E-V13 Frequencies and New Data

[Riverman]

Also, not entirely sure about this one, but there may be leaks about E-V13 presence earlier than LBA in Bulgaria, Ezero Culture is a likely candidate(not sure about this one), they are in pipeline in Reich.

At this point and in this context what matters most is which branches and cultures they belong to. Because even if I'm right about the Carpatho-Danubian cremation block, these were nearby people which could have interacted with groups in Bulgaria not just once, but multiple times. Yet crucial for the debate about modern E-V13 are not first encounters, but where the bulk of E-V13 lived, survived and multiplied before the LBA expansion.

The most likely candidates to harbour very early E-V13 are Cotofeni and Northern Vucedol groups. Talkiong about Cotofeni, this is how Cotofeni-related/Cotofeni-Kostolac sites spread out in the Carpatho-Balkan sphere:

 

[TheOne]

I got told that Daco-Moesian is primary candidate of Proto-Albanian ancestry with Illyrian substrate after they migrated in Albania.

The satem-like affinities of Albanian and E-V13 presence ties all together.

Illyrians were not only present in Albania though. Dardania & Moesia for example was a Daco-Thracian-Illyrian contact zone at one point. While I agree Albanian also Thracian/Dacian influence (which I believe occurred in the West-Central Balkans possibly from Daco-Thracian expansion from the Central Balkan area or East-Central Balkan) there is also the Albanian-Messapic relation and lineages such as J-PH4679 and R-Z2705 which also have proto-Albanian diversity.

 

[Hawk]

Illyrians were not only present in Albania though. Dardania & Moesia for example was a Daco-Thracian-Illyrian contact zone at one point. While I agree Albanian also Thracian/Dacian influence (which I believe occurred in the West-Central Balkans possibly from Daco-Thracian expansion from the Central Balkan area or East-Central Balkan) there is also the Albanian-Messapic relation and lineages such as J-PH4679 and R-Z2705 which also have proto-Albanian diversity.

We will see how Messapians end up, perhaps they were identical to Daunians and Peucetians but the prominent French archaeologist Jean-Luc Lamboley in his work Recherches sur les Messapiens: IVe-IIe siècle avant J.-C. (1996) he notes a key difference between Messapians and Iapygians/Peuceti in terms of burials.

Quote: “Les Messapiens se distinguent des autres groupes iapyges, notamment des Dauniens et des Peucètes, par leurs pratiques funéraires—tombes en fosse et crémations contre tumuli—suggérant une influence orientale qui pourrait refléter une origine ou un parcours migratoire différent.”

Translation: “The Messapians distinguish themselves from the other Iapygian groups, notably the Daunians and Peucetians, by their funerary practices—pit graves and cremations versus tumuli—suggesting an eastern influence that could reflect a different origin or migratory path.”

This is also noted by Italian archaeologists, but the difference is noted on burial, there was Satemization going on with Messapian something which lacks among Illyrian toponyms/hydronyms and names we have. For instance personal Messapian name Dazdrava has Satemization going on.

 

[Johane Derite]

there is also the Albanian-Messapic relation and lineages such as J-PH4679 and R-Z2705 which also have proto-Albanian diversity.

R1b-Z2705 was most probably not an Glasinac-Mati lineage (and therefore not Illyrian) going by what we know so far though.

So R1b-Z2705 is an argument against Illyrian origin for the Albanian language.

Rrenjet themselves have written about this:

R-CTS9219 – Rrënjët

rrenjet.com

R-BY611​

Të gjitha rezultatet shqiptare nën R-BY611 i takojnë nëndegës ~1500 vjeçare R-BY611>Y23373>Z2705. Degëzimet e tjera kanë rezultate nga Italia, Spanja, Amerika, Gjermania/Polonia dhe Hungaria. Përveç këtyre, ka edhe rezultate që nëse përmirësojnë rezolucionin e testimit, mund të formojnë nëndegë të reja nën BY611. Këto vijnë nga Italia veri-lindore, Kroacia dhe Vojvodina. Shpërndarja dhe larmia e gjithë këtyre rezultateve sugjeron një përhapje nga pellgu Panonik mes Alpeve të Europës dhe Karpateve, me gjasë nga pjesa perëndimore e kësaj hapësire. Për të përcaktuar më me saktësi kohën e përhapjes, duhet të kemi edhe disa teste me rezolucion të lartë, por periudha më e mundshme mbetet para 2600-3300 vitesh.

