Distribution of E1b1b subclades in Italy (Boattini et al.)

The data is largely consistent with my points. Although it's very, very limited & doesn't have a lot of eastern data, Lecce V-13 is almost double that of Sicily in the west (15% in Lecce). The average E-V13 in Sicily is roughly 8%, which was sort of my point (& interestingly, lower than what you find in the north of Italy. So if you're arguing the north of Italy reduced the percentage of E-V13, that doesn't really add up.). E on the whole does not go up from west to east, but E-V13 does. Same is true south to north. Western Italy is marked by a significantly larger proportion of other E types (probably indicating movement of peoples from North Africa & the Levant), a signature which is smaller in the east & the north.


Plus or minus 800 years. LOL. Also, I really don't buy it. If E-V13 has been in southern Europe 7-8000 years (It has. Spanish cave.), my guess is that it has been in Italy (particularly eastern Italy adjacent to Balkans) roughly the same amount of time. The TMRCA estimates are notoriously inaccurate. However, it is possible that the E-V13 in this study (from Sicily) is somewhat younger than that found in the east of Italy & is connected to Greek colonization in antiquity. But anyone who thinks all that V-13 in the east of Italy is from 2000 yrs ago or so, rather than from Cardium Pottery & other pre-historic migrations, I think is arguing from a pretty tenuous position. I think that is extremely unlikely. But as stated, some of the V13 settlement in the west of Italy could be more recent. However, I suspect much of the E-V13 in the east of Italy goes back 5000 yrs or more.

Did you even look at the Sarno et al tables? They're not at all consistent with your points. To save your argument you're now comparing one town in Puglia to all of western Sicily. That's not at all a fair comparison. If you actually look at the table, Lecce, one town in Puglia in mainland Italy, has 15% E-V13, but Trapani, one town in far northwest Sicily has 14.71% or approximately 15%.

Plus, as I said, we're talking about an average of 11% versus an average of 14%. I don't see the big deal here. Plus, as I said, that difference is easily explained by later demographic movements into both Sicily and southern Italy. I don't at all understand your statement that northern Italian migration into Sicily could not have diluted E-V13. First of all, you are not defining Northern Italy correctly. Second of all, the northern Italian migration into Sicily was primarily from Lombardia, hence why it's called the Lombard migration, and the dialects some of the towns founded by them still speak are called the Lombard Sicilian dialects. Where do you find more E-V13 in Lombardia or the Veneto than in southern Italy? I suggest you take a look at Table S2 in Boattini et al, and compute how much E-V13 they show in Lombardia.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0065441/#s6

Also, I don't know if you're aware of it, but there are documented movements of Greek speakers into southern Puglia in the Middle Ages. That's one of the reasons it's still the largest Griko speaking area in Italy. We're talking about further waves into that area, but it doesn't negate that there were first millennium BC movements into all of Magna Graecia. I also don't know where you find all these large percentages of "other" "E" in western Italy. Again, please check the data tables. The data doesn't show that at all.
View attachment 8180

Sarno at all concentrating on southern Italy and Sicily:
View attachment 8181

Not that the late first millennium BC movement of Greek speakers into Italy is the only such movement. I think we'll find that not only trade but people flowed into Italy, along the Adriatic coast, in particular, during the Mycenaean era.

Actually, I don't understand what larger point you're trying to make here. If it's about E-V13 in general, then there are other countries with much more of it that have to be understood. If it's about the issue of Greek migration into Italy, E-V13 is not the only lineage that has to be considered.

As for dating the E-V13 migrations to Europe, it's true that we've found the precursors in Neolithic samples. We also know, however, that the expansion is dated to the Bronze Age. I think a strong argument could be made that most E-V13 is going to descend from that period of expansion. The expansion is also centered in the Balkans, so any E-V13 in Italy is likely to have an ultimate Balkan origin. I'd also point out that +or- 800 years from 300 BC is not going to take you back to the Neolithic. However, until E-V13 gets the same kind of attention that some R1b clades received, a lot of this is just speculation.
 
