Immigration Does the Qur'an encourages peace and tolerance toward non-Muslims ?

Sorry to disappoint you, Christian philosophy or attitude to women, slavery or other religions was exactly the same as Muslim back than. Attitude towards science was even worse. And IIRC, purging of muslims wasn't done by Italians but by Normans who conquered South Italy back then. But christians regardless. It was more about control of land, money and power than about religion. Christian women had to cover their heads back then exactly like muslim women. It is still a tradition in Sicily.
sicily-women-crocheting.jpg

These are modest married women, well except the one liberated.

Tell me, why Sicily was also purged from Jews by christians? Were they jihadists?

They are dressed in black, they are more likely widows or as a sign of mourning even for a distant relative. It's true that purging of muslims wasn't done by Italians but by Normans who conquered Sicily, but that was initially. There were many pogroms, attacks against muslims, since the mid XII century AD done by the so called lombardi of Sicily, northern Italians that settled in Sicily during the Norman kingdom.

Sicily was also purged from Jews due to the Spanish crown.


Maybe it started in classical Greece?
5413-2.jpg


8e7c733e464d1e48f6ddee8b368675d4.jpg

According wikipedia

The first recorded instance of veiling for women is recorded in an Assyrian legal text from the 13th century BC, which restricted its use to noble women and forbade prostitutes and common women from adopting it. The Mycenaean Greek term, a-pu-ko-wo-ko, possibly meaning "headband makers" or "craftsmen of horse veil", and written in Linear B syllabic script, is also attested since ca. 1300 BC. In ancient Greek the word for veil was καλύπτρα (kalyptra; Ionic Greek: καλύπτρη, kalyptrē; from the verb καλύπτω, kalyptō, "I cover") and is first attested in the works of Homer.
 
In Europe the process took 500 years, it is called the enlightment.
Nowadays muslims want to reverse the process. They want to install sharia in Europe. They ignore seperation between state and religion. They oppose democracy, they say islam serves a higher purpose.
Turkey is turning from a secular state to an islamic state. In his speeches Erdogan is all the time glorifying muslim superiority over other people. And Erdogan is very popular in Turkey, he has the majority who believe and support him : he simply tells the stories they like to hear. Some are dreaming of a new Ottoman Empire.
Do you see any movement for the better in Iran or Pakistan or in any other muslim state?
The only possibility seems to replace them by another totalitarian regime like in Egypt.
I don't see a solution either, but at least you should acknowledge that there is a big problem that won't just resolve itself.
I'm actually optimistic. Process of liberalization among Muslims will be much faster. They don't need to discover the process or goal, it is already there. If you want to see how it looks in reality, come to Canada and US. Most our Muslims are liberal, tolerant and hard working taxpayers. Rarely anyone wears their ethnic costumes, or religious insignia.
Or do you want WW3 to solve the problem? That is what you seem pointing at.
I have no idea were you got this from? Perhaps you confused me with Yetos, who advocates and expects WW3 for years.
 
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Hear this woman arguing with an imam on Egyptian tv re hijab....im sure not easy for her!


Sorry the ads make it impossible to see subtitles :( here is link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2rL6NDoyKg

The good news is that Muslim women are standing up and voicing their concerns and opinions. Few decades back, to question imam's views by a woman was unthinkable, blasphemy and death by stoning.
What we need to do is to help them and protect them from violent militant Islam.
 
They are dressed in black, they are more likely widows or as a sign of mourning even for a distant relative
Or a fashion of older people in a village. I could observe the same in Eastern Europe when I was a kid. Covering hair by women, actually married women, was a universal sign of ownership by a men (she is taken) in whole Europe and Middle East. I think in India too. It might as well got started by Assyrian aristocracy, spread through Near East, and then with Christianity to the whole Europe. What is interesting not many women realize significance of this custom. They perceive it as a sign of modesty, a proper thing to do, or local tradition or fashion. My mother never enters church with "naked" head.
Funny thing is when I was a kid I thought this was a discrimination against men. They never let me, or any men, into the church in a hat. However all women could wear scarfs, barrettes or hats there.
 
Or a fashion of older people in a village. I could observe the same in Eastern Europe when I was a kid. Covering hair by women, actually married women, was a universal sign of ownership by a men (she is taken) in whole Europe and Middle East. I think in India too. It might as well got started by Assyrian aristocracy, spread through Near East, and then with Christianity to the whole Europe. What is interesting not many women realize significance of this custom. They perceive it as a sign of modesty, a proper thing to do, or local tradition or fashion. My mother never enters church with "naked" head.
Funny thing is when I was a kid I thought this was a discrimination against men. They never let me, or any men, into the church in a hat. However all women could wear scarfs, barrettes or hats there.

