E-m123*

Yes, I asked two different people to run the BAM files on all yDNA E samples from Swat, and both came up with the same results, all positive for Y31991. It appears two of them (I3262 and I1799) are also positive for PF4428. Since they are all related to each other (it's a family grave, in a clearly patriarchal and patrilocal setting) we can conclude all individuals are PF4428, or at the very least Y31991. I1992 is also related to the other men, so odds are the "E1a" is actually a "E1b" and also Y31991. Probably just an error in the S1 Table, that would be my guess. The other yDNA E individuals on the same table, who are not from the Swat Valley, are not E-Y31991 (for example that in LBA Armenia).

It's quite unfortunate that, eventhough the table has samples from Damgaard's study on Central Asia, they left out the two Central Saka outliers (unlike the other Sakas the outliers have very little "east Asian" ancestry, and present a very western-Steppe profile), one of which is the one you refered to before, DA19. I messaged Narasimhan about the Saka connection and he aknowledged it, but considering it is/was such a rare haplogroup I doubt we'll see it very often in the future, but who knows..I wasn't expecting to ever find my haplogroup and lo and behold there's a whole clan of them in Swat

PS: there's other clades under Y31991 which are not PF4428, those also seem to have Levantine and European connections, again suggesting an old migration from the Middle East to Europe, probably associated with early farming, or perhaps copper working. Naturally this is a bit speculatory, but not non-sensical, I hope.
 
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i am always happy when we found e-m123*
and even more of it in ancient dna (y)

there is also this dude from the paper he could be e-m123* or e-m35* ?
he passed all the filters in the lab they say in the paper

I2085 .. E1b1b1 Gonur1_BA 2011-1886 calBCE (3580±20 BP, PSUAMS-2313) Turkmenistan

BMAC culture is also indo-iranian culture
 
That one I don't know as I have no idea how to check for SNPs on the BAM files myself. If I get any info on him I'll report back
 
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This might be interesting for the Italians here:

https://res.mdpi.com/d_attachment/ij...0-05763-v2.pdf

In this Sardinian study 5 men were found to be E-M123* in Sardinia.

Regarding mainland Italy, we have:

- 1 Udine
- 1 Offida
- 2 Volterra
- 1 Apulia
- 1 Grecìa Salentina

All of them are from scientific papers, while I haven't seen any commercial results so far in the Italy's project. Interesting hot-spot turns out to be Italy.

Thanks @KingJohn for sending me these cases.
 
According to Y-Full E-M123 was formed 18800 ybp, TMRCA 17700. If I'm reading it correctly, in other words, in Mesolithic times, even before the Neolithic.

"E-M123Y5780/FGC18285 * CTS1663 * Z1149+20 SNPs formed 18800 ybp, TMRCA 17700 yb"


This might be interesting for the Italians here:

https://res.mdpi.com/d_attachment/ij...0-05763-v2.pdf

It is necessary to underline that this paper has many errors. Some of them are striking. There is no academic sample from Pisa, it is the usual old sample from Volterra composed of 86 individuals analyzed in two different ways, one by Grugni and labeled Volterra and the other one by Di Cristofaro and labeled Pisa because Volterra is in the province of Pisa. In the first Y-DNA is analyzed more deeply and so you have many R1b-U152 , in the second Y-DNA is analyzed much less deeply and so you have many R1b-L23. Quackery at the highest level. Just as Siena is none other than Murlo and Arezzo is none other than the usual sample from Casentino.
 
This might be interesting for the Italians here:
https://res.mdpi.com/d_attachment/ij...0-05763-v2.pdf
In this Sardinian study 5 men were found to be E-M123* in Sardinia.
Regarding mainland Italy, we have:
- 1 Udine
- 1 Offida
- 2 Volterra
- 1 Apulia
- 1 Grecìa Salentina
All of them are from scientific papers, while I haven't seen any commercial results so far in the Italy's project. Interesting hot-spot turns out to be Italy.
Thanks @KingJohn for sending me these cases.

You welcome valerius
The sardinian surnames paper
https://i.imgur.com/go1u5AU.png
is indid cool
:cool-v:

If i will find more cases of e-m123* (tested negetive for m34 marker)
In other dna papers i will let you know:)
Regards
Adam
 
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According to Y-Full E-M123 was formed 18800 ybp, TMRCA 17700. If I'm reading it correctly, in other words, in Mesolithic times, even before the Neolithic.

"E-M123Y5780/FGC18285 * CTS1663 * Z1149+20 SNPs formed 18800 ybp, TMRCA 17700 yb"

The determined age of the surving E-m123* sub-branches is between 8300 BC to 4700 BC:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y31991/

This is exactly the Neolithic time-frame.
 