1) The Sarno tables only have limited data from the east. Virtually all of the data analyzed in the study is from Sicily. That's part of what makes the study so suspect (especially given what you're trying to claim). E-V13 settlement in Sicily may have been from Greek era (I've already conceded this), although I certainly wouldn't conclude this based upon 1 study & 1 TMRCA estimate, given how notoriously unreliable they are. I also wouldn't take this limited data to be representative of all of Italy or all E-V13 on the peninsula. Settlement after all may have begun long before this in the east or in the north. Moreover, despite the limited data from Sarno regarding eastern Italy, we have other data from other studies regarding the east of Italy. 25% in Venice. 20% in Rimini, etc. Not only that, but the data we have from the east & from the north suggests E there is dominated by E-V13 in ways that the central-west & southwest are not. This is actually intuitive given the predominance of E-V13 in the Balkans & Greece. Breaking down the data from Boattini et al, 2013, you'll see my claims vindicated. I'm going beyond what Maciamo provided now:
E-V13 is 9-12% of all haplos in north. It is only 7% in Sicily. That is averaging the data, not just cherry picking particular cities (which I didn't do in the first place). It's true that I chose Lecce to make my point, but I could have chosen just about any eastern city. You couldn't have chosen any Sicilian city. Only a few areas of Sicily possess E-V13 at that level.
From the Boattini study I'll also go along the east of the peninsula, & just average a few of the cities for you. I'm going to be lazy & just pick randomly from the east & tally up the numbers.
Treviso: 10% E-V13, 2.5% E non-E-V13
Campobasso (somewhat inland) - 10%, 3.33% E non-E-V13
Vicenze- 14% E-V13 5.5% E non-E-V13
L'aquila (inland, but eastish) - 10%, all E-V13
Now Lecce: 15% E-V13, 2.5% E, non E-V13
Compare this to say Benevento where there is even more e1b1b (16-17%), but 60% of it is non-E-V13.
You'll notice that along the east E-V13 is basically 10% at minimum. Moreover, only Lecce is really on the coast. Vicenze is only close to the coast. Other studies have found e1b1b at 20% in Rimini (probably nearly all V13) & up to 25% in Venice (again presumably nearly all E-V13, since in the east & north almost all e1b1b is E-V13, which was to be demonstrated). These are actual coastal cities, like Lecce. As you head inland, E drops slightly & continues to drop as you head west.
*Also, you'll see the patterns I mentioned in the Boattini data. Sardinia, Sicily, Catanzaro all 50%+ non E-V13. In the North & East, e1b1b is heavily V13, indeed 75% plus, whereas in the southwest & west e1b1b becomes less & less dominated by V13 (50% and under).
2) Again, I'm going to reiterate that I don't believe for 1 second that E-V13 arrived in Italy roughly 2000 years ago. I believe E-V13 has been in Italy much, much longer than that. A few Sicilian samples are not going to change my mind on that. There is a good chance that some of the samples from Sicily are from the Greek era, skewing or worse, poisoning the estimate, but even if it's fairly accurate, I do not think the Sicilian data exhausts E-V13 or its settlement in the Italian peninsula. I suspect Cardium Pottery brought significant quantities of E-V13 to Italy 7000 yrs ago or prior. If one was really interested in dating E-V13 in Italy one would head to the east & the north, where the E-V13 is & where Greek settlements were more scarce. We have 7000 yr old E-V13 in southern Spain & 7000 yr old E-V13 from Hungary. E-V13 has lingered in southern & central Europe & along the coast of the Mediterranean for a long, long time. The notion that it is 10,000 yrs old or so in Greece, the Balkans & Bulgaria but only arrived in eastern Italy 2000 yrs ago I find to be a bit fantastical.
 
I'm not trying to claim anything. I don't care when E-V13 came to Italy. You're the one who for some unknown reason is rather heatedly insisting that most of it must have come other than with known settlement from Greek city states at approximately the TMRCA date for the various E-V13 clades in Italy.

What I'm doing is pointing out what I consider to be some logical fallacies in your argument, the lack of data to support key parts of your argument, and the mis-statements of fact about Italian history. What I realize but you apparently do not is that we're no longer in 2008. We've learned since then that modern distributions of yDna clades can be very misleading. We've also learned that you have to drill down further and further into subclades because they can be separated by a thousand years and very different migrations.