You're right that no women went to church without a veil. I still have the one I wore when I was young. :)

However, at least in Italy the kerchief thing was basically a "peasant" tradition. Even women from working class households didn't wear them, and they weren't limited to married women either. Often, it was a way to keep the hair out of the face when working. Middle class women didn't do farm or factory work; perhaps that's why they didn't wear them. Women wore hats, of course, but so did men.

Also, you can't compare this even with a hijab, much less a full body covering like a burka. Those things are like shrouds! One of the things I adored about Oriana Fallaci is that she tore than damn thing off and dumped it right in front of Khomeini.

This total covering up of women is really an Islamic thing...absorbed from the culture of Arabia perhaps, not necessarily religious in origin, but now religious by accretion.

The Near East, like the Balkans, was the home of female fertility goddesses, let's not forget. Judaism had a horror of those rites, and of homosexuality. Some of that passed into Christianity, but some of the older attitudes from paganism in Europe and the Near East also survived.

All you need to do to see the gulf that exists between the Islamic world and the Christian world in their attitude towards women is to take a look at historical styles of dress in the west.

Even when women still wore head coverings, they hardly dressed modestly by Islamic standards...Anne, Duchess of York, who became a Queen, Diane de Poitiers, Madame de Pompadour, mistresses to French kings, and then the scandalous dress of Napoleonic France are just some examples. Josephine and her friends pioneered sheer muslin dresses that they sometimes sponged down with water so they would leave virtually nothing to the imagination.

Diane kept the King with her from the time he was a boy until he died decades later, even though she was almost a full generation older. Maybe her style of dress had something to do with it? :)
http://www.quizz.biz/uploads/quizz/98901/1_FnD6B.jpg

http://www.gogmsite.net/_Media/anne-hyde-16381671-duchess-2.jpeg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...tier,_Madame_de_Pompadour_en_Diane_(1746).jpg

Ninon de Lenclos:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mb6hU_h-M...yaON7DPRo2o/s400/180px-Ninon_de_Lenclos_2.jpg

http://bp0.blogger.com/_mb6hU_h-MnE...rrel9RA/s1600-h/510px-Pauline_Bonaparte_2.jpg

Also, there is nothing comparable to female circumcision even in Judaism, much less in Christianity. That's doubtless a holdover from the pagan Greeks who held that even male circumcision was an abomination.

Likewise, remember that from a woman's point of view, it's a big deal that Christianity didn't permit polygamy, or easy divorce, although royalty could get annulments, of course, and serial polygamists existed, like Henry VIII, although most men just waited for their wives to die in childbirth...they didn't behead them!

Still, where is the tradition like that of Chaucer's Lusty Wife of Bath in Islam? I don't know of any.
http://english.fsu.edu/canterbury/wifepro.html

Historically, I think there's actually a bit of a consensus that the attitude toward women in Christianity, in terms of marriage, but also in giving women a role, even if limited, in religious institutions, was one of the reasons that Christianity gained converts. It was known, before the days of Constantine, as the religion of women and slaves, and the poor.
 
Female genital mutilation predates Islam. It was practiced in Ancient Egypt probably and its origins are Northeastern African in my opinion. In Ethiopia it is prevalent although the majority of people aren't Muslims. In Maghreb countries it isn't practiced. In Iran it is officially 'permissible but not obligatory' and not prevalent.
 
I won't do that. It is an internal process. Just have a look at Albania or Bosnia, and how they can be tolerant muslims and find their place in western world. I'm sure Europe is not afraid of them, or Islamisation coming from them.
If you live in Middle Ages, when infidels (non-christian) were burned by holy inquisition and Balts were taught christianity by sward, or later during 100 year war, you wouldn't guess that Christian Europe can change either. Should we mention times of WW2 when fascism and communism ruled over Europe and 50 millions died due to their totalitarian ideas. Heck, it was only 70 years ago.
Change can come quickly and unexpectedly, and also by slow changes. Unless you think that Muslims are genetically different from Christians or Western folks, and have genetic block against tolerance.

Albania is as secular as it is because a totalitarian regime didn't recognize any religion and supported "atheistic propaganda in order to implant a scientific materialistic world outlook in the people".
Mulims elsewhere may become more secular (probably due to Western influence this time) but not as fast.
 
Albania is as secular as it is because a totalitarian regime didn't recognize any religion and supported "atheistic propaganda in order to implant a scientific materialistic world outlook in the people".
Mulims elsewhere may become more secular (probably due to Western influence this time) but not as fast.

