Distribution of E1b1b subclades in Italy (Boattini et al.)
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Nobody1
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No there is not a mix up,
The Iapyges of Apulia are Illyrians [coming from the Balkans] and pos. stemm from the Iapydes (Iapodes) in Illyria;
Herodotus, Strabo, Polybius all clearly account the Iapyges (Messapii - Dauni - Peucenii) in Southern Italy;
Herodotus according to the Greek Mythology accounts the Messapi to be Cretans brothers of Icarus;
But the Messapic language is Indo-European;
The Iapyges [Dauni - Messapii] are also Archaeologically attested all across Apulia; also their Linguistic inscriptions are all across Apulia. - Prof. Whatmough
I think you are mixing the Piceni with the Peucenti;
the Piceni were Sabellian [Umbrian] and the Peucenti were Illyrian [Iapyges]
Yes, but this is Mythology
Messapic is def. Indo-European;
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@ Nobody,
how certain you are hat Iapodes and Iapyges are the same?
Καλαβρια Calabria if we exclude the Greek Καλος+φρεαρ (Βρυα), then we see Thracian -Bria.
messapians we see mess- a common we found in Peloponese Messenia, Crete Messara etc.
we know that Messapians spoke an IE language which today small vocabulary survived in Aromani, Romanian, and Albanian, since they moved to Balkans from Messapia.
Strabo mentions about Iapodes that they lived and tatoo like Getans, but they were armed like Celts and they eat zea bread something that also Greeks did, especially in campaigns (Ζειδωρον + Οψον)
how certain you are hat Iapodes and Iapyges are the same?
Καλαβρια Calabria if we exclude the Greek Καλος+φρεαρ (Βρυα), then we see Thracian -Bria.
messapians we see mess- a common we found in Peloponese Messenia, Crete Messara etc.
we know that Messapians spoke an IE language which today small vocabulary survived in Aromani, Romanian, and Albanian, since they moved to Balkans from Messapia.
Strabo mentions about Iapodes that they lived and tatoo like Getans, but they were armed like Celts and they eat zea bread something that also Greeks did, especially in campaigns (Ζειδωρον + Οψον)
zanipolo
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Iapodes became Illyro-thracian people as the thracians pushed from east to west to stop the incursion of the celts from the west. the illyrians by strabo times where already celtinized
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E3b seems to be found in its highest frequencies in Genoa (24%) most of this of probable Greek colonial origin. Also found in 27% in Reggio Calabria, 20% in Casarano (Apulia) , 26% in Brindisi (Apulia). 25% in Matera (Basilicata) where J frequencies are low, but only R1b and e3b are higher. Also found in 25% of men on the Molise/Apulia border and a high of 36% of males from Altamura have E3b.
Angela
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How can Genova be highest when you list areas where it is higher? 
And Genova was not a Greek colony on the scale of Massalia. All that is known to us is that there was a Greek trading center there, although the Etruscans were probably there first. We also know that the Cardial Neolithic was strong in Liguria, and E-V13 adna has been found in an ancient Cardial Neolithic site along the northern Mediterranean coast. Genova is sampled for obvious reasons, as it is the largest city and capital of Liguria, but a well done sampling to track ancient movements would not take samples from this kind of city in my opinion. (over a million inhabitants). The People of the British Isles study, for example, strictly took samples from rural areas. In the particular case of Genova, it was also sacked and burned to the ground numerous times, and a majority of it's people died during the Black Plague, so I don't think it's a particularly good sample site.
The highest level in Italy, looking at all the studies, is Piazza Armerina, in central East Sicily, where it is found in 43% of the males according to one study. Unfortunately, there is no breakdown by subclade.
I think it's very problematic trying to assign ydna to ancient tribes mentioned in mythology or very early histories by looking at modern distributions of ydna. There's been some changes since then. Also, even the Boattini study didn't drill down by sub-clade far enough. There were most probably multiple waves of E1b1b into Italy, and each would have come not only at a different time, but probably from different areas. The only possible way to figure it out, absent a lot of adna, would be to have really precise and dated subclades.
Just generally, I think that the vast majority of E1b1b in Italy is due to the Neolithic, Greek colonization where it occurred, perhaps the Phoenicians, and yes, movements in later history from the non-Greek areas of the Balkans. Even in the Neolithic, there is strong evidence that the Neolithic came to Apulia from the Balkans, for example. The Neolithic of north east Italy is also tied to the Balkans. That movement continued. In fact, the only even partly significant gene flow from the outside into Italy since about 500 B.C., is, according to Ralph and Coop, from the Balkans.
