Distribution of haplogroup J1 in Italy (Boattini et al.)

J1 in Italy is generally evenly distributed and found in areas that were never conquered by moors. There is no big differences between the areas that was under fatmid and aglabide rule to regions that were not.

Spain has been conquered by moors for double the time and the J1 percentages are not any higher then those of Italy, so I doubt that there has been any significant J1's admixture from during this period. I believe that J1 had a better chance on entering during the neolithic (as Lebrok mentioned), some through the Greek immigration (as Hautville mentioned and well documented settlements) also through Phoenician and maybe some more during the Roman period through slavery. (again, I am not familiar from which part of the empire the Roman slaves were and how they were absorbed into the general population)

:innocent:

Italy was never conquered by Moors, unlike Iberia who was under Moorish rule for many centuries. Granada was occupied for more than 800 years for example.

That plus mixing with Phoenicians, Sephardi Jews, African slaves, Guance Berbers...

J1 in Italy is highest on the Appennines, just like G2a. On the coastal areas it's usually 2-3% of the total lineages.
 
It's because most of the medieval muslims were not original arabs but more berbers. But also the berber marker E-m81 distributions has really very small in Sicily. Regarding Crete i don't know if their J1 is ancient neolithic or by the muslims (also Crete was ruled by the medieval muslims) but i think is more neolithic.

If not mistaken Muslims (Moors) took Crete in short periods before the conquest of the Andalusians exiles which lasted approximately some 140 years. As you mentioned those would be more E-M81 then J1, so I presume the J1 in Crete is also an ancient input. Malta like Sicily has only 2% of North African Input but like some parts of Italy 8% of J1 compared to 21% J2
 
:innocent:

Italy was never conquered by Moors, unlike Iberia who was under Moorish rule for many centuries. Granada was occupied for more than 800 years for example.

That plus mixing with Phoenicians, Sephardi Jews, African slaves, Guance Berbers...

J1 in Italy is highest on the Appennines, just like G2a. On the coastal areas it's usually 2-3% of the total lineages.
Indeed. Continental Italy excluding very few parts like Bari, Taranto, Reggio Calabria and Amantea were never conquered by the medieval muslims. However Melith muslims remained in Sicily more or less two centuries like Crete (excluding Catania and some towns in Messina province were never conquered by them according to some historians). Andalusia was ruled 781 years. It's a bit different.
 
Yes but Sicily (i am sicilian eh) do not represent all Italy like Andalusia or Algarve don't represent all Spain or Portugal or Crete all Greece. However Iberia was conquered almost all by the muslims Italy only Sicily and some coastal cities in continental south for very small time. The muslims left very few genetic traces in Sicily because they were expelled and you can read that in the "genetic history of Italy" in this website.
 
Hauteville said:
Yes but Sicily (i am sicilian eh) do not represent all Italy like Andalusia or Algarve don't represent all Spain or Portugal or Crete all Greece. However Iberia was conquered almost all by the muslims Italy only Sicily and some coastal cities in continental south for very small time. The muslims left very few genetic traces in Sicily because they were expelled and you can read that in the "genetic history of Italy" in this website.

Indeed, I think we are saying the same thing

J1 in Italy is generally evenly distributed and found in areas that were never conquered by moors. There is no big differences between the areas that was under fatmid and aglabide rule to regions that were not.

Spain has been conquered by moors for double the time and the J1 percentages are not any higher then those of Italy, so I doubt that there has been any significant J1's admixture from during this period. I believe that J1 had a better chance on entering during the neolithic (as Lebrok mentioned), some through the Greek immigration (as Hautville mentioned and well documented settlements) also through Phoenician and maybe some more during the Roman period through slavery. (again, I am not familiar from which part of the empire the Roman slaves were and how they were absorbed into the general population)
 
It's difficult to tie J1 to any specific migration because most studies which have been done do not divide it into subclades. This study attempted to provide some better resolution for J1 in Italy, but the total number of samples for each area is very small. Plus, they only broadly divided it into M267 and the "Arabic" J1e.

These are the different areas sampled in the study:
http://r1b.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/U152_Only_Map.png

For what it's worth, these are the results, with M267 percentages first and then those for J1e, now known as J1c3.

