Immigration Does the Qur'an encourages peace and tolerance toward non-Muslims ?

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Comments on the Introduction to the Qur'an by M.A.S. Abdel Haleem, Oxford World's Classics.

Page xxii : Issues of Interpretations

Abdel Haleem said:
Some examples will illustrate this feature, for instance the verse 'Slay them whenever you find them' (2:191), thus translated by Dawood and taken out of context, has been interpreted to mean that Muslims may kill non-Muslims wherever they find them. In fact the only situations where the Qur'an allows Muslims to fight are in self-defence and to defend the oppressed who call for help (4:75), but even in the latter case this is restricted to those with whom the Muslims do not have any treaty obligations (8:72). The pronoun 'them' here refers to the words 'those who attack you' at the beginning of the previous verse. Thus the Prophet and his followers are here being allowed to fight the Meccans who attack them. The Qur'an makes many general statements but it is abundantly clear from the grammar and the context of this statement that this is not one of them.

Abdel Haleem is trying here to make the apology of Islam proning violence. He starts by complaining about the translation of the Qur'an by N.J. Dawood (dating from 1956) that was " taken out of context", and thus giving a wrong idea about the Qur'an allowing Muslims to kill non-Muslims. Let's see what his own translation says then :

Qur'an translation by Abdel Haleem (sura 2:191) said:
Kill them wherever you encounter them, and drive them out from where they drove you out, for persecution is worse than killing. Do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque unless they fight you there. If they do fight you, kill them-- this is what such disbelievers deserve

I do not see in what the quoted passage of Dawood's translation differ much from Abdel Haleem. "Slay" and "kill" mean the same; "find" and "encounter" in this case also mean the same.

Abdel Haleem then continues saying :

Abdel Haleem said:
In the six verses [about war] we find four prohibitions; seven restrictions (one 'until', four 'if', two 'who fights you'); as well as such cautions as 'in God's cause', 'be mindful of God', 'God is most forgiving and merciful'. The prevalent message of the Qur'an is one of peace and tolerance but it allows self-defence

[my bolds]

I am not sure I understand how the message could be one of peace and tolerance when it is question to kill the disbelievers, not convert, persuade, negotiate or whatever other more pacific solution; especially since the Qur'an also says later on (sura 9:5) :

Qur'an (sura 9:5) said:
When the [four] forbidden months are over, whenever you encounter the idolaters [or 'polytheists', depending on the translation], kill them, seize them, besiege them, wait for them at every lookout post; but if they turn [to God], maintain the prayer, and pay the prescribed alms, let them go on their way, for God is most forgiving and merciful.

We see that God is indeed most forgiving and merciful, as long as people convert to Islam and pay the alms, even under death threat.

Abdel Haleem tries to justify this passage by explaining :

Abdel Haleem said:
Yet the main clause of the sentence --'kill the polytheists'-- is singled out by some non-Muslims as representing the Islamic attitude to war; even some Muslims take this view and allege that this verse abrogated many other verses, including 'There is no compulsion in religion' (2:256) and even, according to one solitary extremist, 'God is forgiving and merciful'. This far-fetched interpretation isolates and decontextualizes a small part of a sentence and of a passage, 9:1-15, which gives many reasons for the order to fight such polytheists: they continually broke their agreements and aided others against the Muslims, they started hostilities against the Muslims, barred others from becoming Muslims, expelled them from the Holy Mosque and even from their own homes. At least eight times the passage mentions the misdeeds of these people against the Muslims.

Abdel Haleem is basically saying that God gave the Muslims the right to fight and kill the polytheists/idolaters because they had broken their agreements, barred others from becoming Muslims, etc. In today's world, little would be needed for Muslims to find similar justifications to kill non-Muslims. Imagine that a Western or Chinese company breaks its agreements with a Muslim-owned company, and that would allow Muslims to kill the "disbelievers". Make it a political issue, and they are now allowed to seek to destroy a whole nation, as they some Muslims organizations or nations are already doing with Israel or the USA, regardless that millions of Israeli and Americans do not have any control on their politicians' speeches or actions, and may even strongly disagree with them. Taking this to everday life, it would mean that a Muslim could kill you if you break an agreement with them, or if you prevent them in any way to convert someone to Islam. So if you tell someone some scientific facts, philosohpical ideas, or religious beliefs other than Islamic, that could thwart a person's attempted convertion to Islam, all the Muslims in the world would have their god's "statutory" approval to kill you.