I do think there is something to be said about separating out E-V13 from the other subclades. I say this because it seems to me from looking at all the data that there is much more diversity in terms of E1b1b in the center (starting in southern Tuscany) and south of Italy than in the north, where it is almost all E-V13. And I don't think we can attribute it all to the Greeks; E-V13 is present in the shadow of the Alps in respectable quantities. (9.5% in Como, and 6.5% in Treviso, with even Vicenza getting 12.5%) Most of it, I think, is Neolithic, or was swept in by Indo-European movement, part of which probably also came via the Balkans. Just as an aside, it's interesting that total E-M78 +M123 is higher in N.E. Italy than in North West Italy and Central Italy, and just slightly lower than in southern Italy.
The other thing that I think might be important is to check the varieties of E1b1b in the Balkans. I'm not as familiar with those figures. I wonder what non-E-V13 clades show up there? That might help in figuring out when and from where some, at least, of these other clades originated. Was it a slightly different stream of the Neolithic? Was it indeed the Phoenicians, although I've always considered them to be minor players, since all they really did was set up trading centers.
I would be tempted to see these other clades as relics of North African movement into southern Italy (raids went all the way up to Rome) by the Moors, were it not for the extremely low levels of E-M81, *the* Berber clade, which ranges in Sicily from a low of .7% in Cruciani, to a high of 5.5% in Semino. The settlement of Sicily was overwhelmingly by Berbers, not Arabians or Levantines. Either Sicily was so densely populated that their numbers were not enough to make much of an impact, or they were indeed mostly killed and expelled as the histories say, or the proportions of ydna E in North Africa were very different in 800 A.D. than they are now.
The other thing that strikes me about Sicily, and the south, is that E-V13, *the* Greek clade, is not more dominant, which actually makes sense if you think about the fact that the Greek colonies were sporadically situated along the coasts. I think there were Neolithic varieties other than E-V13 already there in Sicily when the Greeks came, and probably some E-V13 as well. I doubt it will actually ever be unraveled.
There's also support for the fact that a lot of this is Neolithic, I think, in that there are a lot of these minor subclades in very interior, mountainous places like Matera. It has the feel of people being pushed into less attractive lands by succeeding migrations. I'm not sure whether Piazza Armerina in Sicily is a good example of that. The area was settled in the Neolithic, but the town itself was only founded by the "Lombards" (i.e. northern Italians of various varieties) during the Norman era...and yet, as I said, it's E1b1b reaches 43%. Perhaps some of it was from Moors who fled to the interior, as the Lombard towns were located in areas that needed to be "pacified". It's impossible to tell how much is attributable to that versus the Neolithic without a very detailed break down of the E1b1b in the area and comparison to other parts of the Mediterranean. A lot of adna would be nice too.
And Genova was not a Greek colony on the scale of Massalia. All that is known to us is that there was a Greek trading center there, although the Etruscans were probably there first. We also know that the Cardial Neolithic was strong in Liguria, and E-V13 adna has been found in an ancient Cardial Neolithic site along the northern Mediterranean coast. Genova is sampled for obvious reasons, as it is the largest city and capital of Liguria, but a well done sampling to track ancient movements would not take samples from this kind of city in my opinion. (over a million inhabitants). The People of the British Isles study, for example, strictly took samples from rural areas. In the particular case of Genova, it was also sacked and burned to the ground numerous times, and a majority of it's people died during the Black Plague, so I don't think it's a particularly good sample site. The highest level in Italy, looking at all the studies, is Piazza Armerina, in central East Sicily, where it is found in 43% of the males according to one study. Unfortunately, there is no breakdown by subclade.
I think it's very problematic trying to assign ydna to ancient tribes mentioned in mythology or very early histories by looking at modern distributions of ydna. There's been some changes since then. Also, even the Boattini study didn't drill down by sub-clade far enough. There were most probably multiple waves of E1b1b into Italy, and each would have come not only at a different time, but probably from different areas. The only possible way to figure it out, absent a lot of adna, would be to have really precise and dated subclades.
