E-m123*

[kingdavid]

Kingjohn, I've checked the results from this study and there is no information about e-m123* - it's only e-m123 which is almost for sure E-m34, as it's the case in many parts of Italy as Pax Augusta mentioned. In that case it's just normal presence of e-m34 which is indeed pre-Etruscan as it seems.

check again table s6
e-m123* was found in volterra
e-m34 mainly in apuglia and tyrenean calabria
e-m123* is ancient in europe probably neolithic in portugal
e-m34 is levantine ,jewish arrived with jewish slaves of roman empire , or pheonician sailors
and pax augusta it is 2/113 not 2/117 not taht it make such big difference ...


table s6 again
hope irt will work for you this time
View attachment 9723

 

[Azzurro]

check again table s6
e-m123* was found in volterra
e-m34 mainly in apuglia and tyrenean calabria
e-m123* is ancient in europe probably neolithic in portugal
e-m34 is levantine ,jewish arrived with jewish slaves of roman empire , or pheonician sailors
and pax augusta it is 2/113 not 2/117 not taht it make such big difference ...


table s6 again
hope irt will work for you this time
View attachment 9723

The E-M123 found in Volterra is probably related to the ones found in La Spezia under E-PH3893, which is under E-L791>Y4970 branch.

https://yfull.com/tree/E-Y4970/

As for in Puglia one on ftdna is positive under the E-Y2947 which another branch under E-L791.

E-L791 seems to be somewhat frequent in Italy.

As for other E-M123 in Puglia, its probably a mix of E-M84 lines and the above 2 mentioned. Definitely some can turn out to Jewish, Puglia had the second strongest Jewish presence after Sicily.

 

[Angela]

Maybe this is better?

[/IMG]

It's labeled E-123*

There are some E-M123(?) in Grosseto from Boattini et al.: 2 samples. Strs are provided in Table 2.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0065441

I quickly looked at Brisighelli, and they don't have anything from "Etruscan" areas, and nor does Sarno et al.

You might want to look at specifically "Etruscan" areas in Tuscany if you're going to rely on private company testing.

Sorry, 3 samples in Grosseto.

 

[Jovialis]

The E-M123 found in Volterra is probably related to the ones found in La Spezia under E-PH3893, which is under E-L791>Y4970 branch.

https://yfull.com/tree/E-Y4970/

As for in Puglia one on ftdna is positive under the E-Y2947 which another branch under E-L791.

E-L791 seems to be somewhat frequent in Italy.

As for other E-M123 in Puglia, its probably a mix of E-M84 lines and the above 2 mentioned. Definitely some can turn out to Jewish, Puglia had the second strongest Jewish presence after Sicily.

Many Jews from Puglia have been dispersed, I highly doubt they have the "second highest presence" in Italy as you have stated.

By 1540, the last expulsion finally ended Jewish life in Apulia. Most remaining Crypto-Jews were driven so deep underground that their presence finally came to an end as well. Some of the Apulian Jewish refugees fled north. However, most of them settled in Greece or the Aegean islands. The Apulian Jews set up new congregations in Corfu, Arta and Salonika. Sadly, the last remants of the Apulian Jews were murdered during the Holocaust.<sup>[3] [4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Apulia</sup>

 

[Azzurro]

Many Jews from Puglia have been dispersed, I highly doubt they have the "second highest presence" in Italy as you have stated.

Historically they did, you should read up on it

 

[Valerius]

So e-m123* is really present in Italy, quite interesting for me.

 

[Jovialis]

Historically they did, you should read up on it

I have read up on it, and the vast majority was forced out of Puglia or murdered; before that were relegated specific quarters. You should substantiate your claims.

 

[Azzurro]

I have read up on it, and they a vast majority was forced out of Puglia, and before that were relegated specific quarters. You should substantiate your claims.

Lmfaoo your trying to school me on Italian Jewish history, good luck. This thread is about E-M123* and not Italian Jewish history.

 

[Jovialis]

You're the one that had brought up the topic.

As for other E-M123 in Puglia, its probably a mix of E-M84 lines and the above 2 mentioned. Definitely some can turn out to Jewish, Puglia had the second strongest Jewish presence after Sicily.

Thus I am responding to it.

Many Jews from Puglia have been dispersed, I highly doubt they have the "second highest presence" in Italy as you have stated

....

I have read up on it, and the vast majority was forced out of Puglia or murdered; before that were relegated specific quarters. You should substantiate your claims.

What kind of a response by you is that?

Obviously you can't divorce history from the conversation of DNA. Why did you make the statement, if you do not wish to discuss it?

 

[Pax Augusta]

and pax augusta it is 2/113 not 2/117 not taht it make such big difference ...

Right, it's 113, but you know, it doesn't change anything.

The E-M123 found in Volterra is probably related to the ones found in La Spezia under E-PH3893, which is under E-L791>Y4970 branch.

https://yfull.com/tree/E-Y4970/

There are two from La Spezia, Liguria, and they both could be related to Napoleone (E-M34) and likely not to those from Volterra (E-M123*). Related to Napoleone in the sense of having a common ancestor, to be descendant from the same ancestor.

So e-m123* is really present in Italy, quite interesting for me.

According to Karachanak et al. 2013 E-M123 is 1,9% among Bulgarians an they all are E-M34.

Y-Chromosome Diversity in Modern Bulgarians: New Clues about Their Ancestry

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779

 

[Azzurro]

You're the one that had brought up the topic.



Thus I am responding to it.

What kind of a response by you is that?

Obviously you can't divorce history from the conversation of DNA. Why did you make the statement, if you do not wish to discuss it?

