E-V13 men as carriers of "Roman Imperial" Admixture

You have to remember Albanians lived very north possibly. If Naissus -> Nish follows Albanian phonetic rules , a possibility then is a presence even more north. But we will see how the Albanian E-V13 turns out. I am E-Z5018 from my mothers side. and J-L283 from father side. Considering that entire area must of been filled with E-V13 at one point I find it hard to believe that the main Albanian branches came from somewhere else but we will see . Have you looked at some of the E-V13 in Roman Serbia ? I haven't gotten a chance to check them all out.
 
Denxz said:
You have to remember Albanians lived very north possibly. If Naissus -> Nish follows Albanian phonetic rules , a possibility then is a presence even more north. But we will see how the Albanian E-V13 turns out. I am E-Z5018 from my mothers side. and J-L283 from father side. Considering that entire area must of been filled with E-V13 at one point I find it hard to believe that the main Albanian branches came from somewhere else but we will see . Have you looked at some of the E-V13 in Roman Serbia ? I haven't gotten a chance to check them all out.
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I used all samples available on FTDNA.
Naissus and Viminacium are already relatively more Northern and former Basarabi territory. Just one E-Z5018 which looks Scytho-Sarmatian related is not a lot.
There surely will come up more, with more samples.

But an origin of these branches in Pre-Albanians would only make sense if Albanians can be ethnolinguistically derived from Basarabi/Dacians.

But saying so is not more mainstream, to put it that way.
 
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Well, Matzinger put the homeland of Proto-Albanian here . I say that's better than coming from some tribe in Albania. Should find the Albanian E-V13 somewhere there too. Maybe some of the R1b and maybe even some J-L283. I also believe Serbia-Dardania-Macedonia was a proto-Albanian homeland. E-V13 should be there too.

the-original-home-of-proto-albanian-according-to-joachim-v0-vuhcvmbnzwd81.jpg
 
1920px-Balkans_6th_century.svg.png




Some of the Albanian E-V13 you're talking about could of been all the way north
 
Denxz said:
Well, Matzinger put the homeland of Proto-Albanian here . I say that's better than coming from some tribe in Albania. Should find the Albanian E-V13 somewhere there too. Maybe some of the R1b and maybe even some J-L283. I also believe Serbia-Dardania-Macedonia was a proto-Albanian homeland. E-V13 should be there too.

the-original-home-of-proto-albanian-according-to-joachim-v0-vuhcvmbnzwd81.jpg
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That map shows the region AFTER the resettlement of the Daco-Romans and Dacian tribals, just before the collapse of Rome. So yes, in the yellow zone should have been tons of E-V13. I do expect the Dardanians to have SOME E-V13 already before the resettlements, but not as much and not necessarily the main branches of E-Z5018-5017, which I see largely coming with these Daco-Romans and Dacians.

Therefore Matzingers zone of origin would be perfect, even though it surely includes the original source of the Vlachs/Daco-Romans too. So all of the yellow can't have been Albanian speaking, but the Pre-Albanians must have been a minority concentrated in one/specific spots in such a model.
 
Riverman said:
That map shows the region AFTER the resettlement of the Daco-Romans and Dacian tribals, just before the collapse of Rome. So yes, in the yellow zone should have been tons of E-V13. I do expect the Dardanians to have SOME E-V13 already before the resettlements, but not as much and not necessarily the main branches of E-Z5018-5017, which I see largely coming with these Daco-Romans and Dacians.

Therefore Matzingers zone of origin would be perfect, even though it surely includes the original source of the Vlachs/Daco-Romans too. So all of the yellow can't have been Albanian speaking, but the Pre-Albanians must have been a minority concentrated in one/specific spots in such a model.
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It's just hypothetically speaking. We have to consider also what survived maybe of proto-Albanian that did not turn entirely Romanized... ... Matzingers theory as considering Albanians as a part of own group of Paleo-Balkan people is indeed interesting because this is the same approach Eric Hamp used also which he deemed Proto-Albanoid rather than Illyrian or Thracian , he considered Messapic as related to Albanian also. He considered Romanian-Aromanian-Vlach as Romanized Albanian also. The town names come up which might indicate Albanian sound changes Naissus -> Nish, Scupi -> Shup, Astibos -> Shtip . So no, all of the yellow weren't neccessarily Albanian. It's just hypothetically where he thinks Albanian was. There was also a map with these towns above.
 
