E-V13 Frequencies and New Data

[Veriu]

R1b-Z2103 appears in ancient Thrace, Macedonia, and ancient Moesia/Dacia (Serbia), and being the original Yamnaya lineage which we know was spread all over the balkans, it should be expected to have descendant branches all over the balkans, so it cannot pre-emptively be claimed as a western balkan lineage.

There is no eastern Balkan R1b-Z2103 after the early Bronze Age. All of them are west Balkan and then Messapic in the IA. All CTS9219 are west Balkan both BA and IA. This is just a fact, which makes other theories more likely or less likely.

It makes it very likely that Z2705 was west Balkan and very unlikely that it was in Thrace or Dacia or wherever no Illyrians lived.

R1b-CTS1450 also does show up in Macedonia far beyond the Glasinac-Mati culture

Far beyond?? Illyrians reached the central parts of North Macedonia in the LBA and the western and northern parts of the country were Illyrian in the IA. The CTS9219 from North Macedonia isn't Thracian or Paeonian and these are his closest BA-IA people:

I kept one sample from 100 AD in the list because it's the closest one. How come that samples from Macedonia aren't his closest ones but ones from Croatia and Montenegro are? This guy was an Illyrian is the straightforward answer.

The Mat/Dibër/Mirditë cluster disqualifies itself for having spoken proto-Albanian on multiple fronts:

1. The latin toponyms around this area show distinctly non-Albanian phonetic forms, meaning the people here were not speaking proto-Albanian
2. The Albanian-Romanian linguistic contact cannot have happened in this region, therefore proto-Vlachs could not have learnt their proto-Albanian loanwords from people belonging to the mat/dibër/mirditë cluster

I had to read the comment a few times because it makes no sense.

Mat is a name of Proto-Albanian origin.
Taulanti is an Illyrian name linked to Proto-Albanian.
Dimale is an Illyrian name linked to Proto-Albanian.

All three are in Albania. They're not in Serbia or Bulgaria.

What is the linguistic evidence for the opposite theory?? Nish is a non-Albanian name and it's the only name which was transmitted via Albanian in all of eastern Serbia. You speak with such certainty about Mirdita being "diasqualified" but both the linguistic and DNA evidence show that eastern Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania are disqualified and not Mirdita or Dibra.

Why do Proto-Vlachs have to live in Albania to have Proto-Albanian loanwords? What is the geographical argument? What are you even arguing about? This is like saying that for Albanians and Montenegrins to have linguistic contacts Montenegrins have to live in all of northern Albania. It's just so absurd as an argument.

If Proto-Albanian extended from Mirdita to Dardania and Vlachs lived east and north of Dardania this is where linguistic exchange took place but it doesn't require anything else about where Albanians lived.

Not only that but Albanian also has multiple other e-v13 branches such as the Berisha-Sopi cluster that he tries to discard as "founders" that together increase the total diversity within this 4800YBP branch, pointing not only to a "proto-Albanian" diversity, but to e pre-proto Albanian diversity.

If Albanians had multiple other branches like this under the R-CTS7556 branch that were parallel to Z2705 this would be used as evidence for a higher diversity, not a lower one as it is bizarrely used for E-V13.

Who is trying to discard Berisha-Sopi as founders? What does "founders" mean? If it means that Berisha-Sopi is a line which isn't older than a period not much earlier than 700-800 years ago in Albanians, then it is true. What else would you like to add about this branch? It doesn't point to Proto-Albanian diversity. Why is it bad to point out that there are other E-V13 branches, which are far older than the Berisha-Sopi one?

The Berish-Sopi line would point to Proto-Albanian diversity if E-FGC33614 had other Albanian branches close to Berisha-Sopi. Are there any?? No, there aren't.

Why would R-CTS7556 be used as evidence for higher diversity? It could only be used in connection to R-Z2705 if they were branches close to R-Z2705, but why are you comparing Z2705 with Berisha-Sopi??

a)R-Z2705 has much older diversity than Berisha-Sopi.
b)R-Z2705 comes R-CTS9219 and various branches have been found in Illyrians in the Balkans, but not in Thracians and they always seem to be genetically similar to Illyrians but not to Thracians.

What is your counter-argument?? Is it that R-Z2705 will be found in a tribe which had R-CTS9219 and E-V13 but not J-L283? Is it that that it'll be found in a tribe which was genetically similar to Thracians? This has never been found, while R-CTS9219 in Illyrians with an accompanying great diversity is a reality.

It is very low, considering that 99% of Albanians under R-CTS7556 belong to the ~1600 year old branch of Z2705.

Meaning: Albanians only have ONE branch with proto-Albanian diversity under R-CTS7556 while in "theone"s words Albanians have SOME branches with proto-Albanian diversity under the tmrca equivalent branch E-V13.

I need to inform you that you're wrong. I follow R-Z2705 in FTDNA where it is PH970 and they moved back its TMRCA to 147 AD. That's high diversity for a Proto-Albanian clade. Is your argument that Z2705 diversity isn't indicative of its location in northern Albania because its diversity in northern Albania started "only" 1850 years ago? You need to realize that this isn't a logical argument.

I have found some other old branches which are small but very diverse:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y19972/ MRCA in Albanians lived in 600 BC
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y209555/ MRCA in Albanians lived in 1300 BC

In contrast the most V13 branches they have IA and BA diversity. Are you really trying to tell me that Berisha-Sopi is comparable to them???

They are BY250 branches which has been found in southern Illyrians of Kamenica. Their diversity is BA and IA in the same range as J-L283 and R-Z29758 branches. The ancestors of R-Z2705, R-Y19972, R-Y209555 lived in Illyrian tribes, they didn't live in Thrace or Dacia and they weren't 75% genetically similar to EEFs.

Going back to the trmca of E-V13 which is 4800YBP, let us now analyse the comment by "theone" above:

"some E-V13 clearly have proto-Albanian diversity others much less so".

This is actually an implicit admission that E-V13 has high diversity.

I understood his comment perfectly well. He said that some branches have higher diversity and are Proto-Albanian and others don't have high diversity and maybe aren't Proto-Albanian. He's just saying what the Arbanology article is saying.

