18.64,1.6,0,8.47,0,40.28,0.15
ARM_Lchashen_LBA:I18277,22.39,1.61,0.42,0,9.88,19.55,0.45,0,5.91,0,39.79,0
ARM_Lchashen_LBA:I18278,21.67,0,0.97,0,10.88,13.16,0,0,8.8,0.57,43.47,0.48
ARM_Lchashen_LBA:I18279,25.42,0.2,0,0,9.13,16.06,0.59,0,7.3,0.23,40.84,0.24
ARM_Lchashen_LBA:I18280,22,0.59,0,0.16,6.84,16.62,1.84,0,5.98,0,45.33,0.62
ARM_Lori_Berd_LateUrartian_A:I13947,22.97,1.92,0,0,10.31,17.46,0,0,6.71,0.58,39.57,0.49
ARM_Lori_Berd_LateUrartian_B:I13949,24.08,0,0.16,7.2,1.65,22.13,3.24,0,14.6,0,26.95,0
ARM_Lori_Berd_LBA_lc:I15663,0,0,2.89,0,18.81,30.08,8.65,0,21.33,0,18.25,0
ARM_Lori_Berd_LBA:I13948,27.96,0.36,0,0,6.48,15.31,0.3,0,6.53,0.22,42.68,0.17
ARM_Lori_Berd_LBA:I16196,25.69,1.41,1.71,0.44,9.13,14.42,0,0,5.4,0,41.24,0.56
ARM_Masis_Blur_N:I3930,9.61,0,0.37,0.93,12.84,0,0,1.4,19.78,0,55.06,0
ARM_Nerkin_Getashen_LBA_outlier:I15730,28.74,0,11.29,0,0,8.8,0,0,11.55,0,39.62,0
ARM_Nerkin_Getashen_LBA_son.I18166:I15731,20.31,0,0,0,11.33,21.78,0,0,3.63,0,41.91,1.05
ARM_Nerkin_Getashen_LBA:I15729,21.62,1.7,0,0,2.69,17.28,0,0,11.56,0,44.39,0.74
ARM_Nerkin_Getashen_LBA:I15732,25.41,0,0,0.42,8.09,16.03,1.07,0,7.27,0,40.9,0.82
ARM_Nerkin_Getashen_LBA:I15733,23.11,0,0,0,6.65,18.64,0,0,7.78,0,43.03,0.78
ARM_Nerkin_Getashen_LBA:I15734,27.51,0.6,0,0,10.61,17,1.89,0.82,5.97,0,35.59,0
ARM_Nerkin_Getashen_LBA:I15748,25.98,0,0,0,8.25,18.48,1.54,0,7.32,0,37.81,0.62
ARM_Nerkin_Getashen_LBA:I15749,22.51,0.34,0,0,6.84,19.08,1.47,0,7.43,0,41.94,0.41
ARM_Nerkin_Getashen_LBA:I15750,23.77,1.43,0,0,12.17,19.29,1.58,0,4.07,0,36.62,1.07
ARM_Noratus_Anc:I19322,19.39,0,2.66,0.3,13.91,2.81,0.21,1.12,17.44,0,42.17,0
ARM_Noratus_Anc:I19327,19.81,0.51,0.56,0.67,9.76,5.56,0,0,11.44,0,50.67,1.01
ARM_Noratus_EIA:I18468,23.08,0.27,0,0,6.77,19.32,0.59,0.34,9.55,0,39.32,0.77
ARM_Noratus_EIA:I18469,23.54,0.4,0,0,8.69,21.66,1.62,0,7.09,0,36.33,0.68
ARM_Noratus_EIA:I18470,23.95,0.27,0,0,9.29,16.48,0.61,0,7.9,0,40.67,0.82
ARM_Noratus_EIA:I18481,25,0,0,0,8.88,17.79,0,1.15,7.58,0,39.59,0
ARM_Noratus_EIA:I19321,25.73,0,0,0.66,8.29,18.92,0.84,0,6.25,0,38.44,0.88
ARM_Noratus_EIA:I19324,22.52,0.37,0,0,9.85,19.11,1.37,0,4.94,0,41.19,0.65
ARM_Noratus_EIA:I19328,23.26,0.09,0.88,0.69,7.28,16.5,0.52,0,6.93,0,42.6,1.24
ARM_Noratus_LBA_mother.I18276:I18483,20.74,0,0,0,7.79,19.49,0.43,0,8.45,0,42.52,0.58
ARM_Noratus_LBA:I18467,22.4,0.98,0,0.24,4,19.89,0.1,0,7.25,0,44.99,0.16
ARM_Noratus_LBA:I18472,19.39,1.29,1.59,0.33,11.48,13.85,0.7,0.29,8.84,0.01,42.24,0
ARM_Noratus_LBA:I18479,22.73,0.71,0.01,0,4.74,20.53,2.02,0,7.21,0,41.21,0.85
ARM_Noratus_LBA:I18486,21,0,0.64,0.24,9.51,18.58,0.23,0,7.46,0,42.14,0.21
ARM_Noratus_LBA:I18487,22.04,0.33,0,0,9.58,17.65,1.12,0,6.9,0,41.78,0.61
ARM_Noratus_LBA:I19323,24.13,1.94,0,0,8.36,19.38,0.71,0,6.29,0,38.48,0.71
ARM_Noratus_LBA:I19325,22.73,0.72,0,0,8.53,16.68,0,0,8.65,0,41.73,0.96
ARM_Noratus_LBA:I19326,25.17,0.14,0,0,10.02,18.51,1.53,0,7.79,0,36.44,0.4