Just generally, I think that the vast majority of E1b1b in Italy is due to the Neolithic, Greek colonization where it occurred, perhaps the Phoenicians, and yes, movements in later history from the non-Greek areas of the Balkans. Even in the Neolithic, there is strong evidence that the Neolithic came to Apulia from the Balkans, for example. The Neolithic of north east Italy is also tied to the Balkans. That movement continued. In fact, the only even partly significant gene flow from the outside into Italy since about 500 B.C., is, according to Ralph and Coop, from the Balkans.
I do think there is something to be said about separating out E-V13 from the other subclades. I say this because it seems to me from looking at all the data that there is much more diversity in terms of E1b1b in the center (starting in southern Tuscany) and south of Italy than in the north, where it is almost all E-V13. And I don't think we can attribute it all to the Greeks; E-V13 is present in the shadow of the Alps in respectable quantities. (9.5% in Como, and 6.5% in Treviso, with even Vicenza getting 12.5%) Most of it, I think, is Neolithic, or was swept in by Indo-European movement, part of which probably also came via the Balkans. Just as an aside, it's interesting that total E-M78 +M123 is higher in N.E. Italy than in North West Italy and Central Italy, and just slightly lower than in southern Italy.
The other thing that I think might be important is to check the varieties of E1b1b in the Balkans. I'm not as familiar with those figures. I wonder what non-E-V13 clades show up there? That might help in figuring out when and from where some, at least, of these other clades originated. Was it a slightly different stream of the Neolithic? Was it indeed the Phoenicians, although I've always considered them to be minor players, since all they really did was set up trading centers.
I would be tempted to see these other clades as relics of North African movement into southern Italy (raids went all the way up to Rome) by the Moors, were it not for the extremely low levels of E-M81, *the* Berber clade, which ranges in Sicily from a low of .7% in Cruciani, to a high of 5.5% in Semino. The settlement of Sicily was overwhelmingly by Berbers, not Arabians or Levantines. Either Sicily was so densely populated that their numbers were not enough to make much of an impact, or they were indeed mostly killed and expelled as the histories say, or the proportions of ydna E in North Africa were very different in 800 A.D. than they are now.
The other thing that strikes me about Sicily, and the south, is that E-V13, *the* Greek clade, is not more dominant, which actually makes sense if you think about the fact that the Greek colonies were sporadically situated along the coasts. I think there were Neolithic varieties other than E-V13 already there in Sicily when the Greeks came, and probably some E-V13 as well. I doubt it will actually ever be unraveled.
There's also support for the fact that a lot of this is Neolithic, I think, in that there are a lot of these minor subclades in very interior, mountainous places like Matera. It has the feel of people being pushed into less attractive lands by succeeding migrations. I'm not sure whether Piazza Armerina in Sicily is a good example of that. The area was settled in the Neolithic, but the town itself was only founded by the "Lombards" (i.e. northern Italians of various varieties) during the Norman era...and yet, as I said, it's E1b1b reaches 43%. Perhaps some of it was from Moors who fled to the interior, as the Lombard towns were located in areas that needed to be "pacified". It's impossible to tell how much is attributable to that versus the Neolithic without a very detailed break down of the E1b1b in the area and comparison to other parts of the Mediterranean. A lot of adna would be nice too.
adamo
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Sicily also has berberid E-M81 that crossed directly from western north-Africa, whereas the vast majority of E3b in Italy and the Balkans has the E-V13 signature. It's on the Iberian peninsula where E-M81 is define toy the more dominant variety.
Angela
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I agree. What's surprising is how little of that Berberid E-M81 Sicily actually has...a rough average of all the studies is about 2% isn't it? Even if some of the other clades of E-M78 could be connected directly to North Africa instead of both the North African and Sicilian clades stemming from the same Levantine Neolithic, the numbers are still lower than I expected.
E
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Yes, the capital, but cities are funny. In other parts of Bulgaria E-V13 is 30%+.
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I broke down a lot of these numbers but the auto-save betrayed me & I don't feel like doing it again. So I'll give you the highlights:
E-V13 actually increases in Italy from south to north. Yeah, you read that correctly. It constitutes 9% of all haplotypes in the north & only 7% in the south (according to this limited data). It increases both relative to E1b1b as a whole & in absolute numbers. It is also heavily concentrated in the east.
*It is worth noting that it appears to drop slightly in central Italy & its distribution is on the whole relatively uniform. However, virtually all of the data from central Italy in this set is from west-central or inland. In the east-central Italy, there are much higher E1b1b numbers, & I suspect nearly all of it is E-V13.