E-BY4465: a Look into a Proto-Albanian lineage

by Murr Dedi

arbanology.substack.com

E-Y142958 is the most common branch of E-BY4465 among Albanians. Similar to its sibling branch which we have discussed above, the MRCA for E-Y142958 lived during late antiquity albeit at a slightly earlier period around c. 270 CE. This earlier TMRCA can be expected of branches with early and high in-group diversity among Albanians as has been mentioned above in the case of R1b-Z2705, but also applies to J2b-Y20899; the most common branch of J2b-L283 among Albanians with a TMRCA dating back to the 1st century CE. Thus implying an early and important presence in Proto-Albanian groups. The most common and widespread branch of E-Y142958 among Albanians (and non-Albanians for that matter) is E-Y97307, a lineage which diverged from its ancestor during the 3rd century and began rapidly expanding between then and the 5th century.

You're the one trying to connect all E-V13 to Albanians, not him and you're wrong. We have no connection to most V13 branches. The V13 branches which are connected to us lived in the same environment as people who were J2b-L283, R1b-Z2705, R1b-Z29758. The only forced arguments I've read in the thread come by you trying to connect all E-V13 to Albanians although most doesn't exist in Albanians while excluding the real lines which are very diverse.

 

[broder]

The real question is on which information that placement of Z2705 by rrenjet is based upon. Do they have actual ancient DNA information or is it just guesswork from their part?
But even if R-Z2705 wouldn't have been in the Carpathian basin, but the Balkans, this still doesn't prove it was Illyrian by the way, since it will depend on the exact context whether it was say Daco-Thracian, Illyrian, Paeonian or belonged to an unknown, by the written records forgotten people.

He is using few STR samples from Hungary, Serbia, Croatia and Italy that none have been confirmed as BY611+. The only currently confirmed BY611+ sample is that German from Poland who is BY611*

We only got a handful of Iron Age samples from near Albania and the percentage + diversity of CTS1450 is staggering between Cinamak, Kamenice and North Macedonia.

 

[Emathia]

A.

R1b-Z2103 appears in ancient Thrace, Macedonia, and ancient Moesia/Dacia (Serbia), and being the original Yamnaya lineage which we know was spread all over the balkans, it should be expected to have descendant branches all over the balkans, so it cannot pre-emptively be claimed as a western balkan lineage.

R1b-Z2013 does not equal Illyrian. Otherwise Armenia = Illyrian.


B.

Concerning Cinamak, R1b-CTS1450 has a TMRCA of 4600YBP. That is almost the same as E-V13's tmrca of 4800YBP, which we know has variants spread among South Thracians as well as Dacians and Moesians. According to the Illyrian camp E-V13 also had Illyrian and Delmato-Pannonian branches, which means with this logic a branch like R1b-CTS450 with a 4600YBP tmrca can also have descendants in Thracians, Dacians, Moesians, Illyrians, Dardanians, Delmato-Pannonians, Paeonians, Macedonians, Greeks, etc. R1b-CTS1450 also does show up in Macedonia far beyond the Glasinac-Mati culture.
View attachment 18033

C.

Given that the absolute majority of Albanian R1b-Z2013 (99%) falls under the single branch of r1b-Z2705, a ~1600 year old branch, determining from which balkan R1b-Z2103 group it descends (is Albanian Z2705 descended from a central paleobalkan group of Z2103s from Serbia that moved south?) won't be settled until we get more and more resolution of its parent clades in ancient sampling, i.e. by finding by611 samples, but for now considering that Rrenjet repeatedly has stated that it migrates to Albania (Gjergj Bojaxhi posits it as late as 10-11th Century even in recent interviews) and that it is not part of the Mat-Dibër-Mirdite cluster, then this tells us 2 things:

1. R1b-Z2705 was not together with J2b before its migration into Albania
2. It seems to have moved to Albania together with E-V13

This already pushes us to favour a more central origin for Z2705's ancestor. R1b-By611 has some slight indications such as this that it was a central balkan lineage. It might very well have been Paeonian or even possibly a Macedonian lineage. It is also possible it was Triballian and Dardanian if it was a central balkan lineage with origins in Vatin. For now the evidence points away from it being a western balkan lineage.


D.

Going back to the trmca of E-V13 which is 4800YBP, let us now analyse the comment by "theone" above:



This is actually an implicit admission that E-V13 has high diversity.

Let's judge Albanian R1b objectively with the same timeframe that Albanian E-V13 is judged. To do that we will need an objectively equivalent branch with respect to TMRCA:

R-CTS7556 has a tmrca of 5100YBP so 300+ years than E-V13 (note that 2 serbs from Vojvodina show up, one of them R-CTS7556* pointing to a high central balkan diversity )

R-CTS7556 YTree

www.yfull.com

The next branch downstream of it is R-FGC29296 with a tmrca of 4600YBP so 200- years than E-V13.

So what is the proto-Albanian diversity of R-CTS7556 if we judge it by the same criteria that "theone" was judging e-V13, a branch with 4800YBP tmrca?

It is very low, considering that 99% of Albanians under R-CTS7556 belong to the ~1600 year old branch of Z2705.

Meaning: Albanians only have ONE branch with proto-Albanian diversity under R-CTS7556 while in "theone"s words Albanians have SOME branches with proto-Albanian diversity under the tmrca equivalent branch E-V13.

SOME is more than ONE.

Not only that but Albanian also has multiple other e-v13 branches such as the Berisha-Sopi cluster that he tries to discard as "founders" that together increase the total diversity within this 4800YBP branch, pointing not only to a "proto-Albanian" diversity, but to e pre-proto Albanian diversity.

If Albanians had multiple other branches like this under the R-CTS7556 branch that were parallel to Z2705 this would be used as evidence for a higher diversity, not a lower one as it is bizarrely used for E-V13.

There is an inversion of logic happening here, suggesting motivated reasoning.

When we take this high diversity of E-V13 among Albanians into account with Rrenjet's two clusters for Albanian paternal ancestry (Dardana/Moesia + Mat/Dibër/Mirditë) then the R1b-Z2705 + E-V13 Dardanian group stands out even more as the more likely of the two to have brough proto-Albanian.


