Distribution of haplogroup J1 in Italy (Boattini et al.)

Normans were called by Papal state for remove the muslims why they were tollerant? a totally falsity. Search the biography of Ibn Hamdis and Al Ballanubi for that and you can notice that most of the muslims left Sicily already during the norman period.
 
Normans were called by Papal state for remove the muslims why they were tollerant? a totally falsity. Search the biography of Ibn Hamdis and Al Ballanubi for that and you can notice that most of the muslims left Sicily already during the norman period.

Falsity? :confused:

[h=2]Cultural interactions[edit][/h]

Roger II depicted on an Arabic-style mosaic. Cappella Palatina.​


The Tabula Rogeriana, drawn byAl-Idrisi for Roger II in 1154, one of the most advanced ancient world maps. Note North is to the bottom of the map.​


Coronation mantel of Roger II. It bears an inscription in Arabic with theHijri date of 528 (1133–1134).​

An intense Norman-Arab-Byzantine culture developed, exemplified by rulers such as Roger II of Sicily, who had Islamic soldiers, poets and scientists at his court.[12] Roger II himself spoke Arabic perfectly and was fond of Arab culture.[13] He used Arab troops and siege engines in his campaigns in southern Italy. He mobilized Arab architects to build monuments in the Norman-Arab-Byzantine style. The various agricultural and industrial techniques which had been introduced by Arabs into Sicily over the two preceding centuries were kept and developed, allowing for the remarkable prosperity of the Island.[14] For Europe, Sicily became a model and an example which was universally admired.[15]
One of the greatest geographical treatises of the Middle Ages was written by the AndalusianMuhammad al-Idrisi for Roger, and entitled Kitab Rudjdjar ("The book of Roger").[16] The Norman Kingdom of Sicily under Roger II was characterised by its multi-ethnic nature and religious tolerance.[17] Normans, Muslim Arabs, Byzantine Greeks, Longobards and "native" Sicilians lived in harmony.[18][19] He dreamed of establishing an Empire that would have encompassed Fatimid Egypt and the Crusader states in the Levant.[20]
Although the language of the court was French (Langue d'oïl), all royal edicts were written in the language of the people they were addressed to: Latin, Greek, Arabic, or Hebrew.[21]Roger's royal mantel, used for his coronation (and also used for the coronation of Frederick II), bore an inscription in Arabic with the Hijri date of 528 (1133–1134).
Islamic authors would marvel at the tolerance of the Norman kings:
They [the Muslims] were treated kindly, and they were protected, even against the Franks. Because of that, they had great love for king Roger.
Ibn al-Athir[22]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture

 
You might be interested in the English language book, "A History of Muslim Sicily" by Leonard C. Chiaroni.

I warn you it's very long, but it's the best analysis I've ever seen, in English or Italian, for this period of Sicilian and southern Italian history, and was very well received critically. One of the conclusions is that the majority of the people who actually settled in Sicily during that period were Berbers, that it was a male mediated invasion, and that the settlements were on a south/north cline.

As for the DiGaetano et al paper mentioned upthread, rather than being "the" resource about J1e in Sicily, it says almost nothing about it. (Just proof that one should actually read a paper before posting it.) This is the only excerpt I could find about J1 in the paper:

"Haplogroups common both to the European and Eurasian populations are present in Sicily. The most represented are R1b1c-M269 (24.58%), J2-M172 (15.25%) and E3b1a-M78 (11.44%). The co-occurrence of the Berber E3b1b-M81 (2.12%) and of the Mid-Eastern J1-M267 (3.81%) Hgs together with the presence of E3b1a1-V12, E3b1a3-V22, E3b1a4-V65 (5.5%) support the hypothesis of intrusion of North African genes.7, 12"

The estimates for EM-81, at 2.12%, are actually much lower in this paper than in some others. As to the J1, as I tried to point out upthread, at the time this paper was written they still had not resolved the subclades of J1, so it's impossible to know how much of this actually arrived during the Muslim invasions versus prior periods. I think the same can be said for some of the non EM-81 "E" clades, i.e. I don't know how it can really be said whether they came to Sicily in Neolithic times, during the Metal Ages, or indeed during the Muslim Conquest. We're going to need more resolution of the "E" as well as the "J1" clades, and more sampling and testing for those clades in order to get a better handle on what actually happened. Some old Dna would help, too.
I have read this book and another interesting book is the book by David Abulafia. Regarding other studies, the most recent studies (Boattini, Brisighelli and Sarno) show that E-M81 remained 2% circa (1,5% in Sarno) while E-V65 is no longer appeared and E-V12 and E-V22 were also found in other parts of Italy where never conquered by the muslims. I do not think that everything of those subclades are entered during those two centuries of muslim occupation.
 