I Piemonte/E.Lombardia/W.Liguria: 1.2/.6

II N.E.Italy: 1.4/0

III Bologna: 0/6.9

IV E.Liguria/Toscana: 1.6/1.6

V C.Italy: 2.6/1.3

VI Mainland S.Italy: 2.5/1.5

VII Sicily: 2.1/4.3

VIII Sardinia: 0/2.4

Now the M267 could definitely be better refined into subclades, but I don't think I'd be too out of line to say that perhaps this group reflects the older, more "Neolithic" like lineages, or at least the northern Near East lineages. (I wish that Boattini had dated the two clusters the way that they did the other y lineages, but there was probably too little J1 to do a decent job.)

In looking for a pattern in those results, all I can see is that northern Italy runs from 0 to a range from 1.2 to 1.6%. Once you get to Central Italy you go up about 1% to 2.1 to 2.6%.

In terms of "J1e" I don't see much of a pattern at all to be honest. Most of Italy is in a range from 0 to .6, 1.3, 1.5, 1.6, which are really distinctions without a difference. The exceptions are a slightly higher 2.4 in Sardinia, 4.3 in Sicily, and then a bizarre 6.9 in Bologna.

I don't know whether J1e was in a geographical position at the right time to have participated in the Neolithic migrations, because my understanding is that their major expansion took place during the Bronze Age, but I'm not an expert on J1e so someone correct me if I'm wrong. (There is also the conclusion in the 2009 Chiaroni et al paper that "J1c3 spread with pastoral nomads who would migrate based on rainfall patterns from the Zagros and Taurus mountains to the Levant, with the first such migrations occurring during the neolithic period." I'm not quite sure if that means they might have formed part of the Neolithic migrations to Europe or not. )

Turning to the Muslim invasions in 900 AD, they never got anywhere near Bologna so I think this is some sort of founder effect that arrived under who knows what circumstances, or it's just a function of the small sample. (As Maciamo points out in the general Haplogroup J1 section, the distribution of J1 is indeed spotty in Europe, so it's difficult to draw conclusions) The Sicilian numbers may not be representative either, but even if they are, the absolute level is much smaller than many people might have predicted. Even if we combine these figures with the similarly low E-M81 "Berber" clade numbers, and given that this was a male mediated elite invasion, the total North African/Middle Eastern footprint from this particular event is smaller than I had thought, and so those reports of Frederick II engaging in rather brutal ethnic cleansing seem to be borne out.
 
The Sicilian numbers may not be representative either, but even if they are, the absolute level is much smaller than many people might have predicted. Even if we combine these figures with the similarly low E-M81 "Berber" clade numbers, and given that this was a male mediated elite invasion, the total North African/Middle Eastern footprint from this particular event is smaller than I had thought, and so those reports of Frederick II engaging in rather brutal ethnic cleansing seem to be borne out.

This study here is the best guess we have as to J1 in Sicily. It's highly sporadically distributed, and the average figure of 4% is likely due to the fact that J1 is fairly high in some parts of the island (10% in Ragusa), around average frequency in most regions from 3-6%, but virtually absent in others (Sciacca, Piazza Armerina, and Mazara del Vallo). It probably exists in concentrated pockets, for whatever reason.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/
 
It's difficult to tie J1 to any specific migration because most studies which have been done do not divide it into subclades. This study attempted to provide some better resolution for J1 in Italy, but the total number of samples for each area is very small. Plus, they only broadly divided it into M267 and the "Arabic" J1e.

These are the different areas sampled in the study:
http://r1b.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/U152_Only_Map.png

For what it's worth, these are the results, with M267 percentages first and then those for J1e, now known as J1c3.

I Piemonte/E.Lombardia/W.Liguria: 1.2/.6

II N.E.Italy: 1.4/0

III Bologna: 0/6.9

IV E.Liguria/Toscana: 1.6/1.6

V C.Italy: 2.6/1.3

VI Mainland S.Italy: 2.5/1.5

VII Sicily: 2.1/4.3

VIII Sardinia: 0/2.4

Now the M267 could definitely be better refined into subclades, but I don't think I'd be too out of line to say that perhaps this group reflects the older, more "Neolithic" like lineages, or at least the northern Near East lineages. (I wish that Boattini had dated the two clusters the way that they did the other y lineages, but there was probably too little J1 to do a decent job.)