E.

The Mat/Dibër/Mirditë cluster disqualifies itself for having spoken proto-Albanian on multiple fronts:

1. The latin toponyms around this area show distinctly non-Albanian phonetic forms, meaning the people here were not speaking proto-Albanian
2. The Albanian-Romanian linguistic contact cannot have happened in this region, therefore proto-Vlachs could not have learnt their proto-Albanian loanwords from people belonging to the mat/dibër/mirditë cluster

Dear Johan Derite,
Thanks for your reply and information!
However, I still have to point out that any ancient result under R1b-Z2103 or R1b-CTS450 does not exclude the potential ancestors of Z2705. As far as I understood Z2705 is a downstream mutation of both these. Z2705's TMRCA -bottleneck is not as a result of the migration of the small group of population from outside, but rather an evidence of the apocalyptical events, such as a Justinian plague and genocide that happened during the migration period. These people were more exposed, weather it was Dardania or Macedonia Salutaris or Moesia.
Also j2b-L283 is found all over Adriatic coast, far outside the territory of Glasinac-Mati culture, same as the presence of R1b-Z2103 and it's downstream mutation R1b-CTS450 found outside the Glasinac-Mati, in North Macedonia.
For Glasinac Mati-Culture, the only evidence we have is form the eastern edge, Cinamak, with J2b-L283, R1b-CTS540 and R1b-R-PF7563. So even the core of Glasinac-Mati culture could harbor this mix, with a sort of gradient with J2b in the west and overlapping with R1b in the east.

 

[Veriu]

Also j2b-L283 is found all over Adriatic coast, far outside the territory of Glasinac-Mati culture, same as the presence of R1b-Z2103 and it's downstream mutation R1b-CTS450 found outside the Glasinac-Mati, in North Macedonia.
For Glasinac Mati-Culture, the only evidence we have is form the eastern edge, Cinamak, with J2b-L283, R1b-CTS540 and R1b-R-PF7563. So even the core of Glasinac-Mati culture could harbor this mix, with a sort of gradient with J2b in the west and overlapping with R1b in the east.

CTS9219 was coastal too. Illyrian CTS9219 spread as east and as west as Illyrian J2b-L283 did.

Novilara 176 is a sample from the Piceni of Italy who were partly descendants of Cetina culture from Dalmatia. CTS9219 was found together with J2b-L283.

 

[Johane Derite]

Who is trying to discard Berisha-Sopi as founders? What does "founders" mean? If it means that Berisha-Sopi is a line which isn't older than a period not much earlier than 700-800 years ago in Albanians, then it is true. What else would you like to add about this branch? It doesn't point to Proto-Albanian diversity. Why is it bad to point out that there are other E-V13 branches, which are far older than the Berisha-Sopi one?

The Berish-Sopi line would point to Proto-Albanian diversity if E-FGC33614 had other Albanian branches close to Berisha-Sopi. Are there any?? No, there aren't.

Why would R-CTS7556 be used as evidence for higher diversity? It could only be used in connection to R-Z2705 if they were branches close to R-Z2705, but why are you comparing Z2705 with Berisha-Sopi??

a)R-Z2705 has much older diversity than Berisha-Sopi.
b)R-Z2705 comes R-CTS9219 and various branches have been found in Illyrians in the Balkans, but not in Thracians and they always seem to be genetically similar to Illyrians but not to Thracians.

What is your counter-argument?? Is it that R-Z2705 will be found in a tribe which had R-CTS9219 and E-V13 but not J-L283? Is it that that it'll be found in a tribe which was genetically similar to Thracians? This has never been found, while R-CTS9219 in Illyrians with an accompanying great diversity is a reality.

E-V13 branches like Berisha-Sopi, which are founder effects with relatively shallow tmrcas like 850YBP (in contrast to deeper clades like the E-BY4465 you mentioned) are misused in the arguments for "diversity" because they are taken out of their proper context.

We can imagine an equivalent branch like Berisha-Sopi under R-FGC29296 that had a major presence among Albanians but only had a relatively shallow tmrca of 850ybp. And we can then imagine a few more of these "shallow founder effects" parallel to Z2705 but not as deep as it.

I'm sure that if there were as many such "shallow" founder effect branches parallel to R1b-Z2705 among Albanians as there are for E-V13, they would be used as arguments for the diversity of R1b. It would be obvious, as it is for E-V13, but there is a will to not see the evidence.

Alone they cannot be used to argue for a deep diversity, but when they appear alongside deeper branches like the one you mentioned and more, and also when they belong to the haplogroup that has the highest representation among both Gegës and Tosks, as is the case for EV13 then they add to the diversity and cannot be discarded from the analysis as irrelevant founders that appeared ex-nihilo among the Albanian peoples.

Especially given the context that Emathia above there mentioned of plagues, exterminations, etc. Another very important one is the patriarchal transhumance economy that accelerates such founder effects in contrast to more urbanised settlement patterns.

And when this is taken with the rest of the evidence and comports to draw a clear picture, it is a sign that there is a signal there.

 

[Johane Derite]

If Proto-Albanian extended from Mirdita to Dardania and Vlachs lived east and north of Dardania this is where linguistic exchange took place but it doesn't require anything else about where Albanians lived.

We know that proto-Albanian was not spoken around the mat/dibër/mirditë cluster from multiple lines of evidence, so proto-Albanian cannot have extended from Mirdita to Dardania until the migration from Dardania/Moesia came to Mirdita/Albania and proto-Albanians began to spread their linguistic influence among the latinised Illyrians they encountered there.

1. Pre-Roman toponymy in Albanian doesn't follow proto-Albanian phonetic laws

I.e. the form of "Durrës" (instead of Durrëq if it had been directly from Dyrrachium) shows that this toponym proto-Albanians didn't know this before the roman era of the balkans, meaning the proto-Albanians didn't know this,
Shkodër likewise shows that proto-Albanians didn't know this before the roman era of the balkans.