I’m not talking to you, you don’t understand the difference when I say Probably, Could, Had, Likely. Your just looking to pick a fight, i’m not interested.

 

[Azzurro]

Right, it's 113, but you know, it doesn't change anything.





There are two from La Spezia, Liguria, and they both could be related to Napoleone (E-M34) and likely not to those from Volterra (E-M123*). Related to Napoleone in the sense of having a common ancestor, to be descendant from the same ancestor.




According to Karachanak et al. 2013 E-M123 is 1,9% among Bulgarians.

Y-Chromosome Diversity in Modern Bulgarians: New Clues about Their Ancestry

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779

Pax, yes that is good point, I was saying that E-PH3893 is found in La Spezia geographically its too not far from Volterra, its a good possibility. The thing is even E-M123* is too broad, it could belong to either E-L791 or E-M84 branches.

 

[Jovialis]

I’m not talking to you, you don’t understand the difference when I say Probably, Could, Had, Likely. Your just looking to pick a fight, i’m not interested.

I am not interested in fighting, I am interested in civil discussion. I asked you why you said Puglia has the 2nd biggest Jewish presence in Italy when It was snuffed out over history. I am merely asking you a question.

However, you have made several offensive assumptions against me in the course of the conversation. That I don't know what I'm talking about as inferred by your comment that my knowledge is apparently inferior to yours on the subject. Also, that I do not understand the difference between basic words. Further, that asking a question is construed as some kind of hostile action.

 

[Azzurro]

I am not interested in fighting, I am interested in civil discussion. I asked you why you said Puglia has the 2nd biggest jewish presence in Italy when It was snuffed out over history. I am merely asking you a question.

I said Had, look at my post again.

 

[Valerius]

According to Karachanak et al. 2013 E-M123 is 1,9% among Bulgarians.

Y-Chromosome Diversity in Modern Bulgarians: New Clues about Their Ancestry

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779

Karachenak et al. detected E-M34, so I was told. There is also another Bulgarian who is
like me (xM34) found in some research 18 years ago. My male line is Vlach however, so it must be
also present in the Romanians. Probably common pre-Slavic stuff.

 

[Angela]

Here is what Maciamo has to say on the subject:

[/IMG]

So, I guess you'd have to see if you can run the strs from the Boattini et al sample and see if it can point you to anything more specific. It's not resolved in Grugni.

As for FTDNA, this is the link I looked at. I only scanned it quickly, but I didn't see any Y6923 anywhere in Italy.

There is no E-M123 in Toscana, or even in Puglia, since it was brought up, on this list.

Is there some other source to which I can look? Grugni doesn't resolve it for either place. As I said, there are the three samples in Boattini for which samples can be run.

In the future, if I could ask posters who are speculating about the origin or ethnicity of a specific clade to give us more detailed information about the samples they are using as to number, specific snp or whether strs are being used, and where they can be found. That would be most helpful.

So far as I can see, we only have three unresolved samples in Boattini for Grosseto, for which we at least have strs. The ones for Volterra in Grugni are unresolved and there are no strs.

I don't see any evidence for any specifically "Jewish" clade in Puglia. If anyone has it, please provide it. Indeed, if there are any samples anyone is aware of anywhere other than this, please provide them, so we can see if the conclusions proposed are reasonable.

 

[kingdavid]

Pax, yes that is good point, I was saying that E-PH3893 is found in La Spezia geographically its too not far from Volterra, its a good possibility. The thing is even E-M123* is too broad, it could belong to either E-L791 or E-M84 branches.

azurro my dear friend
you have a point about apuglia {jewish past}
but the ones here in volterra 2/113 1.8% are e-m123* you can see it in the table angela posted
meaning they were checked for e-m34 mutation and found negetive like valerius
i do think it is significant that they found e-m123% in volterra etruscan area even thoughit is low %
kind regards
adam

 

[Azzurro]

Here is what Maciamo has to say on the subject:

[/IMG]

So, I guess you'd have to see if you can run the strs from the Boattini et al sample and see if it can point you to anything more specific. It's not resolved in Grugni.

As for FTDNA, this is the link I looked at. I only scanned it quickly, but I didn't see any Y6923 anywhere in Italy.

There is no E-M123 in Toscana, or even in Puglia, since it was brought up, on this list.

Is there some other source to which I can look? Grugni doesn't resolve it for either place. As I said, there are the three samples in Boattini for which samples can be run.

In the future, if I could ask posters who are speculating about the origin or ethnicity of a specific clade to give us more detailed information about the samples they are using as to number, specific snp or whether strs are being used, and where they can be found. That would be most helpful.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/E3b?iframe=ymap

E-Y2947 is found in Bari, Y6923 does not exist in any population besides Ashkenazi Jews. Y6923 was never brought up.

 

[Jovialis]

I said Had, look at my post again.

Saying a community had been there and that a current line is present makes what you're saying unclear. Moreover, as Angela stated, it was not found in Puglia according to that list. For the sake of the other readers, I will ask that you are clearer. Moreover, if presented with a question, about something you had stated; please respond in a non-confrontational manner.

 

[Azzurro]

azurro my dear friend
you have a point about apuglia {jewish past}
but the ones here in volterra 2/113 1.8% are e-m123* you can see it in the table angela posted
meaning they were checked for e-m34 mutation and found negetive like valerius
i do think it is significant that they found e-m123% in volterra etruscan area even thoughit is low %
kind regards
adam

Kingjohn my dear friend, thanks for the support. The E-PH3893 found in La Spezia is probably very old, do we know that checked for M34? There are also 2 E-PF6759 found in Sardegna which are on Yfull, this too is under E-M34, if they did actually test for E-M34 and it turns out they are negative it only leaves Valerius’ subclade left.