The problem with the Qur'an is that its world view is far too simplistic, because it was written in the 7th century, and in a part of the world that wasn't the apex of civilization at the time (China, India or the Byzantine Empire were more politically advanced and complex). As Abdel Haleem said himself "the Qur'an makes many general statements", but he also prefaced his translation of the holy book by :

The Qur'an (back cover and preface) said:
The Qur'an, believed by Muslims to be the word of God, was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad 1,400 years ago. It is the supreme authority in Islam and the living source of all Islamic teachings; it is a sacred text and a book of guidance, that sets out the creed, rituals, ethics, and laws of the Islamic religion.
...

If the Qur'an is believed to be the exact word of God, and therefore so perfect, why is everything so dependent on some obscure events that took place in a desertic tribes land, and all its many generalisations should be understood only "in this context" ? In other words, the Qur'an was good enough when Muhammad received it from God, but it has now expired because the context is no longer relevant. If not, it means that what is written should still be used as a set of creed, rituals, ethics, and laws. But then, one cannot ignore that the Qur'an says explicitly "whenever you encounter the polytheists, kill them, seize them, besiege them, wait for them at every lookout post", unless they convert and pay the alms, of course. For me, either it is a historical relic of a past age, or it does not promote peace and tolerance toward non-Muslims.

Predicting his inability to convince some Western readers, Abdel Haleem carries on his explanations about the "misinterpretations" of the Qur'an :

Abdel Haleem said:
One further cause of misinterpretation is the lack of awareness of the different meanings of a given term in different contexts. Thus, for example, in Dawood's translation: 'He that chooses a religion other than Islam, it will not be accepted of him and in the world to come, he will be one of the lost' (3:85), it has be borne in mind that the word islam in the Arabic of the Qur'an means complete devotion/submission to God, unmixed with worship of any other. All earlier prophets are thus described by the Qur'an as muslim. Those who read this word islam in the sense of the religion of the Prophet Muhammad will set up a barrier, illegitimately based on this verse, between Islam and other monotheistic religions. The Qur'an clearly defines its relationship with earlier sriptures by saying: 'He has sent the Scripture down to you [Prophet] with the Truth, confirming what went before: He sent down the Torah and the Gospel earlier as a guide for people' (3:3-4). Indeed it urges the Christians and the Jews to practise their religion (5:68, 45, 47). They are given the honorific title of 'People of the Book', and the Qur'an appeals to what is common between them: 'Say, "People of the Book, let us arrive at a statement that is common to us all: we worship God alone, we ascribe no partner to Him, and none of us takes others beside God as lords" ' (3:64).

Here, Abdel Haleem argues that the previous English translation by Dawood has mistranslated the term islam (a devoted monotheist) for Islam (the religion). So Muslims want peace with the Jews and the Christians, the honored "People of the Book", the other monotheists believing in the same God ! How wonderful, Westerners have no reason to fear Islam anymore ! But if the translator thinks that this will make most Europeans or East Asians feel better about Islam, he is deeply mistaken, because a majority of them are atheists, deists, agnostics, neo-pagans, or anyway non-practising Christians (see article). Abdel Haleem's second mistake is to believe that Muslims are indeed better inclined toward the Jews and the Christians, especially when we see that the most violent Islamic organization have the state of Israel and the very Christian Bush administration as their prime target.
 
either it is a historical relic of a past age, or it does not promote peace and tolerance toward non-Muslims.
I think it is a historic relic of a past age, but it is used to justify violence.
 
Here we see Aleem casting about for justifications through "interpretation". It has been my experience with religion, as a mildly religious man, that the worst excesses stemming from religion come about in just this way. Because religion tends to be based on Jungian archetypes, metaphors etc there is a free range for anyone to find justification in their views based on nuances and subtleties and "interpretation". I'm not a Christian apologist by any means, but the very best thing one can say about the New Testament in any translation is that is teaches unqualified peace and acceptance. The Koran has many frightening passages, especially when the concept of Abrogation is factored in.
 