This pattern does not hold for E-M123, which increases as you head south. It is 1.5% in the north & doubles to nearly 3% in the south.
So-called non-Euro & non-Phoenician haplos (E-M81, E-V12, E-V22, E-V65) go from 1.5% in the north to 3% in central, to 3.5-4% in the south. Again, they don't track E-V13. Perusing the data casually, they also don't appear to track E-V13 from east to west. Observe Apulia for example. As E-V13 goes up, these other haplos actually appear to decrease both north to south & east to west. So, preliminarily speaking, there may be some relationship between E-M123 & *some* of these other E haplos. Indeed, they may be Phoenician or from the Levant.
I'm not sure this is what you'd expect to see if they all arrived together in Italy. I think you'd expect them to be correlated with one another. I haven't analyzed them carefully but as stated, a crude analysis tells me the other haplos correlate somewhat with one another (E-M81 probably incidentally because I think it's recent (Moorish invasion)).
What I'd really like to see is data on the frequency of these haplos in Greek dominated regions & the Balkans. The Greeks supposedly settled much of Sicily & yet there is very little E-V13 there. That is just weird. Molise, Abruzzo, Apulia that's where the E-V13 is, namely in the East. Indeed, E-V13 seems to be inversely correlated with Greek settlement. There is very little of it in the West (even in the South, in Sicily, etc!!!). That is very unexpected. This could be because gradual migration from Illyria/Balkans or some mesolithic/early neolithic settlement connection (same founding population) made a greater contribution to the modern regional gene-pool in Italy than more recent, minor Greek contribution in the west of the Italian peninsula. So, at least from what I'm seeing, I don't think there's any settlement relationship or correlation or any other type of link at all between E-V13 & the other E's in Italy. That is pretty surprising I'd say.
E-V13 actually increases in Italy from south to north. Yeah, you read that correctly. It constitutes 9% of all haplotypes in the north & only 7% in the south (according to this limited data). It increases both relative to E1b1b as a whole & in absolute numbers. It is also heavily concentrated in the east.
*It is worth noting that it appears to drop slightly in central Italy & its distribution is on the whole relatively uniform. However, virtually all of the data from central Italy in this set is from west-central or inland. In the east-central Italy, there are much higher E1b1b numbers, & I suspect nearly all of it is E-V13.
This pattern does not hold for E-M123, which increases as you head south. It is 1.5% in the north & doubles to nearly 3% in the south.
So-called non-Euro & non-Phoenician haplos (E-M81, E-V12, E-V22, E-V65) go from 1.5% in the north to 3% in central, to 3.5-4% in the south. Again, they don't track E-V13. Perusing the data casually, they also don't appear to track E-V13 from east to west. Observe Apulia for example. As E-V13 goes up, these other haplos actually appear to decrease both north to south & east to west. So, preliminarily speaking, there may be some relationship between E-M123 & *some* of these other E haplos. Indeed, they may be Phoenician or from the Levant.
I'm not sure this is what you'd expect to see if they all arrived together in Italy. I think you'd expect them to be correlated with one another. I haven't analyzed them carefully but as stated, a crude analysis tells me the other haplos correlate somewhat with one another (E-M81 probably incidentally because I think it's recent (Moorish invasion)).
What I'd really like to see is data on the frequency of these haplos in Greek dominated regions & the Balkans. The Greeks supposedly settled much of Sicily & yet there is very little E-V13 there. That is just weird. Molise, Abruzzo, Apulia that's where the E-V13 is, namely in the East. Indeed, E-V13 seems to be inversely correlated with Greek settlement. There is very little of it in the West (even in the South, in Sicily, etc!!!). That is very unexpected. This could be because gradual migration from Illyria/Balkans or some mesolithic/early neolithic settlement connection (same founding population) made a greater contribution to the modern regional gene-pool in Italy than more recent, minor Greek contribution in the west of the Italian peninsula. So, at least from what I'm seeing, I don't think there's any settlement relationship or correlation or any other type of link at all between E-V13 & the other E's in Italy. That is pretty surprising I'd say.
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ESpraguer
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Correct. Except Northern & Eastern Bulgaria are over 20% & some regions of Bulgaria are 30+%.
Northener
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For E-V22 there is this survey: http://e-v22.net/origin/
and
http://e-v22.net/descendants/
Please feel free to comment!
and
http://e-v22.net/descendants/
Please feel free to comment!