2. Early Post-Roman toponymy in Albanian doesn't follow proto-Albanian phonetic laws

Even the latin toponyms of the region of the mat/dibër/mirditë cluster do not match the phonetics of Latin of proto-Albanian, showing that the Illyrians that were latinised in these regions were speaking a language different to proto-Albanian.

Toponyms such as:

Volpul: a mountain in Berishë [from Latin. Vulpes],
Shkortull: a village in Fand valley [from Latin. Curtus, compare Romanian. Scurtul]
Groftat e Gojanit: Mirditë mountain pass [from Latin. Crupta]

In all these examples a Latin. /u/ yielded an /o/ which is:

Unalbanian phonetic development [compare Albanian. Furkë from latin. Furca, albanian. Luftë from latin. Lucta]

Or toponyms such as Pedhanë from Latin. Pedaneus which lack the typical Albanian fall of the intervocalic sound plosives that we see in the Albanian word Pyll from Latin. Padulem.

What this means is that proto-Albanians learnt the toponym Pedhane long after they learnt the word Pyll.

We have plenty more examples such as Αὐλών which became Vlorë in Albanian, but the ō in proto-Albanian should have become e if the proto-Albanians were already there since the pre-roman era.

This is clear in examples like Pemë (fruit) from Latin. pōma.

This means proto-Albanians learnt the toponym Aulon only after they had already loaned the word Pemë from Romans.

 

[Johane Derite]

I had to read the comment a few times because it makes no sense.

Mat is a name of Proto-Albanian origin.

Mat is recorded for the first time in the 400s AD, which is the post-roman era and therefore not an argument for Illyrian continuity.

Another problem with Mat is that it shows explicitly un-Illyrian phonetic development, meaning, it fits for proto-Albanian but not for Illyrian.

We see this clearly in the Illyrian toponym Maluntum in which the syllabic resonant for *n becomes /un/ in Illyrian as opposed to albanian. /a/

So the cognate of Albanian "mat" would be "munt" in Illyrian language.

Likewise there is also the toponym Matoas for the danube which potentially places proto-Albanian on the Danube.

 

[Johane Derite]

Taulanti is an Illyrian name linked to Proto-Albanian.

Taulanti is the name of an Illyrian tribe in a region where we know there were intrusive channelled ware incursions, so firstly we do not know for sure if this name has a proper Illyrian etymological origin or if it was brought by Thraco-Dacoid channelled ware influences.

Compare the cognate of Albanian. Dallëndyshe that appears in the Daco-Thracian realms:

Romanian. Andilandi ("master bird" in Romanian mythology)
"
The Great Bird is a symbolic or allegorical bird in Romanian mythology . It has royal rank and is assisted by other birds when needed. The Great Bird is an unearthly, supernatural being/entity from the Other Realm . It is described as being of extraordinary beauty, full of light ( the Phoenix Bird ).

R. Vulcănescu says that the Master Bird is part of a group of avimorphic beings, along with Pajură and the Fire Bird . There are also variants in which she bears the name Andilandi , and is presented as an emperor's daughter, transformed into a bird due to a curse.

In Romanian mythological fauna, the Master Bird is considered the queen of birds, the messenger of the fairies . Like any supernatural being endowed with magical powers, it is quite expensive to look at, its unique beauty and the celestial light it spreads delighting the gaze of only the truly privileged. Its song, which only resounds in solitude, is said to rejuvenate any listener. The Master Bird, a bird of justice, possessing inexhaustible magical power, belongs to the Other Realm , living in isolation and only very rarely displaying its splendid multicolored plumage.

Macedo-Aromanian. Landura (swallow)
Bulgarian. Adilenka (mythical story of woman who turns into a swallow)


It is also possible of course that this is an original Illyrian name and not due to channelled ware influence, however, the presence among Romanians, Macedonian Vlachs and Bulgarians suggests this could also be a pan paleobalkan word not specific to Illyrians, and thus not sufficient to claim continuity on, especially in light of all the contrasting non-proto-Albanian evidence within Albania.

 

[Johane Derite]

Dimale is an Illyrian name linked to Proto-Albanian.

Dimale also appears exactly near the zone of a channelled ware intrusion in Albania, so is it again a Daco-Thracian linguistic influence?

Or is it just a pan-paleobalkan phenomena that is not specifically Albanian but appears also among Dacians (Dacia Maluensis) and Lithuanians, Latvians, etc.

Is Dimale a Lithuanian site because they also have a cognate of this word?

 

[Johane Derite]

All three are in Albania. They're not in Serbia or Bulgaria.

What is the linguistic evidence for the opposite theory?? Nish is a non-Albanian name and it's the only name which was transmitted via Albanian in all of eastern Serbia. You speak with such certainty about Mirdita being "diasqualified" but both the linguistic and DNA evidence show that eastern Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania are disqualified and not Mirdita or Dibra.

There are plenty of toponyms and anthropnyms over the years that have been pointed to as having Albanian or Albanoid features.

Some for example:

Dacian. Amalusta [camomile]
Albanian. Ambël [sweet]

Dacian. Drubetis [placename]
Albanian. Dru [wood]

Dacian. Zermisirga [placename]
Albanian. Zjerm [fire]

Dacian. Karpates [Placename of Mountain]
Albanian. Karpë [rocky hill]

Dacian. Mantia [blackberry]
Albanian. Man [blackberry]

Dacian. Polondova, later Pelendova [placename]
Albanian. Pelë [mare] from proto-Albanian *pōl-nā,

Dacian. Patavissa [placename]
Albanian. Vis [locality, place]

Dacian. Maluensis [placename]
Albanian. Mal [mountain]

"Daco-Mysian." Ouendenis/Vindenis [placename in Eastern Dardania]
Albanian. vend [place, location]

Daco-Mysian. Vetespios/Ouetespios [epithet of a god]
Albanian. Vetë [self, person]

Dacian. Diegis [personal name of King]
Albanian. Djeg [burn]

Thracian. Diegulis [personal name of King]
Albanian. Djeg [burn]

Dacian. Burebista [personal name of King]
Albanian. Burrë [man]

Thracian. Mezenai (horseman)
Albanian. Mëz (foal)

Thracian. Dreneos [personal name]
Albanian. Dren [deer]

Dacian. Buri [Tribe name]
Albanian. Burrë [man]

 

[TheOne]

While the majority of Albanian J-L283 might fall under J-PH4679 and also the J-L283 of the Hoti tribe, there are also Albanians under other branches or clades, some of these such as this one below is shared with one Romanian and a Montenegrin from Cetinje.