Fundamentalist Islam is a religion and a political system rolled into one-- and cannot be divided. Until the West realizes this fact, issues with the Muslim world will continue.
 
The Muslim religion is full of contradictions these days.
 
Yes real muslims are a threat to europeans, because they follow islam correctly, with no exceptions. Which is good in the way that they're not hypocrites, if you believe that the Qur'an is written with the exact words from god, and god is the creator of universe and so on, then well... you should fullfill your duty as a jihadist. Otherwise you can just boycott the religion fully.

It's like saying you want to eat the apple but you don't like the taste.
 
the word Jihad is corrupted by Muslim terrorists.

MOST Muslims know it to mean a lifelong struggle against yourself (fight your own temptation/sin) to better yourself.
Just like practicing Christians who believe the same thing, only under a different name.
 
I think most people who aren't muslims misunderstand what muslims mean when they say that islam is a religion of peace. To muslims, the "world of peace" is islam and the world of war is everything that isn't islam. So the way to get universal peace (universal islam) is to slaughter any "infidel" who refuse to convert. There are a couple of exceptions to that rule provided in the koran. People of the book (which some muslims define as only including christians and jews) can be harassed and threatened and taxed excessively to encourage them to convert but are not to be slaughtered. The other exception is where muslims are living in a country where "infidels" are in control. Muslims living in that situation are to preach peace and tolerance for all religions so that islam can flourish there. Only once muslims are numerous enough to take control do they have a religious obligation to slaughter the infidel.

And muslims do seem to put this into practice, with many muslim countries having special taxes on the "dhimmi", which I believe refers to those "infidels" who are to be harassed and threatened and subject to additional taxes but not slaughtered, although modern muslim scholars have reinterpreted the term "dhimmi" to include not just christians and jews but any "infidel", provided they are not living in or around the muslim holy areas, especially Mecca. What I wonder is whether such tolerance is based on the perception that, since muslims are not in control of the world at large, muslims should try to present a more tolerant face to the world until such time as they can increase the muslim population in Europe and North America.

Any muslims here should feel free to tell me if I've gotten any of this wrong.
 
I think most people who aren't muslims misunderstand what muslims mean when they say that islam is a religion of peace. To muslims, the "world of peace" is islam and the world of war is everything that isn't islam. So the way to get universal peace (universal islam) is to slaughter any "infidel" who refuse to convert. There are a couple of exceptions to that rule provided in the koran. People of the book (which some muslims define as only including christians and jews) can be harassed and threatened and taxed excessively to encourage them to convert but are not to be slaughtered. The other exception is where muslims are living in a country where "infidels" are in control. Muslims living in that situation are to preach peace and tolerance for all religions so that islam can flourish there. Only once muslims are numerous enough to take control do they have a religious obligation to slaughter the infidel.

And muslims do seem to put this into practice, with many muslim countries having special taxes on the "dhimmi", which I believe refers to those "infidels" who are to be harassed and threatened and subject to additional taxes but not slaughtered, although modern muslim scholars have reinterpreted the term "dhimmi" to include not just christians and jews but any "infidel", provided they are not living in or around the muslim holy areas, especially Mecca. What I wonder is whether such tolerance is based on the perception that, since muslims are not in control of the world at large, muslims should try to present a more tolerant face to the world until such time as they can increase the muslim population in Europe and North America.

Any muslims here should feel free to tell me if I've gotten any of this wrong.
I would say that people of any religion would love to see the whole world believing in their faith. Muslims are not exceptions in this department. The problem is that they are stuck in middle ages with their traditions, and many of them don't think and act differently than middle ages Christians spreading Christianity with the sward. My point is, Europe managed to get more tolerant and inclusive with times, and there is nothing to stop middle eastern societies from following this trend. It is just a mater of time. People in middle east are not that genetically different from Europeans to justify different behavior. In this case all points to upbringing and education, and this can be fixed in rather short time.
One of the main problems is that they were overwhelmed by Western/Christian world for last 200 years. It made them feel insecure, inferior, and used. It usually unites people to the fight against well defined enemy.
The only cure is to make sure they develop their economies, democratize governance and become feeling as masters of their destiny. This will liberalize their societies in western ways and will push Islam religion to a third row of importance of their lives.
 