R-BY611>Z2705​

Pas mbërritjes në Ballkan R-Y23373/Z2705 kaloi efektin tipik bottleneck, dhe arriti të rifillojë përhapjen e saj vetëm para rreth 1500 vitesh, nga pjesa veriore e trojeve të sotme shqiptare.

ENGLISH TRANSLATION:
R-BY611
"All Albanian results under R-BY611 belong to the approximately 1500-year-old sub-branch R-BY611>Y23373>Z2705. Other branches have results from Italy, Spain, America, Germany/Poland, and Hungary. In addition to these, there are also results that, if they improve the resolution of their testing, could form new sub-branches under BY611. These come from northeastern Italy, Croatia, and Vojvodina. The distribution and diversity of all these results suggest a spread from the Pannonian Basin between the European Alps and the Carpathians, likely from the western part of this area. To determine the time of this spread more precisely, additional high-resolution tests are needed, but the most likely period remains between 2600–3300 years ago."

R-BY611>Z2705
"After arriving in the Balkans, R-Y23373/Z2705 underwent the typical bottleneck effect and managed to resume its expansion only about 1500 years ago, from the northern part of present-day Albanian territories."

So firstly, Albanian diversity under R1b-By611 is low, only a single branch of Z2705, secondly, the ancestor of this Albanian branch, which is important for proto-Albanian, was evidently not in Illyria 2600-3300 years ago, rather somewhere around the "pannonian basin between the european Alps and carpathians".

The Illyrian ethnogenesis (and language therefore) was complete 3000 years ago in the Glasinac-Mati culture, meaning that the ancestor of Z2705 at that time was not a member of the Illyrians and speaking another language somewhere between the european alps and the carpathians.

 

[TheOne]

R1b-Z2705 was most probably not an Glasinac-Mati lineage (and therefore not Illyrian) going by what we know so far though.

So R1b-Z2705 is an argument against Illyrian origin for the Albanian language.

Rrenjet themselves have written about this:

R-CTS9219 – Rrënjët

rrenjet.com

So firstly, Albanian diversity under R1b-By611 is low, only a single branch of Z2705, secondly, the ancestor of this Albanian branch, which is important for proto-Albanian, was evidently not in Illyria 2600-3300 years ago, rather somewhere around the "pannonian basin between the european Alps and carpathians".

The Illyrian ethnogenesis (and language therefore) was complete 3000 years ago in the Glasinac-Mati culture, meaning that the ancestor of Z2705 at that time was not a member of the Illyrians and speaking another language somewhere between the european alps and the carpathians.

Not sure how exactly R-Z2705 is supposed to be an argument against an Illyrian origin. R-Z2705 is under BY611/R-CTS1450 which has been found in the Western-Central Balkans BA/IA samples with Illyrian profiles but completely absent in Thrace in Iron Age Bulgaria or among any Daco-Thracian population, the R-Z2705 and other R-Z2103 lineage further strengthen the Messapic connection. The Vucedol sample from Bronze Age Croatia is under R-Z2103/BY611 too with a profile similar to modern Tuscans/Northern Italians. Given that this lineage was also found among Messapic or Iapygians. as said it further strengthens the connection between Albanian and Messapic, not just linguistically but also genetically. J-PH4679 is another lineage with proto-Albanian diversity and Messapic had J-L283 too going by the evidence and R-PF7563 which is another lineage with proto-Albanian diversity. . The data does not show at all what you claim that proto-Albanians were 90% E-V13 and a Daco-Thracian population which is not what the data supports at all nor do linguists consider Albanian to be a solely Daco-Thracian language. For example Matzinger rejects the idea and considers it related to Messapic.

As for Rrenjet, they are talking about the spread of this lineage BY611 during the Iron Age / Bronze Age ca 2600–3300 years ago which they claimed occurred in the Western-Central Balkans which is what it even says in your post, they don't claim the lineage is non-Illyrian. The genetic evidence supports this lineage is Illyrian or was part of Bronze Age - Iron Age West-Central Balkan populations which is also supported by Rrenjet.

 

[Johane Derite]

As for Rrenjet, they are talking about the spread of this lineage BY611 during the Iron Age / Bronze Age ca 2600–3300 years ago which they claimed occurred in the Western-Central Balkans which is what it even says in your post, they don't claim the lineage is non-Illyrian. The genetic evidence supports this lineage is Illyrian or was part of Bronze Age - Iron Age West-Central Balkan populations which is also supported by Rrenjet.