J-Y191359 YTree

www.yfull.com

One guy from Vlora, Southern Albania is there and one from Diber, North-Eastern Albania. That E-V13 article I posted earlier, a lineage which has proto-Albanian diversity has some Romanians under there too and some South-Slavs.

E-BY4465 YTree

www.yfull.com

Still don't understand your theory of how supposedly proto-Albanians were a 90% E-V13 population with some R-Z2705. Going by the evidence, E-V13 and the ancestor of R-Z2705 were not even part of the same linguistic population during the Iron Age or Bronze Age. Which means they only mixed later after R1b-Z2103, R-PF7563 and J-L283 arrived to the Balkans they eventually got mixed during a certain period with E-V13 and R-L2 tribes. Some haplogroup I clearly has a Paleo-Balkan origin too. The J2a in the south might be Eastern Mediterranean mediated but some might be Paleo-Balkan. In the Late antiquity , linguists put proto-Albanian in the West-Central Balkans, an area spanning from Nish in Serbia to Skopje (Shkupi) in Macedonia and Shkodra and Mati area in North-Central Albania. Proto-Albanians were in contact with a Daco-Thracian population and were influenced by them during Roman era or Late Antiquity and possibly during the Slavic migrations but that does not mean the actual proto-Albanians were a Daco-Thracian population. Linguists seem to hold Albanian as related to Messapic, a group that migrated from the West-Central Balkans to Italy, so far samples from there have yielded J-L283, R-CTS1450 and R-PF7563 and some haplogroup I.

Let's also take into consideration founder effects and bottleneck effects which can change y-dna % over time. Today E-V13 is aroun 20%-30% , very unlikely actual proto-Albanians were 90% E-V13. And the J-L283 might of been lower or higher but I still stand that the proto-Albanians had J-L283 and R1b along with some E-V13 even if it did not originate in Albania. What can be said for sure is that proto-Albanian was in the West-Central Balkan during Roman era:

Proto-Albanian language - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Johane Derite]

Still don't understand your theory of how supposedly proto-Albanians were a 90% E-V13 population with some R-Z2705. Going by the evidence, E-V13 and the ancestor of R-Z2705 were not even part of the same linguistic population during the Iron Age or Bronze Age. Which means they only mixed later after R1b-Z2103, R-PF7563 and J-L283 arrived to the Balkans they eventually got mixed during a certain period with E-V13 and R-L2 tribes.

I have never claimed anywhere ever that proto-Albanians were 90% E-V13. This is a textbook strawman.

J2b-l283s diversity is all good and well but ultimately insofar as it belongs tothe mat/dibër/mirditë cluster according to Rrenjet, it cannot be a candidate for having spoken proto-Albanian but instead a latinised non-Albanian language of Albania.

As for putting R-Z2705 and E-V13 together, this is again taken from Rrenjet, not my invention. I have never claimed beyond this the depth of their relationship as there is not enough data yet, so again please refrain from arguing with imagined phantasms on your end.

 

[Johane Derite]

Linguists seem to hold Albanian as related to Messapic, a group that migrated from the West-Central Balkans to Italy,

The extent of Albanian's relationship to Messapic cannot be deployed only to push for an Illyrian origin for Albanian as it doesn't necessarily say what you think it says.

Albanian has linguistic relationships to other languages and language groups that are also part of the equation in determining the origin of its ancestor.

As one example, Albanian has a special relationship to Baltic that tells as many things about it.

For example, the specialist linguist of Baltic Pietro U. Dinu says this

Although during the time of the first attestations of the Baltic and Albanian languages the Balts and Albanians already lived to the north and south of the Carpathians, there is reason to think that their earlier ancestors somehow controlled and occupied regions located accordingly in the north and south of the mountain chain.

This allows one to propose a more northern placement of the so-called Proto-Albanian complex until its displacement toward the Adriatic

2014

Yes, that's right. Albanian has a relationship with Baltic specifically that necessitates intense contacts in a time after Baltic had already split from a common balto-slavic branch, meaning it cannot be just contacts from when it was in the catacomb culture but postdates the migration from the steppe.

This relationship is evident in uniquely shared lexical isoglosses such as:

Albanian. djathë "cheese",
Old Prussian. dadan "milk"
Old Indic. dádhi- "sour milk"

Alb. lajthí "hazel, hazelnut"
Old Prussian. laxde "hazel"
Lithuanian. lazdà "stick"
Latv. lazda, lagzda, "hazel"

Proto-Albanian. *ligā, Albanian. lig "illness",
Lithuanian. ligà,
Latvian. liga id.

Alb. i ligë, i ligshtë ‘sick, weak’
Lithuanian. ligùistas "sickly";

Proto-Alb. *landā, Albanian. Gegh landë "construction lumber",
Lithuanian. lentà "wooden table".

but in certain cases also deeper grammatical/inflectional isoglosses:

A high productivity of the suffix *-i-ma- (< *-i-mo-) in indicating action both in Albanian ( vrapím "running" < *vrapima-s compared with vrapoj "‘I run") and in Baltic (e.g. Lith. bėgìmas id. compared with begu id.)

Both have loss of the neuter gender.