ARM_Noratus_LBA:I19329,23.92,0.3,0,0,8.1,19.47,0.95,0,7.73,0,38.96,0.57
ARM_Pijut_LBA:I16537,24.74,0,0.57,0,7.62,15.52,1.07,0.42,6.62,0,42.6,0.84
ARM_Pijut_Urartian:I16191,22.68,0.64,0,0.4,9.62,12.93,1.47,0,10.63,0,41.07,0.55
ARM_Pijut_Urartian:I16193,23.79,0,0,0,4.76,17.04,0.51,0.79,6.94,0,45.54,0.62
ARM_Pijut_Urartian:I16194,22.28,0,0,0,7.67,15.63,0.06,0.57,5.77,0.8,46.29,0.93
ARM_Pijut_Urartian:I16195,26.15,0,0,0,7.89,19.86,0,0.63,3.91,0,40.26,1.29
ARM_Pijut_Urartian:I17181,20.81,1.55,1.43,0,7.92,18.33,0,0.73,4.99,0,44.25,0
ARM_Pijut_UrartianPeriod_son.I17181:I16219,22.15,0,0,0.55,9.94,11.82,0.47,0,5.03,0.78,47.59,1.66
ARM_Sarukhan_Anc:I20437,18.42,0.3,1.04,0,9,4.97,0.84,0.12,15.47,0.1,49.36,0.38
ARM_Sarukhan_Anc:I20438,26.27,0,0,0,10.6,5,1.98,0,13.96,0.32,41.32,0.56
ARM_Sarukhan_Anc:I20442,16.53,0,1.48,0.13,12.25,3.06,0.56,1.24,15.84,0.36,48.55,0
ARM_Sarukhan_EIA:I20439,24.16,0,0,0,7.39,14.11,1.81,0,7.2,0,44.94,0.39
ARM_Sarukhan_EIA:I20441,21.97,0.24,0.81,0,10.91,15.62,1.21,0,6.66,0,42.24,0.34
ARM_Sarukhan_EIA:I20443,24.49,0.09,0,0,7.31,18.76,0.98,0,7.36,0.45,40.24,0.32
ARM_Sarukhan_LBA:I20440,26.79,0.92,0,0,8.71,17.17,0.19,0,5.02,0,39.84,1.38
ARM_Sarukhan_unknown:I20436,25.62,1.14,0,0,11.14,18.18,0,0,6.5,0,36.82,0.6
ARM_Sarukhan_unknown:I20444,25.75,0,0,0,8.87,15.24,0,0,8.09,0,41.45,0.59
ARM_Shengavit_KuraAraxes_EBA:I14346,20.24,0,0,0,5.8,12.3,0,3.95,10.5,0,47.22,0
ARM_Talin_KuraAraxes_EBA_mother.or.daughter.of.I1658:I1657,22.15,0,0.6,0,11.18,4.87,0.96,0,7.17,0,51.94,1.13
ARM_Tavshut_Trialeti_MBA:I14813,21.8,1.44,0,0,6.07,24.74,0,0,7.31,0,38.18,0.46
ARM_Tekhut_LBA:I16554,21.95,0,0,0,4.76,14.98,0.32,0.21,5.84,0,51.09,0.86
ARM_Yerevan2_unknown:I10252,20.11,0,0.88,0,9.25,7.2,0.81,0,11.53,0,50.23,0
Armenia_EBA:I1634:Lazaridis_2016,16.98,1.71,0.51,0,13.6,14.97,1.22,0,8.16,0,42.28,0.56
Armenia_EBA:I1658:Lazaridis_2016,23.47,0,0.28,0,7.82,5.85,1.05,0,7.33,0,52.89,1.31
Armenia_LBA:RISE396:Allentoft_2015,21.01,0,0,0,6.81,25.6,0,0,9.62,0,36.97,0
Armenia_LBA:RISE397:Allentoft_2015,21.25,0,0,0,16.48,23.51,0,0,1.62,0,37.13,0.01
Armenia_LBA:RISE407:Allentoft_2015,28.33,0,0.69,0,12.13,23.78,0,0,2.51,0,31.83,0.73
Armenia_LBA:RISE408:Allentoft_2015,28.13,0,0,0,11.37,26.95,0.37,0,1.23,0,31.94,0
Armenia_LBA:RISE412:Allentoft_2015,11.73,0,0,0,5.19,21.74,0,0,6.78,0,54.57,0
Armenia_MBA:RISE413:Allentoft_2015,24.72,0,2.77,0,18.39,20.9,0,3.74,6.87,0,22.6,0
Armenia_MBA:RISE416:Allentoft_2015,34.36,0,0,0,31.72,15.75,0,0,0,0,18.17,0
Armenia_MBA:RISE423:Allentoft_2015,22.08,0,1.29,1.34,9.55,23.37,0,0,7.32,0,33.39,1.67
Armenia_MLChL:I1407:Lazaridis_2016,20.71,1.25,0,0,15.85,8.35,0.65,0.22,11.2,0,40.88,0.91
Armenia_MLChL:I1409:Lazaridis_2016,20.89,0,0.9,0,2.72,15.82,0,1.75,7.86,0,49.18,0.86
Armenia_MLChL:I1631:Lazaridis_2016,14.99,0.26,0,0,12.86,20.02,2.26,0,9.77,0,38.96,0.89
Armenia_MLChL:I1632:Lazaridis_2016,16.77,0.37,0,0,18.24,11.39,1.83,0.37,10.13,0.2,40.07,0.62