1. "a spread from the Pannonian Basin between the European Alps and the Carpathians"

This area is not the "western-central balkans". This region is also not within the territories of the Glasinac-Mati culture that was the Illyrian culture.
This means that the ancestor of the Albanians who are under Z2705 at the time of the Glasinac-Mati culture was not in Illyria

 

[Riverman]

The real question is on which information that placement of Z2705 by rrenjet is based upon. Do they have actual ancient DNA information or is it just guesswork from their part?
But even if R-Z2705 wouldn't have been in the Carpathian basin, but the Balkans, this still doesn't prove it was Illyrian by the way, since it will depend on the exact context whether it was say Daco-Thracian, Illyrian, Paeonian or belonged to an unknown, by the written records forgotten people.

 

[Johane Derite]

The real question is on which information that placement of Z2705 by rrenjet is based upon. Do they have actual ancient DNA information or is it just guesswork from their part?
But even if R-Z2705 wouldn't have been in the Carpathian basin, but the Balkans, this still doesn't prove it was Illyrian by the way, since it will depend on the exact context whether it was say Daco-Thracian, Illyrian, Paeonian or belonged to an unknown, by the written records forgotten people.

Another problem is the way they are pre-emptively framing Albanian Z2705 and Ev13 branches showing up outside of Illyria as only being possible by vlach mediation, like in that arbanology article that theone shared above.

E-BY4465: a Look into a Proto-Albanian lineage

by Murr Dedi

arbanology.substack.com

"Take for example R1b-Z2705>BY199059, a branch that today is found almost exclusively among Serbs but also includes a Rusyn sample from Maramureș, Romania. Like E-BY4455, the common ancestor of this branch lived during the 9th century and was most likely descended from Proto-Albanians that had shifted to Latin speech integrated into early Vlach populations, evidenced by the fact that Albanians form the most dominant and diverse population on each parallel and upstream branch."

This is tendentious. It is possible and probable that certain proto-albanian lineages entered vlach populations, but how they did so is the crux of the matter. I.e. were they proto-albanians that moved north or local proto-albanians of serbia that were romanised and didnt migrate to albania with the other proto-albanians, etc.

Its long been known that serbs have a decent amount of ev13 and r1b-z2705 in contrast to their low j2b

 

[Riverman]

J-L283 is basically mostly concentrated in Albanians, whereas the same can't be said for E-V13 at all. This makes clear that Illyrian branches survived the best in Albanians, but it doesn't answer the linguistic question directly, because while J-L283 is relatively most common in Albanians, it is in absolute terms still a minority. To put things into context, E-V13 is significantly more common in various Romanian and Bulgarian districts and even some areas of Germany are not far lower than the frequency of J-L283 in Albanians.
This is therefore hardly an unambiguous result concerning who brought the language to whome, just based on that fact alone.

 

[Johane Derite]

J-L283 is basically mostly concentrated in Albanians, whereas the same can't be said for E-V13 at all. This makes clear that Illyrian branches survived the best in Albanians, but it doesn't answer the linguistic question directly, because while J-L283 is relatively most common in Albanians, it is in absolute terms still a minority. To put things into context, E-V13 is significantly more common in various Romanian and Bulgarian districts and even some areas of Germany are not far lower than the frequency of J-L283 in Albanians.
This is therefore hardly an unambiguous result concerning who brought the language to whome, just based on that fact alone.

Exactly, if we dig deeper it is more obvious, for example: in tosks its even less, the total perecentage of slavic paternal lineages in tosks is more than twice that of j2b-l283.

That is why it is so important for them to forcefully couple J2b-L283 + R1b-z2705 to pump the absolute numbers up, but unless they are arguing that Albanian j2b-l283 was also in the pannonian basin in between the alps and the carpathian 2600-3300 years ago with R1b-Z2705, then Albanian J2b and R1b-Z2705 were in completely different places to each other in the iron age and so represent two different peoples.

 

[Riverman]

So far there is little evidence as to where one might place R-Z2705 either way. With such a shallow depth, all options are still on the table.

 

[Veriu]

J-L283 is basically mostly concentrated in Albanians, whereas the same can't be said for E-V13 at all. This makes clear that Illyrian branches survived the best in Albanians, but it doesn't answer the linguistic question directly, because while J-L283 is relatively most common in Albanians, it is in absolute terms still a minority. To put things into context, E-V13 is significantly more common in various Romanian and Bulgarian districts and even some areas of Germany are not far lower than the frequency of J-L283 in Albanians.
This is therefore hardly an unambiguous result concerning who brought the language to whome, just based on that fact alone.