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E-Z5017 was already found in Timacum Minus. It was the dominant branch of E-V13 there from what I see together with J2b2 and R1b.
I cannot see how it came from somewhere else ?

Also I am not sure that Vlachs are supposed to be Dacians from Romania. Some put them in the same area as Albanians Serbia-Dardania-Macedonia, others in Eastern Serbia - Western Bulgaria , border with Romania, which then they might of spread into Albanians or somewhat overlapped. This territory of Serbia and Dardania already had a Daco-Thracian component .
 
There is no proto Albanian without r-z2103, you find a hotspot of it in iron age and you will find the proto albanians
 
Riverman said:
Here are the numbers:

Samples from Hungary (ca.):
E-Z5018: 19
E-Z5017: 9
Branches common in current Balkan/Thracian samples as shown in the screenshot above: 3

That's a staggering 28 : 3 or simplified about 9 : 1 ratio for Hungary.

For the South Thracians and Medieval Greeks ("East Balkans") combined its 0 : 4
For Viminacium+Naissus (a more mixed bag) it is 1 : 2, with the E-Z5018 sample looking like its coming from a Scytho-Sarmatian branch.
Croatia/West Balkan (Sipar, Sveti Križ, Scitarjevo, Hypo Banka it is 1 : 3

Therefore we have a clear pattern for Central Europe (Hungary, Poland, Czechia) vs. Balkans (Croatia, Serbia, Bulgaria) up to the Roman period.

The only other sample group with a dominance of E-Z5017+5018 are the Himerans with 1:0, and again, their autosomal profile puts them into a more Northern spot and relatively closer to Mezocsat-Gáva. They won't have been from a population all too South of the Danube, in the Central-East Balkans, which fits into the whole pattern.

I made this map for showing where - in moderns, E-Z5018 is dominant:

Thread: E-V13 Frequency Maps and Data

Where you can plz send link thanks This post: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?27193-Paleogenomics-of-Upper-Paleolithic-to-Neolithic-European-hunter-gatherers&p=902236&viewfull=1#post902236
www.eupedia.com

I interpreted it as the Daco-Thracian, especially Dacian core pushing other lineages out and being completely dominated by E-Z5018+Z5017 over time. So earlier tribes and clans moving away from the core were dominated by other branches, the core was dominated by Z5018+Z5017 and kept growing in its initial centre.

The West Balkan being clearly lower in E-Z5018, the East Balkan is indecisive. Most of the high E-Z5018 ratio is in the East.

There is one odd exception around Kosovo-Montenegro-Macedonia. The question is now: Why is that spot different? Either it was the centre of gravity for E-V13 early on, with Z5018+Z5017 growing out of this region (but why the gaps to the North and East?), or a group very heavy in Z5017+Z5018 moved there and replaced other lineages which lived there before.

We have data points from West (Croatia), North (Serbia) and East (Bulgaria-Greece) which point to the Balkans being not the centre of gravity, but we would need more samples from the area in question. However, we got some leaks and it definitely doesn't look like that area was dominated by Z5017+Z5018, especially not in a way that it could have spread from there, to all the other regions in question.

The most parsiminious conclusion is therefore these branches came in fairly late, with a people from the Danubian zone or even North of it. In the Roman era, the incursions and resettlements of Daco-Romans and Dacian tribals, especially into the new province of Dacia and Moesia, should have been instrumental:

Ancient_balkans_4thcentury.png


Ancient DNA will prove or disprove this hypothesis, but I think that we will find a migration from the provinces of Moesia-Dacia to the South in Late Antiquity-migration period. And this will be the main spreading event for many of the main branches downstream of Z5017+Z5018.
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Yes, I agree that either hypothesis could be possible. That same area Moesia and Dardania was also part of the same Roman province. Only Ancient DNA will reveal more. Movements could of occurred from both sides however. Also take into consideration different subclades. I am not familiar with when and how these branche split or their subclades. But I assume there is also diversity . I don't think all clades came from there in Roman period neccessarily nor the other way around.
 