Falsity? :confused:

Cultural interactions[edit]


Roger II depicted on an Arabic-style mosaic. Cappella Palatina.​


The Tabula Rogeriana, drawn byAl-Idrisi for Roger II in 1154, one of the most advanced ancient world maps. Note North is to the bottom of the map.​


Coronation mantel of Roger II. It bears an inscription in Arabic with theHijri date of 528 (1133?€“1134).​

An intense Norman-Arab-Byzantine culture developed, exemplified by rulers such as Roger II of Sicily, who had Islamic soldiers, poets and scientists at his court.[12] Roger II himself spoke Arabic perfectly and was fond of Arab culture.[13] He used Arab troops and siege engines in his campaigns in southern Italy. He mobilized Arab architects to build monuments in the Norman-Arab-Byzantine style. The various agricultural and industrial techniques which had been introduced by Arabs into Sicily over the two preceding centuries were kept and developed, allowing for the remarkable prosperity of the Island.[14] For Europe, Sicily became a model and an example which was universally admired.[15]
One of the greatest geographical treatises of the Middle Ages was written by the AndalusianMuhammad al-Idrisi for Roger, and entitled Kitab Rudjdjar ("The book of Roger").[16] The Norman Kingdom of Sicily under Roger II was characterised by its multi-ethnic nature and religious tolerance.[17] Normans, Muslim Arabs, Byzantine Greeks, Longobards and "native" Sicilians lived in harmony.[18][19] He dreamed of establishing an Empire that would have encompassed Fatimid Egypt and the Crusader states in the Levant.[20]
Although the language of the court was French (Langue d'oïl), all royal edicts were written in the language of the people they were addressed to: Latin, Greek, Arabic, or Hebrew.[21]Roger's royal mantel, used for his coronation (and also used for the coronation of Frederick II), bore an inscription in Arabic with the Hijri date of 528 (1133?€“1134).
Islamic authors would marvel at the tolerance of the Norman kings:
They [the Muslims] were treated kindly, and they were protected, even against the Franks. Because of that, they had great love for king Roger.
Ibn al-Athir[22]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture

It's also true that many muslims left Sicily and Malta after the norman conquest, Ibn Hamdis sang the praises of Sicily during his exile.
 
I have read this book and another interesting book is the book by David Abulafia.I do not think that everything of those subclades are entered during those two centuries of muslim occupation.

Yes, Abulafia's book is also excellent. We are in agreement that all of these other subclades of "E", and the totality of the J1 shouldn't be summed with E-M81 to get an idea of the North African "Y" footprint in Sicily (and southern Italy).

Given that the autosomal input would be even smaller, this habit of finding "North African" looking people on every corner in Sicily is pretty nonsensical. Even someone like Zidane doesn't fit, and not because of pigmentation.
 
It'd make sense that much of the North African input is ancient, because I know in Iberia, one of the regions with the highest amount of North African linked y-dna is Galicia (in northwest Spain), and this region was not under Moorish rule for very long compared to places in the south of Spain and Portugal. Same as in Sicily -- Ragusa (which that study had as 10% J1 and the highest on the island of the sampled regions) as not the main center of Moorish settlement, rather Palermo was.
 
The historians say very often that Val di Noto and Val Demone (east Sicily) remained with majority greek speaking orthodox while the arab influence was strong in the Val di Mazara and especially in Palermo. In fact in the eastern Sicily has not monuments of arab origins, most of the mosques converted to church are in Palermo and in Trapani. As dialect the same, the arab words in the Val Demone and Val di Noto are generally agricultural terms.
23lfr14.jpg
 
:)
The historians say very often that Val di Noto and Val Demone (east Sicily) remained with majority greek speaking orthodox while the arab influence was strong in the Val di Mazara and especially in Palermo. In fact in the eastern Sicily has not monuments of arab origins, most of the mosques converted to church are in Palermo and in Trapani. As dialect the same, the arab words in the Val Demone and Val di Noto are generally agricultural terms.
23lfr14.jpg

I like these details of history as very often we just get the general big picture which there is so much more to it. Also many events happened beyond anyone's memory so we have to rely on passed down stories and writings. Of course we all know that these can get very distorted as time goes by and only promoted or shelved according the political situation of the day. When I was a kid we used to have a good chunk of Maltese history relating to all sorts of legends against the (arabs / Muslims) even called a Valley the Valley of the dogs (wied il Klieb), to were the last remaining Muslims were chased away. But all that today would be classified as Racist and xenophobic and not allowed anymore. To the contrary the curriculum of Maltese history is about the positive aspects of the Aglabide and Fhatmid rule, with great systems of water collection and irrigation and many Friuts introduced during the era, the encouragement of learing and new types of musical instruments we still use today (guitar example)....... Some also claim that the moorish occupaton has contributed to the European renaissance. Example It surely has nothing to do with the perversion of the ISIS psyche and regression we see today :)
 