Setting aside the unresolved V13 question, confirmed directly inherited Illyrian Y-DNA is more than 1/3 (L283 and west Balkan R1b) in Albanians (in some regions it's more than 50%), which is much higher than direct Y-DNA ancestry of Greeks from ancient Greeks or Hungarians from Magyars. It is similar to direct Y-DNA ancestry of Bulgarians from Slavs or Austrians from Germanic tribes. You wouldn't doubt that Bulgarians are a Slavic ethnic group or that Austrians are part of the Germanic people, would you?

Naturally, ethnic groups develop and incorporate new elements which is a natural and necessary process in history. Groups which don't expand, incorporate new elements and never change are the ones that die out eventually. There's no European ethnic group today which has 100% Y-DNA ancestry from its Iron Age ancestors who spoke an early version of the modern language. Albanians are not different and it doesn't change the fact that all Albanians today have direct (Y-, mt-) or indirect (autosomal) ancestry from an original Albanian-speaking group which was part of the historical Illyrians.

The argument brought about J2b-L283 and west Balkan R1b especially the PF7563 Albanian variant relies more on diversity.

1. "a spread from the Pannonian Basin between the European Alps and the Carpathians"

This area is not the "western-central balkans". This region is also not within the territories of the Glasinac-Mati culture that was the Illyrian culture.
This means that the ancestor of the Albanians who are under Z2705 at the time of the Glasinac-Mati culture was not in Illyria

It was posted in 2021 and they wrote it based on what had been published by then about modern samples. Afterwards Daunian R1b-Z2013 was published, then Cinamak R1b-CTS9219 etc etc etc

Based on today's info it's certain that the ancestor R1b-Z2705 wasn't in the Pannonian Basin or the Carpathians. The post doesn't even say what you attribute to it because you're not posting the whole paragraph:

Degëzimet e tjera kanë rezultate nga Italia, Spanja, Amerika, Gjermania/Polonia dhe Hungaria. Përveç këtyre, ka edhe rezultate që nëse përmirësojnë rezolucionin e testimit, mund të formojnë nëndegë të reja nën BY611. Këto vijnë nga Italia veri-lindore, Kroacia dhe Vojvodina. Shpërndarja dhe larmia e gjithë këtyre rezultateve sugjeron një përhapje nga pellgu Panonik mes Alpeve të Europës dhe Karpateve, me gjasë nga pjesa perëndimore e kësaj hapësire.

Other branches have results from Italy, Spain, America, Germany/Poland and Hungary. In addition to these, there are also results that if they improve the resolution of the testing, could form new sub-branches under BY611. These come from north-eastern Italy, Croatia and Vojvodina. The distribution and diversity of all these results suggest a spread from the Pannonian basin between the European Alps and the Carpathians, probably from the western part of this area.

They didn't mention the ancient expansion of BY611, but to the area of modern BY611 samples and they still wrote that the focus is in western areas.

Their comment about the ancient expansion in 2021 was that:

Nisur nga larmia e linjave paraardhëse në lindje të Alpeve të Europës, dhe nga larmia e vetë R-Z2705 në trevat veriore shqiptare dhe në skajet jug-lindore të Malit të Zi, ka mundësi që gjatë periudhës romake, kjo linjë ka qenë në Iliri, Dardani, ose në pjesën jug-perëndimore të Moezisë.

Given the diversity of the ancestral lineages east of the European Alps, and the diversity of R-Z2705 itself in the northern Albanian territories and the southeastern edges of Montenegro, it is possible that during the Roman period, this lineage was in Illyria, Dardania, or the southwestern part of Moesia.

R1b-Z2705 seems to have been an Illyrian branch and this isn't "forced" as you say because all remaining Balkan Z2103s after the early bronze age are west Balkan R1bs and Albania is the area with the highest R1b-Z2103 and R1b-CTS9219 concentration in the Iron Age.

 

[Johane Derite]

Their comment about the ancient expansion in 2021 was that:

Nisur nga larmia e linjave paraardhëse në lindje të Alpeve të Europës, dhe nga larmia e vetë R-Z2705 në trevat veriore shqiptare dhe në skajet jug-lindore të Malit të Zi, ka mundësi që gjatë periudhës romake, kjo linjë ka qenë në Iliri, Dardani, ose në pjesën jug-perëndimore të Moezisë.

Given the diversity of the ancestral lineages east of the European Alps, and the diversity of R-Z2705 itself in the northern Albanian territories and the southeastern edges of Montenegro, it is possible that during the Roman period, this lineage was in Illyria, Dardania, or the southwestern part of Moesia.

We already know that z2705 must have reached Albania in the roman period so pointing to the roman period is a deflection.