In looking for a pattern in those results, all I can see is that northern Italy runs from 0 to a range from 1.2 to 1.6%. Once you get to Central Italy you go up about 1% to 2.1 to 2.6%.

In terms of "J1e" I don't see much of a pattern at all to be honest. Most of Italy is in a range from 0 to .6, 1.3, 1.5, 1.6, which are really distinctions without a difference. The exceptions are a slightly higher 2.4 in Sardinia, 4.3 in Sicily, and then a bizarre 6.9 in Bologna.

I don't know whether J1e was in a geographical position at the right time to have participated in the Neolithic migrations, because my understanding is that their major expansion took place during the Bronze Age, but I'm not an expert on J1e so someone correct me if I'm wrong. (There is also the conclusion in the 2009 Chiaroni et al paper that "J1c3 spread with pastoral nomads who would migrate based on rainfall patterns from the Zagros and Taurus mountains to the Levant, with the first such migrations occurring during the neolithic period." I'm not quite sure if that means they might have formed part of the Neolithic migrations to Europe or not. )

Turning to the Muslim invasions in 900 AD, they never got anywhere near Bologna so I think this is some sort of founder effect that arrived under who knows what circumstances, or it's just a function of the small sample. (As Maciamo points out in the general Haplogroup J1 section, the distribution of J1 is indeed spotty in Europe, so it's difficult to draw conclusions) The Sicilian numbers may not be representative either, but even if they are, the absolute level is much smaller than many people might have predicted. Even if we combine these figures with the similarly low E-M81 "Berber" clade numbers, and given that this was a male mediated elite invasion, the total North African/Middle Eastern footprint from this particular event is smaller than I had thought, and so those reports of Frederick II engaging in rather brutal ethnic cleansing seem to be borne out.

Thank you for explaining in more detail Angela. Also every time that a 'foreign' power takes over a region most people seem to assume that suddenly there is some kind of mass exodus from the conquerors land of origins to the conquered countries! Yes it does happen in some instances but only backed by war, over population or extreme climatic conditions that bring about famine. This was not the case during the Aghlabid and Fatmid periods in Southern Europe. The Maghrebese were very happy to stay in their homeland and often they have prospered into a Golden age of learning and good economy, so mass migrations were not necessary. It was the 'aboriginal' inhabitants that have converted to Islam during this period as the Caliphates imposed taxes and set unfavorable conditions to the Christians who for economic reasons would have converted in masses. This was reversed at around 1240 when the same was imposed on the Muslims and once again the masses converted to Christianity (again for economic and security reasons)

You always find a stubborn (minority I would say) hard core groups in both ways that do not convert for some reason or another, and these are the ones we know that would have been expelled or preferred to pay high taxes and so on, the mass population is driven and flow according to the more favorable economic situations when the inevitable happens.

At any rate DNA now is more or less proving the point.
 
In Ragusa the percentage lowered in both Boattini et al. and Sarno et al.
 
It's difficult to tie J1 to any specific migration because most studies which have been done do not divide it into subclades. This study attempted to provide some better resolution for J1 in Italy, but the total number of samples for each area is very small. Plus, they only broadly divided it into M267 and the "Arabic" J1e.

These are the different areas sampled in the study:
http://r1b.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/U152_Only_Map.png

For what it's worth, these are the results, with M267 percentages first and then those for J1e, now known as J1c3.

I Piemonte/E.Lombardia/W.Liguria: 1.2/.6

II N.E.Italy: 1.4/0

III Bologna: 0/6.9

IV E.Liguria/Toscana: 1.6/1.6

V C.Italy: 2.6/1.3

VI Mainland S.Italy: 2.5/1.5

VII Sicily: 2.1/4.3

VIII Sardinia: 0/2.4

Now the M267 could definitely be better refined into subclades, but I don't think I'd be too out of line to say that perhaps this group reflects the older, more "Neolithic" like lineages, or at least the northern Near East lineages. (I wish that Boattini had dated the two clusters the way that they did the other y lineages, but there was probably too little J1 to do a decent job.)