This is from Martin Huld on Albanian, compare it to some of Matzinger , I would of added more Northern areas and an expansion south-wards only later possibly but here it goes:

main-qimg-9a93b5a845e381caf9df900dd9e94927-lq
 
Denxz said:
This is from Martin Huld on Albanian, compare it to some of Matzinger , I would of added more Northern areas and an expansion south-wards only later possibly but here it goes:

main-qimg-9a93b5a845e381caf9df900dd9e94927-lq
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Map doesn't make sense, where are the epirotes
 
This is from the Rrenjet project google translated from Albanian into English:

Like all branches of the E-V13 haplogroup, it is thought that the ancestors of the E-PH2180 line arrived in Europe with the peoples who spread agriculture from the Middle East during the Neolithic, but spread massively in the Balkans during the Bronze and Iron Ages. Despite not being found in ancient bones so far, the distribution and diversity of the E-V13>L241 branch suggests that the initial spread may have started early in the Iron Age in the area of the northern Balkans or central Europe. The finding of E-V13>L241 in Late Antiquity in present-day Czechia supports this possibility, as does an E-V13>L241>BY5617 result from medieval Hungary, and many modern results under E-V13>L241 from Ukraine, Romania , Slovakia, Czech Republic, Poland, Germany, etc. It should be noted that until now, the vast majority of Albanian lines separated from those of Central Europe in about 2500-3000 years, which suggests a spread with the beginnings of the Iron Age. Finally, a family from Algeria that settled there during the Ottoman period was found to be related in about 1700-1800 years to E-PH2180. Most likely, this family has Balkan origins, maybe Albanian.
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E-PH2180 – Rrënjët

rrenjet.com rrenjet.com
 
In conclusion, I don't see how some Late Antiquity samples from Northern Balkans suggests a spread from there in the migration period only considering it's diverisity and seperation from other lines. In fact, E-V13 might of spread from there and into the Central Balkans during the Iron Age.
 
Denxz said:
In conclusion, I don't see how some Late Antiquity samples from Northern Balkans suggests a spread from there in the migration period only considering it's diverisity and seperation from other lines. In fact, E-V13 might of spread from there and into the Central Balkans during the Iron Age.
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Either way E-PH2180 is likely not proto Albanian, not only has it been found in early medieval Hungary, it also has links to Czech republic but most importantly it only exists in Gheg Albanians, probably through a founder effect. Origin of this line in Albanians could be Slavic or could be Dacian remnant that was assimilated by Albanians around 1500
 
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TaktikatEMalet said:
Either way E-PH2180 is likely not proto Albanian, not only has it been found in early medieval Hungary, it also has links to Czech republic but most importantly it only exists in Gheg Albanians, probably through a founder effect. Origin of this line in Albanians could be Slavic or could be Dacian remnant that was assimilated by Albanians 1500-2000 years ago
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I wasn't just thinking of E-PH2180 clade but the branch it belongs to in itself which is one of the major Albanian branches. I just got that from the E-PH2180 page. My point was that these lineage could of come through different waves rather than all at a time, I'm not doubting his theory but rather expanding on it. Very much doubt this lineage is Slavic. I don't see any Slavs under this lineage nor has it been found in medieval Hungary https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-PH2180/ , so your conclusion is completely wrong. The branch it belongs to https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y96696/ has mostly Albanians too . That Algerian is probably Albanian.
 
This branch was found in Hungary https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY5617/ , which is where E-Y96696 falls under and which is then again the branch where E-PH2180 is , but these have different TMRCA and formation which does not suggestion a recent origin in Hungary or anywhere north there, neither for E-PH2180 nor for E-Y96696
 
not to mention the E-BY5617 is a medieval sample from Hungary and not Iron Age and yes, E-PH2180 is mostly GHEG , they are mostly Berisha e Kuqe from Kosovo or other Ghegs
 
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