What is relevant is where this was during the Glasinac-Mati period i.e. during the Illyrian ethnogenesis, and for now the evidence of R1b-BY611 seems to point to it being outside of the glasinac-mati area and therefore not part of the illyrian ethnogenesis.

At best for the Illyrian camp for By611 is some distant "Ilyric" branch that was related to the Illyrians of Glasinac-Mati / Illyria like the Germans are to the swedes.

But even if this is the case Z2705 and J2b would have been two different groups speaking different languages.

The very low Albanian diversity within By611 points to it being a founder effect regardless.

 

[Johane Derite]

It was posted in 2021 and they wrote it based on what had been published by then about modern samples.

This is an irrelevant deflection considering Rrenjet is still publicly declaring in 2025 that R1b-Z2705 migrated to Albania in the Roman era.

This necessarily means R1b-Z2705 was not in Albania before the Romans, i.e. it wasn't in Illyria and part of the Illyrian ethnogenesis.

This is Rrenjet's spokesman and administrator Gjergj Bojaxhi in a recent public video appearance from 1month and a half ago, January 25, 2025:

LINK:

From 38:50 to 41:00 Gjergj remarks that Berisha tribe (E-V13) as well as Fatos Nano, Gjergj Fishta, Ramiz Alia (all R1b-Z2705) have ancestors that come from Dardania that migrated to Albania in the Roman era.

So directly he is reiterating his position that he has stated over the years of 99% of Albanians deriving ancestry from 2 different clusters, the largest stream being from the Dardania/Moesia cluster (E-V13 + R1b- Z2705), with a smaller percentage coming from the Mat-Dibër-Mirditë cluster (J2b-L283).

If R1b-By611 was in Glasinac-Mati / Albania before the roman era you woud have branches of it showing up in the Mat-Dibër-Mirditë cluster as well, the fact that it doesn't shows that it wasn't part of the Illyrian ethnogenesis and constitutes a migrant group.

Likewise we know from the latin toponymy around the Mat-Dibër-Mirditë cluster that a non-Albanian language was spoken in these parts, so the Mat-Dibër-Mirditë cluster doesn't fit for being proto-Albanian speaking.

 

[TheOne]

J-L283 is basically mostly concentrated in Albanians, whereas the same can't be said for E-V13 at all. This makes clear that Illyrian branches survived the best in Albanians, but it doesn't answer the linguistic question directly, because while J-L283 is relatively most common in Albanians, it is in absolute terms still a minority. To put things into context, E-V13 is significantly more common in various Romanian and Bulgarian districts and even some areas of Germany are not far lower than the frequency of J-L283 in Albanians.
This is therefore hardly an unambiguous result concerning who brought the language to whome, just based on that fact alone.

J-L283 is not exactly a ''minority'' but one of the most numerous lineages, J-PH4679 has proto-Albanian diversity, it's a founder effect but a founder effect within diverse lineages spread across all Albanian speakers, including Tosks. The main point is this lineage did not expand from one single place unlike the J-L283 among the Hoti tribe which is only concentrated in the north or some E-V13 which are only concentrated in certain parts in the north i.e the Berisha-Sopi cluster. J-PH4679 is no different from R1a or I2a1b in South Slavs, the I2a1b in South Slavs also a founder effect which represents South Slavic speakers. Illyrian lineages survived the best in Albanians because they represent part of the proto-Albanian speakers which is why Messapic is also considered related to Albanians. J-L283 has been found with other lineages such as R-PF7563 and R-Z2103. The Illyrians in Albania and Dardania weren't only J-L283 so the % of J-L283 is not much lower than what would expect based on where Albanian developed in the southern Balkans unless you're arguing proto-Albanian originated in Croatia-Montenegro area I don't see why J-L283 should be that much higher. The Y-DNA % in Tosks are nothing but founder effects, Southern Albania was settled by Slavs and good chunk of Slavic toponyms survive there. In Albania you still have Bulgarian speakers to some extent. But lineages such as J-PH4679 are found from the south to the north. I don't see how Tosks are relevant considering even the south has considerable J-L283 in some regions coupled with R1b and with some E-V13 are one of the few candidates that could possibly represent proto-Albanian and not other lineages and which match the north too.... J2a, I2a etc which are more numerous in the south than in the north. Southern Albania also has some rarer Paleo-Balkan lineages.