Yes, the christians were real barbarians at one time, and a few of them still are, as you will find if you visit certain backward parts of the developing world, such as Texas. However, most christians became much more civilized over time, and it would be nice to think that the moslems could too, if they were given the chance.
 
I dont like any of the desert religions. :annoyed:
Im a Finnish pagan, it is similar to Shintoism so more about harmony and remembering forefathers.
 
Predictable.
 
I think most people who aren't muslims misunderstand what muslims mean when they say that islam is a religion of peace. To muslims, the "world of peace" is islam and the world of war is everything that isn't islam. So the way to get universal peace (universal islam) is to slaughter any "infidel" who refuse to convert. There are a couple of exceptions to that rule provided in the koran. People of the book (which some muslims define as only including christians and jews) can be harassed and threatened and taxed excessively to encourage them to convert but are not to be slaughtered. The other exception is where muslims are living in a country where "infidels" are in control. Muslims living in that situation are to preach peace and tolerance for all religions so that islam can flourish there. Only once muslims are numerous enough to take control do they have a religious obligation to slaughter the infidel.

And muslims do seem to put this into practice, with many muslim countries having special taxes on the "dhimmi", which I believe refers to those "infidels" who are to be harassed and threatened and subject to additional taxes but not slaughtered, although modern muslim scholars have reinterpreted the term "dhimmi" to include not just christians and jews but any "infidel", provided they are not living in or around the muslim holy areas, especially Mecca. What I wonder is whether such tolerance is based on the perception that, since muslims are not in control of the world at large, muslims should try to present a more tolerant face to the world until such time as they can increase the muslim population in Europe and North America.

Any muslims here should feel free to tell me if I've gotten any of this wrong.

+1 usefull
 
I think with conditions,Islam only allows Muslims that approach of non-Muslims in economic issues.

Nor in culture, nor religion, nor family, nor traditions,but in reality these days almost any Muslim country applies this.
 
I think most people who aren't muslims misunderstand what muslims mean when they say that islam is a religion of peace. To muslims, the "world of peace" is islam and the world of war is everything that isn't islam. So the way to get universal peace (universal islam) is to slaughter any "infidel" who refuse to convert. There are a couple of exceptions to that rule provided in the koran. People of the book (which some muslims define as only including christians and jews) can be harassed and threatened and taxed excessively to encourage them to convert but are not to be slaughtered. The other exception is where muslims are living in a country where "infidels" are in control. Muslims living in that situation are to preach peace and tolerance for all religions so that islam can flourish there. Only once muslims are numerous enough to take control do they have a religious obligation to slaughter the infidel.

And muslims do seem to put this into practice, with many muslim countries having special taxes on the "dhimmi", which I believe refers to those "infidels" who are to be harassed and threatened and subject to additional taxes but not slaughtered, although modern muslim scholars have reinterpreted the term "dhimmi" to include not just christians and jews but any "infidel", provided they are not living in or around the muslim holy areas, especially Mecca. What I wonder is whether such tolerance is based on the perception that, since muslims are not in control of the world at large, muslims should try to present a more tolerant face to the world until such time as they can increase the muslim population in Europe and North America.

Any muslims here should feel free to tell me if I've gotten any of this wrong.

You've gotten all of it right. (y)

Quran and hadith are the law of an obsolete theocratic, imperialistic political system.
 
No..it s not. At least today.. Theese facts have proven it (Charlie hebdo, London bombing, Paris bombing, theo Van Gogh..)

Ask us Southern European what an harm was islam in the Middle Ages.. Continuous rape by sarcens/ottomans on our coasts (slavization of us women; and killings of our men)

Read what were the Martyrs of Otranto.
 
No..it s not. At least today.. Theese facts have proven it (Charlie hebdo, London bombing, Paris bombing, theo Van Gogh..)

Ask us Southern European what an harm was islam in the Middle Ages.. Continuous rape by sarcens/ottomans on our coasts (slavization of us women; and killings of our men)

Read what were the Martyrs of Otranto.
I'm sure Muslims from Andalusia, Levant and Bosnia can tell us similar stories about Christian warriors.
 
No..never we captured Muslim women, and never we raped their coasts. Only in the case of Jerusalem.

Muslims were always our enemies. Never were friends with us. Inform about Dhimma yourself
 

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