In looking for a pattern in those results, all I can see is that northern Italy runs from 0 to a range from 1.2 to 1.6%. Once you get to Central Italy you go up about 1% to 2.1 to 2.6%.

In terms of "J1e" I don't see much of a pattern at all to be honest. Most of Italy is in a range from 0 to .6, 1.3, 1.5, 1.6, which are really distinctions without a difference. The exceptions are a slightly higher 2.4 in Sardinia, 4.3 in Sicily, and then a bizarre 6.9 in Bologna.

I don't know whether J1e was in a geographical position at the right time to have participated in the Neolithic migrations, because my understanding is that their major expansion took place during the Bronze Age, but I'm not an expert on J1e so someone correct me if I'm wrong. (There is also the conclusion in the 2009 Chiaroni et al paper that "J1c3 spread with pastoral nomads who would migrate based on rainfall patterns from the Zagros and Taurus mountains to the Levant, with the first such migrations occurring during the neolithic period." I'm not quite sure if that means they might have formed part of the Neolithic migrations to Europe or not. )

Turning to the Muslim invasions in 900 AD, they never got anywhere near Bologna so I think this is some sort of founder effect that arrived under who knows what circumstances, or it's just a function of the small sample. (As Maciamo points out in the general Haplogroup J1 section, the distribution of J1 is indeed spotty in Europe, so it's difficult to draw conclusions) The Sicilian numbers may not be representative either, but even if they are, the absolute level is much smaller than many people might have predicted. Even if we combine these figures with the similarly low E-M81 "Berber" clade numbers, and given that this was a male mediated elite invasion, the total North African/Middle Eastern footprint from this particular event is smaller than I had thought, and so those reports of Frederick II engaging in rather brutal ethnic cleansing seem to be borne out.
Thanks for sharing, i have seen that in Spain and Portugal is higher E-M81 than J1 so i think that medieval muslims were probably more berbers than arabs.
 
Bologna was an Etruscan city and Etruscans were pre-IndoEuropean neolitich farmers rich in J1, J2, G2a, etc....

J1 is also very scarse in North West Africa, apart for some hot spots. Italy never had large numbers of Jews and Crypto-Jews like Iberia had. In fact Jews never numbered few thousands of people out of milions, because Italy is the center of Catholic Church, which was extremely anti semitic.
 
Thanks for sharing, i have seen that in Spain and Portugal is higher E-M81 than J1 so i think that medieval muslims were probably more berbers than arabs.

Spain and Portugal have the highest instances of E-M81 in Europe, however like J1 its very much debatable wether this is due to medieval muslims (or moorish occupation). E-M81 has also been found in areas that were never conqured by the moors in North Spain, so its entry could be very much possible to be much prior to the Medieval period with a natural flow from North Africa due to the close proximity from the straights of Gibraltar which at some time during the Last glaciation period could have been much closer or even connected.
 
Spain and Portugal have the highest instances of E-M81 in Europe, however like J1 its very much debatable wether this is due to medieval muslims (or moorish occupation). E-M81 has also been found in areas that were never conqured by the moors in North Spain, so its entry could be very much possible to be much prior to the Medieval period with a natural flow from North Africa due to the close proximity from the straights of Gibraltar which at some time during the Last glaciation period could have been much closer or even connected.
Or deportation of andalusian moors in the north of the country also. However only the deep north like north Asturias, north Cantabria and north Basque Country were never conquered by the muslims. And another interesting thing is that E-M81 seems much more common in west Andalusia than in the east part of the region. The hotspot of E-M81 is in the Pasiegos.
 
If not mistaken Muslims (Moors) took Crete in short periods before the conquest of the Andalusians exiles which lasted approximately some 140 years. As you mentioned those would be more E-M81 then J1, so I presume the J1 in Crete is also an ancient input. Malta like Sicily has only 2% of North African Input but like some parts of Italy 8% of J1 compared to 21% J2

Only scarsely populated areas on the Appennines and a couple of Etruscan cities have more than 5% of J1. Only a tiny percentage of that is the famous J1e which peaks in the Arabian peninsula, but originated in Anatolia. In most of Italy there is no J1e at all.