As for R-Z2705, I don't see how it did not originate in Albania supposedly disproves an Illyrian origin unless one is arguing Illyrians were a people that only lived in Albania. Illyrians were a people that lived all the way up to Nish and Shkupi. There are not many serious linguists today that argue Albanian is a Daco-Thracian language. Matzinger and most linguists hold it to be related to Messapic and not Daco-Thracian.

 

[TheOne]

Exactly, if we dig deeper it is more obvious, for example: in tosks its even less, the total perecentage of slavic paternal lineages in tosks is more than twice that of j2b-l283.

That is why it is so important for them to forcefully couple J2b-L283 + R1b-z2705 to pump the absolute numbers up, but unless they are arguing that Albanian j2b-l283 was also in the pannonian basin in between the alps and the carpathian 2600-3300 years ago with R1b-Z2705, then Albanian J2b and R1b-Z2705 were in completely different places to each other in the iron age and so represent two different peoples.

In Tosks it is less because it was also invaded and settled by foreigners and there are inflated I2a and J2a and other lineages from foreigners. But the lineages which clearly have proto-Albanian diversity such as J-PH4679 and R-z2705 and R-PF7563 still exist among Tosks. Some I2a in Tosks and other lineages also have possibly a paleo-balkan origin. Interesting you're using Tosks as an example yet cannot explain the inflated J2a and other foreign lineages there which clearly are much much more than in the north so how could supposedly Tosks be relevant ?

As for by611, ancient dna supports it was in the western-central Balkans in BA/IA. We are not enforcing but argue based on what evidence points. Rrenjet supports that Dardania was Illyrian territory and therefor definitely was part of the Glasinac Mati. The enforcing comes rather from you considering E-V13 is nowhere to be found in Bronze Age Balkan groups when R-Z2103 shows up with R-PF7563 and J-L283. If your argument is R-Z2705 originated in Dardania, it does not disprove an Illyrian origin considering they were considered an Illyrian tribe. The E-V13 clearly represents a completely different group of people that was only gradually eventually assimilated into a proto-Albanian population in that case since R-Z2705 and E-V13 most definitely were not part of the same linguistic group in the Bronze Age / Iron Age.

 

[TheOne]

This is an irrelevant deflection considering Rrenjet is still publicly declaring in 2025 that R1b-Z2705 migrated to Albania in the Roman era.

This necessarily means R1b-Z2705 was not in Albania before the Romans, i.e. it wasn't in Illyria and part of the Illyrian ethnogenesis.

This is Rrenjet's spokesman and administrator Gjergj Bojaxhi in a recent public video appearance from 1month and a half ago, January 25, 2025:

LINK:

From 38:50 to 41:00 Gjergj remarks that Berisha tribe (E-V13) as well as Fatos Nano, Gjergj Fishta, Ramiz Alia (all R1b-Z2705) have ancestors that come from Dardania that migrated to Albania in the Roman era.

So directly he is reiterating his position that he has stated over the years of 99% of Albanians deriving ancestry from 2 different clusters, the largest stream being from the Dardania/Moesia cluster (E-V13 + R1b- Z2705), with a smaller percentage coming from the Mat-Dibër-Mirditë cluster (J2b-L283).

If R1b-By611 was in Glasinac-Mati / Albania before the roman era you woud have branches of it showing up in the Mat-Dibër-Mirditë cluster as well, the fact that it doesn't shows that it wasn't part of the Illyrian ethnogenesis and constitutes a migrant group.

Likewise we know from the latin toponymy around the Mat-Dibër-Mirditë cluster that a non-Albanian language was spoken in these parts, so the Mat-Dibër-Mirditë cluster doesn't fit for being proto-Albanian speaking.

The Berisha-Sopi cluster is a founder effect that only started expanding in the medieval period, it does not represent proto-Albanian at all unless its diversity was lost. Even Berisha e Kuqe E-V13 has more likely hood to be proto-Albanian and has expanded with Albanians for longer than Berisha-Sopi which is mostly a lineage concentrated in the north. There is no evidence it originated in Dardania but might of migrated there or migrated through there or started in Eastern Dardania or was present there or in Moesia. The Berisha Sopi and R-Z2705 represent completely different linguistic group of people, R-Z2705 has proto-albanian diversity which the Berisha-Sopi does not have. It's also unlikely all E-V13 represent the same groups , some E-V13 clearly have proto-Albanian diversity others much less so.

We got placenames and inscriptions of Daco-Thracian that shows its an unrelated language to Albanian. If you want to argue Albanian was in contact with Daco-Thracian and was influenced and as a result also absorbed over time E-V13 lineages then be my guest but not much supports the actual proto-Albanians being a Daco-Thracian population unless you're arguing Tosks, Aromanians and Greeks are now a Slavic linguistic group due to higher I2a.