In terms of ancient dna we have a possible E-V13 in the epi-Cardial, and E-M78 in mid-to-late Sopot and Lengyel cultures. That's it. From that you choose to believe, apparently, that most of the actual, modern E-V13 in Italy must have come from the early Neolithic. In my opinion, that's an unwarranted conclusion.
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/europeanneolithicdna.shtml

Furthermore, whether you wish to believe it or not, one of the things we can indeed learn from modern yDna is when a certain lineage experienced its expansion. In the case of E-V13 that was the Bronze Age. I think that's a pretty good indication that whenever and with whomever E-V13 arrived in Italy, a good chunk of it, perhaps the majority, arrived during or after the Bronze Age.

Bicicleur thinks that E-V13 may have been picked up by the Indo-Europeans somewhere in central-eastern Europe, in which case it's conceivable some of it entered Italy from the north, over the Alps, or through the corridor in the east through which the Lombards later arrived. I think it's more likely, given the epicenter of E-V13 in the Balkans, that the flow was mainly from there. Only time will tell.

At any rate, given the known Greek settlements all over southern Italy but also in other areas of Italy and nearby in Provence during the first millennium BC, to take the position that this is somehow a minor to insignificant source of E-V13 in Italy is not only counter-intuitive but rather contrary to logic.

In the following map the smaller Adriatic trading centers are not shown, or the small settlement at Genova, but still you get an idea of how much settlement actually took place.

Griechischen_und_ph%C3%B6nizischen_Kolonien.jpg


This is another good graphic:
display-68.jpg


Even the grape varieties show the same thing:
Migration_of_Greek_grape_varieties_to_Italy.jpg


Autosomal analysis is also pretty informative. I'm still impressed by how much Cavalli-Sforza got right. This is PC4 of his autosomal map of Europe.
pc4.jpg


I think the distribution in Italy might also owe something to the colonization program of the Romans. Neapolis was a large Greek area, and incorporated by Rome relatively early, so its men went into the legions. As time passed, Rome settled veterans all over Italy, scrambling the yDna distribution to some extent, although not, in my opinion, enough to very much affect the very old substructure. The separation of southern Italy from central, and even more from northern Italy took place after the Roman era.

500px-Romancoloniae.jpg


As to the jumble of statistics in your post, I'm sorry, but I don't pay attention to stats that don't contain a link to the appropriate paper. Without that information, which would tell me if its actually E-V13, the number of samples, the methodology etc. I can't evaluate the data. One of the reasons why I do pay attention to the Boattini and Sarno papers, for example, is that they are a random sample drawn only from known regional surnames. In a country like Italy where there has been a very large migration from south to north starting really at the end of the 19th century, four grandparents born in the area is not enough to guarantee these are really "native" samples.

I think it is pretty clear that some, perhaps a large chunk of the E-V13 in Italy is indeed part of the Greek expansion of the first millennium BC, but I think it was supplemented in the southeastern portions of the mainland and perhaps in central Italy during the Middle Ages given known migrations, and a portion may stretch back to the Mycenaean Era given known trade and cultural exchange patterns. Some of it may indeed even go back to the Neolithic, but given the expansion dates I don't think that's the case for most of it.

At any rate, I'm not at all married to these speculations. It's just what it looks like to me now given what I know of the sub-clade and the history. When we have more ancient dna and more subclade resolution this may all change. I have no stake in any one outcome so whatever the data shows, it shows. What I'm not interested in is unfounded speculation, bereft of data, because of what is increasingly looking like some sort of agenda.
 