 

[Jovialis]

I'm interested to resolve the fit for cypriots, but right now I have to take my family to the fair. I'll try to work on it later tonight.

 

[Jovialis]

Here's Cyprus too:

Cyprus:Cyprus1,5.59,0,2.08,0,20.33,3.08,0.09,0,17.89,0.21,50.72,0
Cyprus:Cyprus2,9.96,0,3.2,0,21.58,4.03,0,0.99,18.48,0,41.62,0.15
Cyprus:Cyprus3,8.64,0,1.14,0,19.54,5.45,0,0,16.78,0.18,48.26,0
Cyprus:Cyprus4,4.87,0,2.63,0.45,15.59,7.55,0,0,17.27,0,51.64,0
Cyprus:Cyprus5,5.26,0.82,3.26,0,19.47,5.3,0,0,14.93,0,50.95,0
Cyprus:Cyprus6,5.89,0,1.08,0,21.59,3.31,0.07,0,17.82,0.24,50.01,0
Cyprus:Cyprus7,7.07,0,0.93,0.41,21.52,2.38,0,0,17.66,0,50.03,0
Cyprus:Cyprus8,5.33,0,0.47,0,20.92,4.07,0.87,0.66,18.79,0,48.89,0
Cyprus:Cyprus9,5.55,0,2.12,0,19.73,5.63,0.94,0.51,16.73,0,48.79,0
Cyprus:Cyprus10,4.62,0,2.85,0,21.7,5.16,0,0.76,15.97,0,48.94,0
Cyprus:Cyprus11,6.15,0,1.56,0.83,19.31,4.48,0,0.76,17.54,0.33,49.05,0
Cyprus:Cyprus12,8.06,0,3.67,0,19.16,2.71,0,0,18.44,0,47.7,0.26

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

Here you go. I didn't have time to sort them, but the BA samples are in the list:

Dodecad:


Armenian fixes the fit problem.


I didnt buy G25 so here are the official Cypriot samples
G25:

You can see here that Cypriots only plot coincidentally with Isparta and Central Anatolians because they are a mix of Mycenaean + South East Anatolia + Levant + Armenian and that makes them plot in the Middle, which is Anatolian Isparta/Ovaoren etc.

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

I'm interested to resolve the fit for cypriots, but right now I have to take my family to the fair. I'll try to work on it later tonight.

Can you send Mycenaean samples before you go? Do you have a link for all ancient samples in a pastebin or txt so you wont have to find them for me?

 

[Jovialis]

Can you send Mycenaean samples before you go? Do you have a link for all ancient samples in a pastebin or txt so you wont have to find them for me?

I already left, but you can find them in the aDNA link in my signature. Typically it is the first post by me on the page