It's also obvious the E-V13 today is a founder effect, proto-Albanians weren't neccessarily anymore E-V13 than today. Aromanians and Romanians have E-V13 too, less than Albos but this mostly due to founder effects. Nowhere does ancient DNA show a 90% E-V13 population during Roman era west-central Balkans unless you're arguing proto-Albanian originated in Viminacium.

 

[Emathia]

This is an irrelevant deflection considering Rrenjet is still publicly declaring in 2025 that R1b-Z2705 migrated to Albania in the Roman era.

This necessarily means R1b-Z2705 was not in Albania before the Romans, i.e. it wasn't in Illyria and part of the Illyrian ethnogenesis.

This is Rrenjet's spokesman and administrator Gjergj Bojaxhi in a recent public video appearance from 1month and a half ago, January 25, 2025:

LINK:

From 38:50 to 41:00 Gjergj remarks that Berisha tribe (E-V13) as well as Fatos Nano, Gjergj Fishta, Ramiz Alia (all R1b-Z2705) have ancestors that come from Dardania that migrated to Albania in the Roman era.

So directly he is reiterating his position that he has stated over the years of 99% of Albanians deriving ancestry from 2 different clusters, the largest stream being from the Dardania/Moesia cluster (E-V13 + R1b- Z2705), with a smaller percentage coming from the Mat-Dibër-Mirditë cluster (J2b-L283).

If R1b-By611 was in Glasinac-Mati / Albania before the roman era you woud have branches of it showing up in the Mat-Dibër-Mirditë cluster as well, the fact that it doesn't shows that it wasn't part of the Illyrian ethnogenesis and constitutes a migrant group.

Likewise we know from the latin toponymy around the Mat-Dibër-Mirditë cluster that a non-Albanian language was spoken in these parts, so the Mat-Dibër-Mirditë cluster doesn't fit for being proto-Albanian speaking.

Can you explain if Cinamak, Kukes municipality was under the Glasinac-Mati culture during iron age? If yes, than we have a clear evidence of the presence of the R1b Z2103,..../J2b-L283 and R-PF7563 in ancient samples during iron age in Cinamak, and respectively Glasinac-Mati culture. S far only E-v13 is missing.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4247

 

[Riverman]

Another take on the North, Central and Southern Thracian branches, based on FTDNA data:

First, you can see at first glance that Bulgaria is the only country of these 5, in which E-Z5018 is not the most numerous branch. The most common branch is the central to central-Northern E-Z5017 branch, which might be best associated with Basarabi, Southern Dacians along the Danube and being very strong in Vlach people, with big founder events especially under E-CTS9320. This is actually one of the instances in which we can see E-V13 founder events in Bulgarians, and its being associated with major Vlach clans.

Secondly, the relative proportion of one of the main South Thracian branches (most of E-BY5022, not necessarily all being South Thraican) is the highest in Bulgarians. Higher than in Greeks, which got a lot of Vlach and Albanian branches of E-V13, but not higher than in Italians! Only Italians and Bulgarians have about 7 and more percent of E-BY5022. If sorting for subclades, with a certain assignment to South Thracians, the difference becomes even more pronounced.

One can also see where the North Thracian branches (much of E-Z5018 being North Thracian) dominate the most: In Russians. E-V13 in Russians being very much dominated by North Thracian branches, whereas e.g. Germany and Greece are in the middle, with Italy and Bulgaria being more Southern oriented.

The total survival of old South Thracian branches, while being among the highest in Bulgarians, is still very, very low. A large fraction of the E-V13 in modern Bulgarians appears to me Vlach-derived.

There is also a direct correlation of Northern geographical regions with less Roman influence and the relative frequency of E-Z5018. Greece and Albania are among the countries which stick out the most in this respect, since they seem to have received a strong batch of E-Z5018 which kind of bypassed the West and East Balkans, and moved through the Central Balkans South into regional Albanian and Vlach communities in particular.

 

[Johane Derite]

Can you explain if Cinamak, Kukes municipality was under the Glasinac-Mati culture during iron age? If yes, than we have a clear evidence of the presence of the R1b Z2103,..../J2b-L283 and R-PF7563 in ancient samples during iron age in Cinamak, and respectively Glasinac-Mati culture. S far only E-v13 is missing.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4247

A.