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1) The Sarno tables only have limited data from the east. Virtually all of the data analyzed in the study is from Sicily. That's part of what makes the study so suspect (especially given what you're trying to claim). E-V13 settlement in Sicily may have been from Greek era (I've already conceded this), although I certainly wouldn't conclude this based upon 1 study & 1 TMRCA estimate, given how notoriously unreliable they are. I also wouldn't take this limited data to be representative of all of Italy or all E-V13 on the peninsula. Settlement after all may have begun long before this in the east or in the north. Moreover, despite the limited data from Sarno regarding eastern Italy, we have other data from other studies regarding the east of Italy. 25% in Venice. 20% in Rimini, etc. Not only that, but the data we have from the east & from the north suggests E there is dominated by E-V13 in ways that the central-west & southwest are not. This is actually intuitive given the predominance of E-V13 in the Balkans & Greece. Breaking down the data from Boattini et al, 2013, you'll see my claims vindicated. I'm going beyond what Maciamo provided now:
E-V13 is 9-12% of all haplos in north. It is only 7% in Sicily. That is averaging the data, not just cherry picking particular cities (which I didn't do in the first place). It's true that I chose Lecce to make my point, but I could have chosen just about any eastern city. You couldn't have chosen any Sicilian city. Only a few areas of Sicily possess E-V13 at that level.
From the Boattini study I'll also go along the east of the peninsula, & just average a few of the cities for you. I'm going to be lazy & just pick randomly from the east & tally up the numbers.
Treviso: 10% E-V13, 2.5% E non-E-V13
Campobasso (somewhat inland) - 10%, 3.33% E non-E-V13
Vicenze- 14% E-V13 5.5% E non-E-V13
L'aquila (inland, but eastish) - 10%, all E-V13
Now Lecce: 15% E-V13, 2.5% E, non E-V13
Compare this to say Benevento where there is even more e1b1b (16-17%), but 60% of it is non-E-V13.
You'll notice that along the east E-V13 is basically 10% at minimum. Moreover, only Lecce is really on the coast. Vicenze is only close to the coast. Other studies have found e1b1b at 20% in Rimini (probably nearly all V13) & up to 25% in Venice (again presumably nearly all E-V13, since in the east & north almost all e1b1b is E-V13, which was to be demonstrated). These are actual coastal cities, like Lecce. As you head inland, E drops slightly & continues to drop as you head west.
*Also, you'll see the patterns I mentioned in the Boattini data. Sardinia, Sicily, Catanzaro all 50%+ non E-V13. In the North & East, e1b1b is heavily V13, indeed 75% plus, whereas in the southwest & west e1b1b becomes less & less dominated by V13 (50% and under).
2) Again, I'm going to reiterate that I don't believe for 1 second that E-V13 arrived in Italy roughly 2000 years ago. I believe E-V13 has been in Italy much, much longer than that. A few Sicilian samples are not going to change my mind on that. There is a good chance that some of the samples from Sicily are from the Greek era, skewing or worse, poisoning the estimate, but even if it's fairly accurate, I do not think the Sicilian data exhausts E-V13 or its settlement in the Italian peninsula. I suspect Cardium Pottery brought significant quantities of E-V13 to Italy 7000 yrs ago or prior. If one was really interested in dating E-V13 in Italy one would head to the east & the north, where the E-V13 is & where Greek settlements were more scarce. We have 7000 yr old E-V13 in southern Spain & 7000 yr old E-V13 from Hungary. E-V13 has lingered in southern & central Europe & along the coast of the Mediterranean for a long, long time. The notion that it is 10,000 yrs old or so in Greece, the Balkans & Bulgaria but only arrived in eastern Italy 2000 yrs ago I find to be a bit fantastical.

In Ftdna North-Italy project , 18 of 23 E people are ....E-M35/L117

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/northitaly?iframe=yresults

Other papers have roughly the same percentage for north-italy
 
Yeah, exactly. That L117 is all V-13. Those numbers comport perfectly with the other data. 75%+ of N Italian E is E-V13.
 
1) Don't be an unethical debater. There's no "jumble of statistics" anywhere. The statistics I've provided are very clear. I've also broken them down so they're easy to grasp. They're also right there in the Boattini study, which is publicly available. So they're very easy to find & analyze if you're at all interested in the truth. Because I'm a newb to Eupedia, it won't let me post links, but if you simply google "Boattini et al in Italy" the very first result will take you there.
2) Greek settlements do not track V13 in Italy. At all. Where Greek settlements were, V13 numbers are substantially lower. There are few Greek settlements in the east & the north, according to your own map, but E-V13 is higher there than in the south & southwest.
3) I did not say Greek genetic contributions to Italy were small. What I said was that it was almost certainly smaller than other V13 contributions from other migrations, which likely predate Greek settlement (perhaps Illyrian, an Alpine entry or Cardium Pottery era). I also said that analyzing Sicilian V-13 might not be the best way to get a grip on V13 in Italy, its origin & the timeframe of that origin. It is 1 region, & it is not where E-V13 reaches its height. If anything, all that Greek settlement makes the Sicilian data all the more unrepresentative of V13 in Italy. V13 may very well have arrived in the west of the peninsula in large numbers substantially later than it arrived elsewhere. This is especially true for an extreme western island like Sicily. Notice how insubstantial V13 is in Sardinia.
4) Yes, that's what those estimates indicate, that E-V13 arrived in the late, late Bronze Age or after the Bronze Age. I've already stated that I don't believe that. I suspect E-V13 arrived in Italy (North & East especially) in the early Bronze Age or prior. A Greek origin for E-V13 in Italy generally is simply not at all supported by the evidence.
 