We don't know much about J2, but according to this recent paper there is enough J2 diversity in Italy to say that it's extremely ancient, probably even pre-neolitich.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30667-armenian-paper-on-R1-J2-and-G2

BTW the map needs some updates. Sarno et al. with a much greater number of samples found 0% of J1 in Lecce for example.
 
Lecce is 5%, 0% is in Matera in Sarno et al.
 
If not mistaken Muslims (Moors) took Crete in short periods before the conquest of the Andalusians exiles which lasted approximately some 140 years.
The sources said 150 years but not much less time compared to Sicily and Malta. Some cities of north eastern Sicily and Catania was never conquered by the muslims and excluding Palermo and Mazara del Vallo the rest of the island was conquered from 850 to 965-980 and eastern Sicily (specially Messina, Siracusa and Etna and Iblei cities) was reconquered by Giorgio Maniace in 1038, the last muslims remained in Noto in 1091 but the rest of the island were totally freed in 1063-1072. Today Scicli (Ragusa province) celebrates hunting of the saracens. So the medieval muslims ruled Sicily for two centuries circa. It was no a long rule as many people think.
 
The sources said 150 years but not much less time compared to Sicily and Malta. Some cities of north eastern Sicily and Catania was never conquered by the muslims and excluding Palermo and Mazara del Vallo the rest of the island was conquered from 850 to 965-980 and eastern Sicily (specially Messina, Siracusa and Etna and Iblei cities) was reconquered by Giorgio Maniace in 1038, the last muslims remained in Noto in 1091 but the rest of the island were totally freed in 1063-1072. Today Scicli (Ragusa province) celebrates hunting of the saracens. So the medieval muslims ruled Sicily for two centuries circa. It was no a long rule as many people think.

Correct, Malta (was part of Sicily at that time) was liberated same year as Noto. However Both Roger I and II of Hautville were very tolerant towards the Muslims and encouraged a cosmopolitan society. The Muslim expulsions / conversions did not start until 1220 under the rule of the Hohenstaufen (FredrickII)
 
Thanks for sharing, i have seen that in Spain and Portugal is higher E-M81 than J1 so i think that medieval muslims were probably more berbers than arabs.

You might be interested in the English language book, "A History of Muslim Sicily" by Leonard C. Chiaroni.

I warn you it's very long, but it's the best analysis I've ever seen, in English or Italian, for this period of Sicilian and southern Italian history, and was very well received critically. One of the conclusions is that the majority of the people who actually settled in Sicily during that period were Berbers, that it was a male mediated invasion, and that the settlements were on a south/north cline.

As for the DiGaetano et al paper mentioned upthread, rather than being "the" resource about J1e in Sicily, it says almost nothing about it. (Just proof that one should actually read a paper before posting it.) This is the only excerpt I could find about J1 in the paper:

"Haplogroups common both to the European and Eurasian populations are present in Sicily. The most represented are R1b1c-M269 (24.58%), J2-M172 (15.25%) and E3b1a-M78 (11.44%). The co-occurrence of the Berber E3b1b-M81 (2.12%) and of the Mid-Eastern J1-M267 (3.81%) Hgs together with the presence of E3b1a1-V12, E3b1a3-V22, E3b1a4-V65 (5.5%) support the hypothesis of intrusion of North African genes.7, 12"

The estimates for EM-81, at 2.12%, are actually much lower in this paper than in some others. As to the J1, as I tried to point out upthread, at the time this paper was written they still had not resolved the subclades of J1, so it's impossible to know how much of this actually arrived during the Muslim invasions versus prior periods. I think the same can be said for some of the non EM-81 "E" clades, i.e. I don't know how it can really be said whether they came to Sicily in Neolithic times, during the Metal Ages, or indeed during the Muslim Conquest. We're going to need more resolution of the "E" as well as the "J1" clades, and more sampling and testing for those clades in order to get a better handle on what actually happened. Some old Dna would help, too.
 

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