*pel- ‘gray’ with amplification in -k- to the root in -e- grade ablaut is an exclusive isogloss, cf. Alb. pellg-u ‘puddle’ and Lith. pélkė ‘swamp’, pìlkas ‘gray’; and perhaps as well Alb. buzε ‘point’ < *‘a pointed instrument for cutting’ and Lith. bùdė ‘type of mushroom’, ‘whetstone’; Alb. lak ‘snare, net’, Alb. flak ‘to throw, to hurl’ (< *aua-laka) and Lith. lakà ‘opening (of a beehive)’ from lekti ‘to fly’.

formation of the preterite with lengthening of the stem vowel corresponding to the present tense in *-io-, cf. Lith. keliù ~ keliau ‘I lift ~I lifted’ (*e/*ē) and Alb. sjell ~ solla ‘I carry ~ I carried’ (*e/*o <*ē); in the 1st pers. sing. of the preterite, cf. Lith. kepù ~ kepiaũ ‘I cook ~ I cooked’ and Alb. pjek ~ poqa (-a < *-au) id. one observes the same ending and the same palatalization; moreover, a participle in -mo-, well known in Baltic, can be reconstructed for Albanian as well, deriving from substantive forms, cf. Gegh shkuemε ‘past’ compared with shkoj ‘to go’, etc.;312 the Alb. prefix qe-, dialectal kle-, used in the suppletive aorist from the verb to be (cf. qeshε, dialectal kleshε ‘I was’, close to Latv. kļūt ‘to become’).

Then there are the deeper shared relations such as:

13.4.1.1 ‑teen Numerals

Albanian forms the teen numerals eleven to nineteen using a pattern of DIGIT-on-TEN, e.g. njëmbëdhjetë ‘eleven’ (cf. një ‘one’, mbi ‘on’, dhjetë ‘ten’), that seems to parallel Slavic (e.g. Ru. odínnadcat’ ‘eleven’ (cf. odín ‘one’, na ‘on’, désjat’ ‘ten’)) and part of Baltic, specifically Latvian (e.g. vienpadsmit ‘eleven’; Lithuanian aligns with Germanic here, using a formative based on *lei̯kʷ- ‘leave’, not a form of ‘ten’). However, there is one key difference between the Albanian and the Slavic/Latvian patterns. Albanian, along with Romanian, has a feminine form of ‘ten’, shown by the use of the feminine tri ‘three’ with dhjetë ten’ in the formation of ‘thirty’, tridhjetë, whereas Slavic has a masculine form, as in the Russian use of masculine dva ‘two’ in the formation of ‘twenty’, dvádcat’ (literally “two tens”); Romanian for ‘twenty’ is douăzeci ‘twenty’ (literally “two tens”), with feminine două, thus with feminine ‘ten’.

Following Reference Hamp and GvozdanovićHamp (1992), these facts can be interpreted for the Balkans as follows. The variety of IE destined to become Albanian (Hamp’s “Albanoid”) was a Northern IE language, grouped with or in contact with Germanic and Balto-Slavic. Within Baltic, Lithuanian absorbed the teen-numeral pattern of Germanic, whereas Latvian interacted with Slavic and Albanoid, an inner-Baltic difference that makes sense geographically. Albanoid, along with Latvian and Proto-Slavic, developed the DIGIT-on-TEN pattern, presumably an innovation in one language that spread by contact into the others, but its speakers changed this pattern as they moved south into the Balkans and came into contact with the variety of Latin that some of its speakers shifted to, yielding Romanian

So what does this mean if we all put it together?
How should we interpret this Albanian-Baltic symbiosis in a holistic scenario gathered with all the other facts?

Let's map it out step by step

1. Albanian has the deepest linguistic relations/contacts with Greek/Armenian, so this is most probably contacts with the Catacomb culture. Therefore, roughly in the EBA->MBA period the ancestor of Albanian must have been in contacts with the Catacomb culture.

2. The ancestor of Albanian after this period falls into intimate contacts with the early ancestors of the Balto-Slavic group, and at some points it seems Baltic particularly. This necessarily should be sometime around the MBA-LBA and necessitates Early-Proto-Albanian to have been somewhere around the Carpathians around this time for such contacts to have been possible. Either it must have moved there at this time or already been there earlier.

3. We know that due to the few ancient greek loans in Albanian, that proto-Albanian must have been in the balkans by the 8th century BC. What this means is that in between the MBA-LBA and the 8th Century BC the Early Proto-Albanians must have migrated south. However, due to the character of the ancient greek loans, they cannot have migrated too far south, as the number of ancient greek loans is few, and the semantic field that is covered by them is almost entirely items that would be bought in markets, i.e. vegetables, tools, [drapën, lakën, etc]. Hence this leaves the adriatic coast out of the question as there were greek colonies posted there, likewise it cannot be too south close to the greeks themselves. Some of the ancient greek loans show the type of greek that would be spoken by macedonians, so this region must be a region that had viable contacts with Macedonians. This points to Dardania roughly as the best bet. Therefore sometime in the LBA-EIA the Early Proto-Albanians must have migrated to the Dardanian regions.

4. After the roman invasion of the balkans, 167BC, Albanian underwent yet another intense symbiosis, this time with Latin. However, this type of Latin that Albanian cohabitated with was of the Eastern Balkan variety, not the kind spoken in Albania/Illyria, where latin toponyms show such a form. What this means is that Proto-Albanian underwent its core latin symbiosis with the Proto-Vlach/Proto-Romanian people somewhere outside of Illyria/Albania.

5. Sometime around the time of 4th-5th Century AD, the early proto-albanians are beginning to get christianised with a considerable native albanian vocabulary, particulary of core concepts like God himself, meaning the initial christianisation of proto-Albanians happened by a teacher or teachers that was translating at the least partially the bible into Proto-Albanian. Later on during the 6th-8th century AD the proto-Albanians seem to have had explicitly Latin teachers. What this suggests is an initial Christianisation of the proto-Albanians in Moesia, probably by the mission of Nicetas, that later on developed in Albania after their migration west under the supervision and influence of the Roman church.

6. The toponymy in Albania shows a north to south gradation in how old it is in the Albanian lexicon, with northern toponyms showing slightly older forms than southern ones. I.e. shkodra is directly loaned from illyrian. scodra, whereas Durrës requires latin mediation into proto-Albanian. This points to a north to south migration into Albania, probably in waves. The core settlement region of the larger body of the proto-albanians is the Albanopolis/Arbanon region. Evidenced by the fact this became the ethnonym of the Albanians and that there are many toponyms ending in -esh between the shkumbin and mat rivers that show an albanian evolution of a previously latin -ensis suffix. Meaning a proto-albanian people supplanted these settlements. What this north south migration pattern into albania means is also that many proto-albanian tribes might not have moved as south as the central Arbanon region initially. And so many branches might not have been part of the later Arbër proper expansion that radiated from Arbanon. Nonetheless they would have been speaking the same language.