The determined age of the surving E-m123* sub-branches is between 8300 BC to 4700 BC:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y31991/

This is exactly the Neolithic time-frame.


valerius
why can't no one upload
the saka e-m123* from north east kazachstan to yfull
or one of the north pakistan indo-aryans e-m123* samples to yfull ?:unsure:
kind regards
adam
 
@Pax Augusta - actually, as much as wide the time range is, it is very informative because it marks the beginning and the end of the Neolithic period, and that is enough to have a theoretical time frame for when these branches reached Europe from the Middle East. This is how it looks for me. The question here is completely anthropological in a sense, it is not connected to any recent ancestry or historical events.


@King John - I did upload the E-Y31991 Scythian on Yfull 18 months ago and they still claim that there is a large queue of ancient samples that are waiting to be uploaded, however, i believe they are not honest as today they posted an ancient sample from the Viking paper that was recently made public. I guess they group the samples by interest or i have no idea how some samples are jumping over the queue...
Regarding those Udegram samples from Pakistan, I do not have access to them and I heard that in fact they are not 31991 but pre-31991, which would plot outside of e-m123*
 
@Pax Augusta - actually, as much as wide the time range is, it is very informative because it marks the beginning and the end of the Neolithic period, and that is enough to have a theoretical time frame for when these branches reached Europe from the Middle East. This is how it looks for me. The question here is completely anthropological in a sense, it is not connected to any recent ancestry or historical events.


@King John - I did upload the E-Y31991 Scythian on Yfull 18 months ago and they still claim that there is a large queue of ancient samples that are waiting to be uploaded, however, i believe they are not honest as today they posted an ancient sample from the Viking paper that was recently made public. I guess they group the samples by interest or i have no idea how some samples are jumping over the queue...
Regarding those Udegram samples from Pakistan, I do not have access to them and I heard that in fact they are not 31991 but pre-31991, which would plot outside of e-m123*


maybe you need to ask them again .....
although it is possible they have prefernce for some samples over others .....:unsure::rolleyes:
hope they will upload the saka dude that would be cool :cool-v:
about the udegram samples from pakistan it can still help very much for the E-PF1962 tree
 
maybe you need to ask them again .....
although it is possible they have prefernce for some samples over others .....:unsure::rolleyes:
hope they will upload the saka dude that would be cool :cool-v:
about the udegram samples from pakistan it can still help very much for the E-PF1962 tree

I asked them 3 times so far, they give the same answer. Btw, is there an alternative to yfull where that ancient sample can be uploaded?
 
I asked them 3 times so far, they give the same answer. Btw, is there an alternative to yfull where that ancient sample can be uploaded?


i guess sometime you need to be close to the plate :unsure:
my suggestion :
is that you ask pribislav from anthrogenica he is an expert ​
he also anlaysed many of our e1b1b1 ancient samples
and he sure know the answere to this question if there is alternative
:cool-v:
 
I asked them 3 times so far, they give the same answer. Btw, is there an alternative to yfull where that ancient sample can be uploaded?


i read in anthrogenica
that you found 6 e-m123* samples in druze dna project (y)

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Druze?iframe=yresults


i am coping ruderico which is very informative about there specific branch :cool-v:

They all belong to E-Y30965 and the downstream FGC62257 subclade which is the autochthonous Levantine branch. Interestingly the FGC62257 branch has a TMRCA of 850 years in yfull which is just marginally less than the time in which Ad-Darazi lived. I'm just guessing here, but maybe their common ancestor could have been either descended from him, or from one of his associates.


https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC62257/




 
Yes, new results pop-up from time to time which is good. As seen on the tree on Yfull, the European branches departed from the Levant around 6500 years ago which would support the good-old (late) Neolithic theory that we discussed long ago. I believe the crossing point was Anatolia > Balkans. This line managed to reach as far as Portugal in about 1000 years. This line was never a major one, that is the reason why it is not showing up in ancient DNA so far.
 
Yes, new results pop-up from time to time which is good. As seen on the tree on Yfull, the European branches departed from the Levant around 6500 years ago which would support the good-old (late) Neolithic theory that we discussed long ago. I believe the crossing point was Anatolia > Balkans. This line managed to reach as far as Portugal in about 1000 years. This line was never a major one, that is the reason why it is not showing up in ancient DNA so far.

valerius, that is amazing ( such rare branch but found again and again in indo-iranians
remember the swat samples also ):cool-v:
so we have another scytian this time from south kyrgystan
altrevd from anthrogenica looked at the calls of ALN008
he was e-m123 (e-m34 negetive)
he belonged to e-y31991 just like the north east kazakhstan saka /scytian remain

https://i.imgur.com/iwDgzJl.png

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y31991/

source this new paper :

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/7/13/eabe4414
 

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