1) Don't be an unethical debater. There's no "jumble of statistics" anywhere. The statistics I've provided are very clear. I've also broken them down so they're easy to grasp. They're also right there in the Boattini study, which is publicly available. So they're very easy to find & analyze if you're at all interested in the truth. Because I'm a newb to Eupedia, it won't let me post links, but if you simply google "Boattini et al in Italy" the very first result will take you there.
2) Greek settlements do not track V13 in Italy. At all. Where Greek settlements were, V13 numbers are substantially lower. There are few Greek settlements in the east & the north, according to your own map, but E-V13 is higher there than in the south & southwest.
3) I did not say Greek genetic contributions to Italy were small. What I said was that it was almost certainly smaller than other V13 contributions from other migrations, which likely predate Greek settlement (perhaps Illyrian, an Alpine entry or Cardium Pottery era). I also said that analyzing Sicilian V-13 might not be the best way to get a grip on V13 in Italy, its origin & the timeframe of that origin. It is 1 region, & it is not where E-V13 reaches its height. If anything, all that Greek settlement makes the Sicilian data all the more unrepresentative of V13 in Italy. V13 may very well have arrived in the west of the peninsula in large numbers substantially later than it arrived elsewhere. This is especially true for an extreme western island like Sicily. Notice how insubstantial V13 is in Sardinia.
4) Yes, that's what those estimates indicate, that E-V13 arrived in the late, late Bronze Age or after the Bronze Age. I've already stated that I don't believe that. I suspect E-V13 arrived in Italy (North & East especially) in the early Bronze Age or prior. A Greek origin for E-V13 in Italy generally is simply not at all supported by the evidence.


Greek DNA contribution to Italian gene pool is significant in Rome. Romans imported all Greek craftsman and settled them in Italy to build Rome. They also imported all they could find, craftsman from Levant and Egypt. The imports were the gifted individuals and all their immediate families. The names of famous architects who build some Roman marvels were either Greeks or Middle eastern people. Also artists of all kinds were imported, shipbuilders etc.. Over so many years their numbers have swelled to significant numbers
 
Greek DNA contribution to Italian gene pool is significant in Rome. Romans imported all Greek craftsman and settled them in Italy to build Rome. They also imported all they could find, craftsman from Levant and Egypt. The imports were the gifted individuals and all their immediate families. The names of famous architects who build some Roman marvels were either Greeks or Middle eastern people. Also artists of all kinds were imported, shipbuilders etc.. Over so many years their numbers have swelled to significant numbers

Please provide the studies which prove that all the craftsmen and architects who built Rome were "native" Greeks, and furthermore, the analysts who have computed the numbers of their descendants.

I'm not disputing, by the way, that the Romans greatly valued educated Greek slaves. However, on this site we don't post statements without providing proof for them.

@ESprague,
You insult moderators here and there are consequences. I guess you didn't know that.

It is highly improbable, and something I haven't seen proposed by any serious analyst that Magna Graecia, the site of so much Greek settlement in the first millennium BC, and part of a genetic cluster with Greece recognized as long ago as in Cavalli-Sforza's seminal work but also by some modern genetic testing companies would have no or minimal E-V13 from those migrations. The only data you present for your proposition is sentence after sentence of stats for E-V13 in the rest of Italy, especially central Italy. Who has denied that there is E-V13 in other parts of Italy? Also, I already posted the actual data tables, so it was totally unnecessary.

The point is that Boattini et al found five separate clusters of E-V13 in Italy. Before we can come to any hard and fast conclusions about the source and timing of E-V13 in Italy, those clusters have to be further studied and snp tests provided for them. Then the samples that are banked have to be re-tested for those subclades and the precise TMRCA for each cluster has to be computed as closely as possible. Comparisons could then be made with samples from Greece, Albania, etc., but even then great care would have to be exercised. Any attempt to come to some scientific conclusions would, in my opinion, also have to include ancient dna. That would help with dating and give us the precise subclades involved with each migration.