7. After this the proto-albanians slowly shift to early Albanian expanding more and more within Albania, with Matzinger dating the split of Gegë and Tosk around 800-1000AD.



What this means is that Albanian cannot descend from Illyrian as the J2b Illyrian languages were on the Illyrian coast since the EBA-MBA, whereas early proto-Albanian was still around the southern carpathians back then.

 

[TheOne]

Can you explain if Cinamak, Kukes municipality was under the Glasinac-Mati culture during iron age? If yes, than we have a clear evidence of the presence of the R1b Z2103,..../J2b-L283 and R-PF7563 in ancient samples during iron age in Cinamak, and respectively Glasinac-Mati culture. S far only E-v13 is missing.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4247

Even the Dardani more inland clearly had an Illyrian contribution to them, as did more likely the Moesia area and possibly even the Triballi, a Thracian tribe, that were influenced by their Illyrian neighbours. Thracian names appear in Eastern Dardania, the area between Naissus (Nish) and Scupi (Shkup) during Roman era.

Dardani - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Glasinac-Mati was not the only Illyrian culture. E-V13 today is around 20%-30% in Albanians with some medieval founder effects. Proto-Albanians could of never been a 90% E-V13 population.

 

[Johane Derite]

Even the Dardani more inland clearly had an Illyrian contribution to them, as did more likely the Moesia area and possibly even the Triballi, a Thracian tribe, that were influenced by their Illyrian neighbours. Thracian names appear in Eastern Dardania, the area between Naissus (Nish) and Scupi (Shkup) during Roman era.

The Channelled ware and Low tumuli dented ware cultures appear in Dardania in the iron age, and they are most definitely not Illyrian in origin. Channelled ware penetrates all the way into Albania.

Then Brnjica culture which also is within Dardania that is a non-Illyrian culture, most probably Paeonian.

3/4 of the major pre-roman archaeological cultures that fall within the region of Dardania are non-Illyrian.

The Glasinac-Mati variant within Dardania, the drin complex, only reaches the west portion of Dardania likewise, and doesn't explain its eastern spread. Likewise it doesn't explain why the Dard- name appears far and beyond the reach of Glasinac-Mati, all the way in Troy for example, whereas Channelled Ware neatly explains it.

The arrival of Channelled Ware in Dardania and Albania also fits timewise with the timeline suggested by Albanian's linguistic relationships that i mapped out earlier.

"Finally, Dardania may be understood as ambiguous in terms of its diverse onomastic material:

The south-western parts are predominantly Illyrian, while the eastern parts are predominantly Thracian.

Dana, however, writes that “le caractère illyrien de l’onomastique dardanienne est indubitable et il convient d’écarter de manière définitive l’idée d’une origine ou d’une participation thrace (du moins considérable) à leur ethnogènese” (p. LXXXII).

To be sure, the Illyrian element in Dardania is not negligible, but Thracian input should not be downplayed.

Indeed, some literary sources consider the population of the future Dardanian kingdom to be Illyrian, but the name Dardania appears only towards the end of the 3rd century BCE, at which point the Dardanian population could have been mixed.

Moreover, there are good reasons to believe that the name Dardania and related onomastic items are of (Daco-)Thracian origin.

Some anthroponyms in Dard-/Derd- are assigned to the Dacian anthroponymic region, such as Δαρδιολα and Derdipilus, while Dardisanus and its graphical variants surface in a Thracian context.

The toponym Δαρδάπαρα, with a typical Thracian second element -παρα ‘river (?)’ is attested in Dardania.

It has also been suggested that the names in Derz-, attested primarily in Thrace and Lower Moesia, such as Derzizenus, Derzitralis, or Derzō , are in fact palatalised variants of Dard-/Derd-.

This is admittedly uncertain, since the names in Derz- may also constitute a separate group, related to the theonyms in Derz- (Δερζις, Δερζελας, etc.), as Dana suggests.

In any case, the onomastic items in Dard-/Derd- are often found in a Thracian context or territories, but never in a clearly Illyrian milieu.

Dardanian onomastics is inherently complex and diverse, and even its Illyrian component “bears witness to a superimposing of ethnic strata as a consequence of successive migrations over many centuries”, as recently concluded by Svetlana Loma."

D. Savić
2022

 

[Veriu]

Alone they cannot be used to argue for a deep diversity, but when they appear alongside deeper branches like the one you mentioned and more, and also when they belong to the haplogroup that has the highest representation among both Gegës and Tosks, as is the case for EV13 then they add to the diversity and cannot be discarded from the analysis as irrelevant founders that appeared ex-nihilo among the Albanian peoples.

If a line is recent, it is just recent and if there are no other close lines in the same ethnolinguistic group, then it doesn't add anything to diversity.

Haplogroup frequency means nothing at all in most cases, although E-V13 isn't even as high as it's made to be (1/4ish to 1/3ish). Non-Turkic input in Turks and Slavic input in Romanians are higher than E-V13 in Albanians, but I wouldn't claim that because Slavic input has the "highest representation" in Romanians, it's the Slavs who first spoke east Balkan Romance or that it's Anatolian and Persian J2a lineages which spread Turkic languages.

Amazingly even though 85-90% of Turkic lineages are non-Turkic it's the few Turkic ones which represent the highest diversity, like PH4679s and Z29758s in Albanians.

Especially given the context that Emathia above there mentioned of plagues, exterminations, etc. Another very important one is the patriarchal transhumance economy that accelerates such founder effects in contrast to more urbanised settlement patterns.

Transhumance economy of Albanians is not the same as nomadic pastoralism of Vlachs. Moving flocks from one steady site to another from summer to winter requires stability and regional control.