R1b-Z2103 appears in ancient Thrace, Macedonia, and ancient Moesia/Dacia (Serbia), and being the original Yamnaya lineage which we know was spread all over the balkans, it should be expected to have descendant branches all over the balkans, so it cannot pre-emptively be claimed as a western balkan lineage.

R1b-Z2013 does not equal Illyrian. Otherwise Armenia = Illyrian.


B.

Concerning Cinamak, R1b-CTS1450 has a TMRCA of 4600YBP. That is almost the same as E-V13's tmrca of 4800YBP, which we know has variants spread among South Thracians as well as Dacians and Moesians. According to the Illyrian camp E-V13 also had Illyrian and Delmato-Pannonian branches, which means with this logic a branch like R1b-CTS450 with a 4600YBP tmrca can also have descendants in Thracians, Dacians, Moesians, Illyrians, Dardanians, Delmato-Pannonians, Paeonians, Macedonians, Greeks, etc. R1b-CTS1450 also does show up in Macedonia far beyond the Glasinac-Mati culture.

C.

Given that the absolute majority of Albanian R1b-Z2013 (99%) falls under the single branch of r1b-Z2705, a ~1600 year old branch, determining from which balkan R1b-Z2103 group it descends (is Albanian Z2705 descended from a central paleobalkan group of Z2103s from Serbia that moved south?) won't be settled until we get more and more resolution of its parent clades in ancient sampling, i.e. by finding by611 samples, but for now considering that Rrenjet repeatedly has stated that it migrates to Albania (Gjergj Bojaxhi posits it as late as 10-11th Century even in recent interviews) and that it is not part of the Mat-Dibër-Mirdite cluster, then this tells us 2 things:

1. R1b-Z2705 was not together with J2b before its migration into Albania
2. It seems to have moved to Albania together with E-V13

This already pushes us to favour a more central origin for Z2705's ancestor. R1b-By611 has some slight indications such as this that it was a central balkan lineage. It might very well have been Paeonian or even possibly a Macedonian lineage. It is also possible it was Triballian and Dardanian if it was a central balkan lineage with origins in Vatin. For now the evidence points away from it being a western balkan lineage.


D.

Going back to the trmca of E-V13 which is 4800YBP, let us now analyse the comment by "theone" above:

"some E-V13 clearly have proto-Albanian diversity others much less so".

This is actually an implicit admission that E-V13 has high diversity.

Let's judge Albanian R1b objectively with the same timeframe that Albanian E-V13 is judged. To do that we will need an objectively equivalent branch with respect to TMRCA:

R-CTS7556 has a tmrca of 5100YBP so 300+ years than E-V13 (note that 2 serbs from Vojvodina show up, one of them R-CTS7556* pointing to a high central balkan diversity )

R-CTS7556 YTree

www.yfull.com

The next branch downstream of it is R-FGC29296 with a tmrca of 4600YBP so 200- years than E-V13.

So what is the proto-Albanian diversity of R-CTS7556 if we judge it by the same criteria that "theone" was judging e-V13, a branch with 4800YBP tmrca?

It is very low, considering that 99% of Albanians under R-CTS7556 belong to the ~1600 year old branch of Z2705.

Meaning: Albanians only have ONE branch with proto-Albanian diversity under R-CTS7556 while in "theone"s words Albanians have SOME branches with proto-Albanian diversity under the tmrca equivalent branch E-V13.

SOME is more than ONE.

Not only that but Albanian also has multiple other e-v13 branches such as the Berisha-Sopi cluster that he tries to discard as "founders" that together increase the total diversity within this 4800YBP branch, pointing not only to a "proto-Albanian" diversity, but to e pre-proto Albanian diversity.

If Albanians had multiple other branches like this under the R-CTS7556 branch that were parallel to Z2705 this would be used as evidence for a higher diversity, not a lower one as it is bizarrely used for E-V13.

There is an inversion of logic happening here, suggesting motivated reasoning.

When we take this high diversity of E-V13 among Albanians into account with Rrenjet's two clusters for Albanian paternal ancestry (Dardana/Moesia + Mat/Dibër/Mirditë) then the R1b-Z2705 + E-V13 Dardanian group stands out even more as the more likely of the two to have brough proto-Albanian.


E.

The Mat/Dibër/Mirditë cluster disqualifies itself for having spoken proto-Albanian on multiple fronts:

1. The latin toponyms around this area show distinctly non-Albanian phonetic forms, meaning the people here were not speaking proto-Albanian
2. The Albanian-Romanian linguistic contact cannot have happened in this region, therefore proto-Vlachs could not have learnt their proto-Albanian loanwords from people belonging to the mat/dibër/mirditë cluster