Absent this kind of rigorous data collection and analysis it's impossible to safely draw the kinds of conclusions you are drawing as to the precise timing and direction of all the E-V13 in Italy.

You're free to believe whatever you wish, of course, but you have presented no evidence, in my opinion, to support your speculation that virtually all the E-V13 in southern Italy/Sicily, and the rest of Italy for that matter has been there since the Neolithic. The very fact that there are five clusters, not one, is against that proposition.

So, unless you have something new to add to the discussion, I don't see much point in continuing.
 
1) Again, you're failing to do even the most rudimentary analysis of the stats. E-V13 does not appear to be correlated at all with Greek settlement. E-V13 is lower in Sicily than it is in the east & north of Italy. That you deny this is just bizarre. The stats are right there for you to see. They're crystal clear.
2) Again, you keep repeating arguments I'm not making. I've stated like 6 times that much of the E-V13 in Sicily may be from the Greek period. I doubt that all of it is but much of it may be. This doesn't mean that the E-V13 elsewhere in Italy is from this period. It is after all quite strange that E-V13 is at its highest in Italian regions where Greek settlements were few or non-existent. I'd say that suggests pretty strongly much of E-V13 on the peninsula is not from the Greek period.
3) There has already been pretty rigorous data collection. I'm just breaking the data down in a very straight-forward way. You just don't like what the data says, because it contradicts your feelings & preconceived notions.
4) I did not insult you. All I did was urge you not to debate unethically. Your claim that what I wrote constituted a "jumble of statistics" is not a good faith argument. It is a condescending, intellectually lazy, pejorative argument directed at my collection of data & arguably at me & my intellect as well. Calling a short mathematical analysis a "jumble of statistics" is hardly arguing in good faith. All I did was urge you against unethical debate, & I believe the "jumble of statistics" argument was precisely that. That is not an insult, unless you think there was something in my exhortation. So you decided to penalize me as a bully would, because you like to throw your weight around by talking down to people when you're losing a debate, & when someone calls you out on it & stands up to you, instead of owning up, you throw your weight around further by slapping them with an infraction. You'd make a good tyrant.
5) I have provided strong evidence of my claims. You just don't like the claims, because the data conflicts with what you want to believe.
6) No, you should retire, you're losing. Cheers.
 
You're now up to 8 infraction points. Cheers.
 
Now, if anyone would like to discuss the issue in a sane and rational and objective manner I'd be happy to do so.

Absent ancient ydna from the areas in Italy under discussion for the Neolithic, Bronze and Iron Age, and from Greece and the Balkans for the same periods, and also absent much information about the five clusters of E-V13 in Italy, I have no idea what percentage of E-V13 is attributable to the Neolithic versus the Bronze and Iron Ages in different areas in Italy, although as I said I find it improbable, given that the expansion of E-V13 was in the Bronze Age and that Boattini et al give the main E-V13 cluster in SEI a very young TMRCA, and that we have well known migrations from Greece to Italy in the first millennium that most of it is Neolithic in origin. Anything is possible, of course, as ancient dna has a history of surprising.

This is the graphic of the clusters of E-V13 in Italy. Anyone have any insights? Oh, it's important to note that in the Boattini analysis, SEI for y DNA stands for southern and eastern Italy, and goes all the way up to the northeast.

Boattini et al E-V13 Italy.PNG

It's Cluster 3 of E-V13, the vast majority of which is located in SEI, which is dated to about 400 BC. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any dating for the other clusters.
http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/jeanlohizun/media/Boattinietal2013-Table2_zpsd332fb44.jpg.html

Oh, as to the deluge of percentages about E-V13 in different areas in Italy, this is the table from Boattini et al, which I already posted. The big furor was because area II, north east Italy, comes in at 11%. Southern Italy, including Campania, Puglia, Calabria etc. comes in at 10.6, obviously a huge difference, and Sicily, area 7 at 7.1, although there are hotspots as in Trapani which are close to 15%. That should make things a little clearer.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MWmAskEgse0/Uai37lE3ohI/AAAAAAAAI2I/JlgvVTbQcwE/s640/haplogroups_italy.png

This is the table from Sarno et al (same group). The percentages are a little higher. You can see the wild swings in percentages.
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bYlCUJZuWYg/Vl0fUOV2XlI/AAAAAAAADW4/nddZwg50GCU/s1600/Sarno2014tab1.JPG
 
Yeah, exactly. That L117 is all V-13. Those numbers comport perfectly with the other data. 75%+ of N Italian E is E-V13.