:)

When I was a kid we used to have a good chunk of Maltese history relating to all sorts of legends against the (arabs / Muslims) even called a Valley the Valley of the dogs (wied il Klieb), to were the last remaining Muslims were chased away. But all that today would be classified as Racist and xenophobic and not allowed anymore. To the contrary the curriculum of Maltese history is about the positive aspects of the Aglabide and Fhatmid rule, with great systems of water collection and irrigation and many Friuts introduced during the era, the encouragement of learing and new types of musical instruments we still use today (guitar example)....... Some also claim that the moorish occupaton has contributed to the European renaissance. Example It surely has nothing to do with the perversion of the ISIS psyche and regression we see today :)
It's the same in Sicily, some cities some cities are celebrating the arrival of the normans and lombards and the banishment of arabs. However agriculture and science flourished during that period but mostly in Palermo. For example the cultivation of the oranges and lemons.
 
I think you guys are really missing the broader picture here: J1-M267 is almost as diverse as R1b, if not more. None of the peer-reviewed studies to date managed to provide a thorough analysis of its subclades, even though a considerable amount of progress has been made in regards to J1's phylogeny.

Until we get a thorough analysis of J1 subclades as well as aDNA from the Near East, we're bound to shoot blanks in the dark.
 
Yes you are right, but you cannot expect people to go from ignorance to PHD level of knowledge on J1 subclades particularly when it is uncommon in Europe, thought of as being foreign, Jewish, Arabian and so on. No-one says R1b is foreign as it originated in Asia well outside Europe and was not found in Europe until the late Neolithic and Metal ages. There is a lot of prejudice also. Your subclade is particularly Jewish, there are subclades of J1 that are Arabian in origin, any European with your subclade or an Arabian one definitely have a Jewish or Arabian paternal ancestor, but so far those Europeans are not common. I am going by the J1 project at FTDNA and the place of origin of the paternal ancestor.

Most studies are laughable using SNPs which are private or sticking with M267 or P58 as if they mean something. M267 is at least 16,000 years old or older, so there are many, many downstream SNPs, P58 is by one grain of sand on the beach of J1 phylogenetic tree and not particularly significant of anything.
 
I am in Sicily now. I want to collect samples here . Am J1 M267 myself. Trying to find some university or business to fund this project.
 
I am in Sicily now. I want to collect samples here . Am J1 M267 myself. Trying to find some university or business to fund this project.
Good luck and keep us posted.
 
Crappy work.

You didn't add the data from Capell et al 2009.

NorthAfricanNearEasternYChromosomesinSouthernEurope.jpg


Also I've done the calculations and the frequency of J1 for Campania is 5.5% without the Capelli et al 2009 data, and 4.3% with the complete data, and not 6% as on there.
 
Where in Boattini does this come from?


  • In Central Tuscany, 3 out of 41 samples were J1 (7%).
 
Where in Boattini does this come from?


  • In Central Tuscany, 3 out of 41 samples were J1 (7%).

This is the data from this Boattini study for Central Italy:
Central Italy

In La Spezia-Massa, north-west Tuscany, 0 out of 24 samples are J1 (0%).

In Pistoia, central-north Tuscany, 1 out of 13 samples are J1e (7.5%).

In Grosetto-Siena, southern Tuscany, 3 out of 86 samples are J1 (3.5%), including one J1e sample.

In Foligno, central-east Umbria, 2 out of 37 samples are J1 (5.5%), including one J1e sample.

In Macerata, central-east Marche, 1 out of 40 samples are J1 (2.5%).

This is the problem with this study...good idea to use regional surnames, best resolution of clades we've seen so far for Italy, but perhaps because of budgetary constraints, impossibly small samples, so small that it's probably not a good idea to take the percentages all that seriously. That 7.5% figure comes from a grand total of 13 samples.

The averages Maciamo has computed are probably the best bet for now, although the subclade resolution or rather the lack of it means that in the case of Y dna "J1" it tells us almost nothing about when or with whom it arrived.
 
Thanks for the replies. I don't yet have enough credits to award any clout.

I am a little confused by the old notation J* and wonder, is it obsolete?

In Computer Science (database notation) and certain branches of Mathematics a * usually collects all variations, but I am sensing that this is not the case in Genetics?
 
In Pistoia, central-north Tuscany, 1 out of 13 samples are J1e (7.5%).

My grandparents came from a tiny village (near Lucca and Pisa) within 50 KM of Pistoia,
and in PISTOIA my surname is found with very high frequency.

But according to the results with 23andMe, I am definitely J1 J-M267, not J1e.
 

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