Ok, but it`s not only due to the totalitarian regime. First of all albanians in general are not what can be described as devout believers, especially the musslims. There are historical reasons for this. In Albania starts the dividing line between West Catholic and East Orthodox. But this line in Albania has not been something rigid. Albanians has change religion during their history from Catholics to Orthodox and vice versa. There is even an important Albanian scholar Dhimiter Shuteriqi who pretend that the epicenter of Bogomils was not in Bosnia but in Albania. For example read this:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanenses
Second, in the poetry symbol of the Albanian National Awakening, O moj Shqypni e mjera Shqypni (Oh Albania, Poor Albania) written by Pashko Vasa, it is a verse that says:
Wake, Albanian, from your slumber,
Let us, brothers, swear in common
And not look to church or mosque,
The Albanian's faith is Albanianism!

Third, after the creation of the Albanian state, the King of Albania Zog I attended a secular and very balanced policy regarding the religions in Albania. There are 4 religion in Albania. Musslim Suni, Bektashi, Catholics and Orthodox. I think that today's politicians in Europe have what they learn from the way that King Zog managed the religions and particularly Islam. And latter arrived the communist regime. And Albania became the first Atheist country in the world. In the Constitution of the People's Socialist Republic of Albania of year 1976:
Article 37
The state recognizes no religion whatever and supports atheist propaganda for the purpose of inculcating the scientific materialist world outlook in people.
 
Ok, but it`s not only due to the totalitarian regime. First of all albanians in general are not what can be described as devout believers, especially the musslims. There are historical reasons for this. In Albania starts the dividing line between West Catholic and East Orthodox. But this line in Albania has not been something rigid. Albanians has change religion during their history from Catholics to Orthodox and vice versa. There is even an important Albanian scholar Dhimiter Shuteriqi who pretend that the epicenter of Bogomils was not in Bosnia but in Albania. For example read this:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanenses
Second, in the poetry symbol of the Albanian National Awakening, O moj Shqypni e mjera Shqypni (Oh Albania, Poor Albania) written by Pashko Vasa, it is a verse that says:
Wake, Albanian, from your slumber,
Let us, brothers, swear in common
And not look to church or mosque,
The Albanian's faith is Albanianism!

Third, after the creation of the Albanian state, the King of Albania Zog I attended a secular and very balanced policy regarding the religions in Albania. There are 4 religion in Albania. Musslim Suni, Bektashi, Catholics and Orthodox. I think that today's politicians in Europe have what they learn from the way that King Zog managed the religions and particularly Islam. And latter arrived the communist regime. And Albania became the first Atheist country in the world. In the Constitution of the People's Socialist Republic of Albania of year 1976:
Article 37
The state recognizes no religion whatever and supports atheist propaganda for the purpose of inculcating the scientific materialist world outlook in people.

I only see that Albanian Muslim easily turn to Jihad,
according Interpol Albania Kossovo and Tettovo are among the 10 most jihad areas per population,
Kossovo 5fth
Albania 9nth
and from tettovo, which i do not know how population it has 28 are officially dead fighting for DAESH,

Thank you,
 
@LABERIA
I am aware of many things you said. Your post was useful though.

@Yetos
You should use citations.
 
I only see that Albanian Muslim easily turn to Jihad,
according Interpol Albania Kossovo and Tettovo are among the 10 most jihad areas per population,
Kossovo 5fth
Albania 9nth
and from tettovo, which i do not know how population it has 28 are officially dead fighting for DAESH,

Thank you,

I know that you hate Albanians and use any possibility to spread this hate.
 
I know that you hate Albanians and use any possibility to spread this hate.

and I know how you hate me, calling me testicle, in this forum
and I know how you hate Greeks as all Jihadists do,

and I know that every Jihadist describes his country as a heaven on earth

sorry but truth always hearts
 
@LABERIA
I am aware of many things you said. Your post was useful though.

@Yetos
You should use citations.

you are new to forum,
they are in many threads
hard enough to use links in forum
 
and I know how you hate me, calling me testicle, in this forum
and I know how you hate Greeks as all Jihadists do,

and I know that every Jihadist describes his country as a heaven on earth

sorry but truth always hearts
It`s not correct that you want to identify my country and me as Jihadist. You know very well that if i start, will be pain for you. But i want to respect the other members of this forum, not you. Because you know very well my opinion about you, you have mentioned it in your post.
 
It`s not correct that you want to identify my country and me as Jihadist. You know very well that if i start, will be pain for you. But i want to respect the other members of this forum, not you. Because you know very well my opinion about you.

sorry? what are you saying?
your personal hate against me and truth maybe shortens your memmory

it is not me, global newspappers and international organizations did,
not me,
 
sorry? what are you saying?
your personal hate against me and truth maybe shortens your memmory

it is not me, global newspappers and international organizations did,
not me,
Yetos, there is a thread, Balcan dissagreement. Go there and continue to speak with yourshelve. Don`t derail the thread.
 

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