The context of Mat or Dibra is the same as the context of everywhere else in the Balkans, but if you're talking the ancient Roman world, late Roman Serbia was far more unstable and prone to conquest, raids, plagues, destruction than the southwest Balkans.

1. Pre-Roman toponymy in Albanian doesn't follow proto-Albanian phonetic laws

I.e. the form of "Durrës" (instead of Durrëq if it had been directly from Dyrrachium) shows that this toponym proto-Albanians didn't know this before the roman era of the balkans, meaning the proto-Albanians didn't know this,
Shkodër likewise shows that proto-Albanians didn't know this before the roman era of the balkans.

Not a good argument, because the toponym evolved under late Latin influence, therefore -ës reflects it. Viminacium or any other similar toponym ending in -ac(h)ium in the late Roman Balkans would have the ending -ës or -as in Albanian.

Durrëq could be plausible only if the toponym evolved under Greek influence which it didn't or if Latin influence stopped completely in 200 AD and it didn't stop.

2. Early Post-Roman toponymy in Albanian doesn't follow proto-Albanian phonetic laws

Even the latin toponyms of the region of the mat/dibër/mirditë cluster do not match the phonetics of Latin of proto-Albanian, showing that the Illyrians that were latinised in these regions were speaking a language different to proto-Albanian.

Toponyms such as:

Volpul: a mountain in Berishë [from Latin. Vulpes],
Shkortull: a village in Fand valley [from Latin. Curtus, compare Romanian. Scurtul]
Groftat e Gojanit: Mirditë mountain pass [from Latin. Crupta]

I know exactly which book you took this from (Les mots Latins de l'Albanais), but why aren't you posting the whole section?

The writer says that these toponyms are exceptions because most Latin-based toponyms follow Albanian phonology properly, so you're presenting here what he considers to be exceptions as the norm!

LES MOTS LATINS DE L'ALBANAIS - Guillaume Bonnet

You can't draw conclusions based on exceptions but based on the norm and the exceptions in this case are likely just dialectal feature.

Or toponyms such as Pedhanë from Latin. Pedaneus which lack the typical Albanian fall of the intervocalic sound plosives that we see in the Albanian word Pyll from Latin. Padulem.

Pedaneus is not supported, it's obsolete. There's an extensive article by linguist B. Demiraj of the University of Muenchen and he derives B(ë)dhanë directly from a local toponym recorded as "Bassania" in northern Albania. It doesn't come from an unrecorded, hypothetical Latin *Pedaneus.

This means proto-Albanians learnt the toponym Aulon only after they had already loaned the word Pemë from Romans.

Not quite though, because there is an obvious explanation which doesn't need artificial periods: Aulon>Vlona evolved as a toponym under Byzantine Greek influence because it acquired some significance as a port during the Byzantine period. What makes us think that a Greek toponym within the Byzantine Empire didn't evolve under Greek linguistic in Albanian?

Geographically, I don't see what your argument seems to be. Aulon, the toponym of a port which acquired importance in the Byzantine Empire, doesn't need to evolve solely via Albanian to explain Proto-Albanians in Albania.

Taulanti is the name of an Illyrian tribe in a region where we know there were intrusive channelled ware incursions, so firstly we do not know for sure if this name has a proper Illyrian etymological origin or if it was brought by Thraco-Dacoid channelled ware influences.

The Taulanti were Illyrians, there's no source which considers them non-Illyrians. "Channeled Ware incursions" is unsupportable, there's no study which supports such settlements and you shouldn't post as a counter-reply some source about pottery of different groups traveling to wide areas. People traded pots and there's Glasinac-Mati pottery all over the Balkans, but this isn't evidence that Illyrians lived everywhere in the Balkans.

I was researching the claim you posted about a supposed "Andilandi" and I found this analysis which covers all topics which I was about to cover :

Your claim isn't mainstream, plausible or relevant in reputable studies.

To be continued about Dardania, Dacians.

 

[Johane Derite]

I know exactly which book you took this from (Les mots Latins de l'Albanais), but why aren't you posting the whole section?

What are you talking about, I have never seen that article or book.

I got it from "byzantins, slaves et autochtones"

Was this supposed to be your "gotcha" clapback moment..

 

[Johane Derite]

"Channeled Ware incursions" is unsupportable, there's no study which supports such settlements and you shouldn't post as a counter-reply some source about pottery of different groups traveling to wide areas.

>there's no study which supports such settlements
>you shouldn't post as a counter-reply some source

"There's no study which supports your position but if there is you shouldn't post it because it will prove me wrong"

What a ridiculous and desperate thing to think, let alone write out.

Sorry but it is too bad, that channelled ware does appear in Albanian precisely in the regions where the most Albanoid like toponyms or influences appear also, and this is no coincidence.

 

[Johane Derite]

View attachment 18072

You can't draw conclusions based on exceptions but based on the norm and the exceptions in this case are likely just dialectal feature.

Norbert Jokl is correct, these toponyms represent a western Dalmatian latin variety spoken in Prevalitana, that does not match Proto-Albanian.

Cabej's attempt is a textbook example of motivated reasoning.

Apparently this is a "dialectal feature of northeastern gheg" that for some reason only seems to focus on Latin toponyms and not in Northeastern Gheg territories but in Mirdita. Ridiculous.

This is an established fact among linguists and historians. It is time to drop the communist revisionism.

Late Latin developed in two different forms in the Balkans: a coastal variety, which survived as a distinct language (known as Dalmatian) until the end of the nineteenth century, and the form spoken in the interior, which turned into Romanian and Vlach.

From place-names it is clear that the coastal form, spoken also in Shkodra and Durres, penetrated some way into the northern Albanian mountains.

Noel Malcolm

 

[Johane Derite]

Pedaneus is not supported, it's obsolete. There's an extensive article by linguist B. Demiraj of the University of Muenchen and he derives B(ë)dhanë directly from a local toponym recorded as "Bassania" in northern Albania. It doesn't come from an unrecorded, hypothetical Latin *Pedaneus.

View attachment 18073

Bardhyl Demiraj is 100% wrong about Bassania being the origin of Pëdhanë. There is no case and its an embarrassment from him that he argued this.