L117 = M35 is a main branch and V13 is a subbranch way way down the tree.
L117 equivalent to M35, at the level just above M78, so V32 is downstream of L117.
 
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By the way, if anyone has a clue as to why the possibility that a lot of E-V13 came to southern Italy with the Greeks was such an emotional topic, so vehemently to be denied, and even more bizarrely why I would have been presumed to care one way or the other, could you enlighten me either here or by PM? Thanks.

I'm used to some strange events, but I found this really incomprehensible.
 
I wasn't ever emotional. You were emotional. Did I sanction you? Did I banish you from the site for 2 weeks? Who was emotional? LOL. I never even said much of the E-V13 in Sicily wasn't Greek. I simply said I doubted the data & estimates almost strictly limited to Sicily were generalizable or relevant to the E-V13 elsewhere in Italy. Until analyses are done on these other clusters & on E-V13 from elsewhere in Italy, it will be essentially speculative. However, given that we have what is likely E-V13 (E-M78) in Sopot & Lengyel & E-V13 in Spain from 7000 years ago, it just seems unlikely that Italy (a location between these two locations) didn't have significant quantities of E-V13 as well in the neolithic, given that Cardium Pottery Culture itself included much of Italy, especially eastern Italy, Liguria, etc. I simply meant to convey a deep skepticism that E-V13 in Italy has its origins in the middle or late Bronze Age. I think this extremely unlikely. But I have no doubt whatsoever that some of it arrived with Greek settlement. I know I can be aggressive, but I never meant to be rude.
 
here is the graph did a quick bit of distribution of E-V13 in Italy.
Makes it a little justice in regions with a strong colonization greca.Prima Sicily, then Lazio, Campania, Puglia etc ... Lombardy has recently suffered a strong migration from southern Italy and therefore has a given falsato.Bisogna add it to sud-Italia.Se consider themselves Italians in the world (Argentina, Brazil, etc.) this data would be more 'raddoppiati.L'Italia represents the nation with more' E-V13 mondo.Bisogna to better study all its subaplogruppi for understand the history and the immigration places.



italia v13.jpg

 
here is the graph did a quick bit of distribution of E-V13 in Italy.
Makes it a little justice in regions with a strong colonization greca.Prima Sicily, then Lazio, Campania, Puglia etc ... Lombardy has recently suffered a strong migration from southern Italy and therefore has a given falsato.Bisogna add it to sud-Italia.Se consider themselves Italians in the world (Argentina, Brazil, etc.) this data would be more 'raddoppiati.L'Italia represents the nation with more' E-V13 mondo.Bisogna to better study all its subaplogruppi for understand the history and the immigration places.






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No idea where this data is from. Sicily does not have a high % of E-V13. It has a high percentage of E1b1b, but only about 30-40% of it is E-V13. Thus the rub with your argument. This is a thread about the Boattini data. The graphs you've given are not based upon that data or they're the result of a total misunderstanding regarding it. This study has just under 150 samples in Sicily, all from different parts of the island. 10 of those 150 samples are E-V13. 10. That means a mere 6.7% of Sicilians are E-V13. That's about as low as any part of Italy. There is twice as much E-V13 as that in Venice & Liguria, close to 3x as much in Apulia. Campania? 8.5% E-V13. You're conflating E1b1b with E-V13. In the west of Italy a lot of the E1b1b is non-E-V13. Thus the confusion. Again, there is more E-V13 in the east & the north of the Italian peninsula. E1b1b in the aggregate is not equivalent to nor even correlated with E-V13, a particular subclade of E1b1b. And again, there is essentially no apparent correlation between Greek settlement and the concentration of E-V13 in Italy. There does appear to have been significant gene flow from the Balkans & Greece to eastern Italy, but I'm not at all convinced this is largely the result of any particular historic migrations. Moreover, Greek colonization or gradual Balkan/Greek migration to the east of the peninsula does not explain very well the hotspot in Liguria. This may be a vestige of the Cardium Pottery era.
 

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