Of course they did not arrive together. Some of the mentioned E clades separated from the other 25000 years ago.
E-123 is the only clade for which it makes sense it came from Asia Minor. Contrary to that there are arguments which support European origin of E-V13.
Angela
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@ESpraguer,
It's unclear to me if you have seen and taken into account the subsequent paper by this group, Sarno et al.
This is a link to the paper. Scroll to the end to get to Supplementary Information and click on table 2 among others. They break out not only the E-V13 but the other subclades of E1b1b. Yes, there's more E-V13 in Calabria and Apulia etc., than there is in Sicily, but it's a difference of about 2-3%, which is easily explained by the fact that Sicily experienced a large migration from northern Italy during the Middle Ages, which would have cut into the older y dna distribution signature. Even so, there's still quite a bit in Sicily, and western Sicily more than eastern Sicily, at least according to this study.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096074#s5
Also, I don't know if you're aware that the TMRCA of the E-V13 in Italy is around 2300 years, which is coincidentally at the height of the Greek influence in Italy.
It's unclear to me if you have seen and taken into account the subsequent paper by this group, Sarno et al.
This is a link to the paper. Scroll to the end to get to Supplementary Information and click on table 2 among others. They break out not only the E-V13 but the other subclades of E1b1b. Yes, there's more E-V13 in Calabria and Apulia etc., than there is in Sicily, but it's a difference of about 2-3%, which is easily explained by the fact that Sicily experienced a large migration from northern Italy during the Middle Ages, which would have cut into the older y dna distribution signature. Even so, there's still quite a bit in Sicily, and western Sicily more than eastern Sicily, at least according to this study.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096074#s5
Also, I don't know if you're aware that the TMRCA of the E-V13 in Italy is around 2300 years, which is coincidentally at the height of the Greek influence in Italy.
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Of course they didn't all arrived together in Italy, and they aren't correlated with one another. Why are you focusing only about Italy? Those E1b1b are spread also in other Central and Southern European countries. And of course not the all the E-M81 are due to Moorish invasion, E-M81 has been found also in France.
How much is accurate?
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ESpraguer
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The data is largely consistent with my points. Although it's very, very limited & doesn't have a lot of eastern data, Lecce V-13 is almost double that of Sicily in the west (15% in Lecce). The average E-V13 in Sicily is roughly 8%, which was sort of my point (& interestingly, lower than what you find in the north of Italy. So if you're arguing the north of Italy reduced the percentage of E-V13, that doesn't really add up.). E on the whole does not go up from west to east, but E-V13 does. Same is true south to north. Western Italy is marked by a significantly larger proportion of other E types (probably indicating movement of peoples from North Africa & the Levant), a signature which is smaller in the east & the north.
Plus or minus 800 years. LOL. Also, I really don't buy it. If E-V13 has been in southern Europe 7-8000 years (It has. Spanish cave.), my guess is that it has been in Italy (particularly eastern Italy adjacent to Balkans) roughly the same amount of time. The TMRCA estimates are notoriously inaccurate. However, it is possible that the E-V13 in this study (from Sicily) is somewhat younger than that found in the east of Italy & is connected to Greek colonization in antiquity. But anyone who thinks all that V-13 in the east of Italy is from 2000 yrs ago or so, rather than from Cardium Pottery & other pre-historic migrations, I think is arguing from a pretty tenuous position. I think that is extremely unlikely. But as stated, some of the V13 settlement in the west of Italy could be more recent. However, I suspect much of the E-V13 in the east of Italy goes back 5000 yrs or more.
Plus or minus 800 years. LOL. Also, I really don't buy it. If E-V13 has been in southern Europe 7-8000 years (It has. Spanish cave.), my guess is that it has been in Italy (particularly eastern Italy adjacent to Balkans) roughly the same amount of time. The TMRCA estimates are notoriously inaccurate. However, it is possible that the E-V13 in this study (from Sicily) is somewhat younger than that found in the east of Italy & is connected to Greek colonization in antiquity. But anyone who thinks all that V-13 in the east of Italy is from 2000 yrs ago or so, rather than from Cardium Pottery & other pre-historic migrations, I think is arguing from a pretty tenuous position. I think that is extremely unlikely. But as stated, some of the V13 settlement in the west of Italy could be more recent. However, I suspect much of the E-V13 in the east of Italy goes back 5000 yrs or more.