Thread: E-V13 Frequency Maps and Data

I think there should be a ancient map of E-V13, on google. It probably takes an hour to do, two at most. Will become very handy as more data gets released and one can see it's over all distribution through various ages. I think the best way to categorize is:
Neolithic
Bronze Age
Late Bronze Age
Iron Age
Roman
Post-Roman

Something like this.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewe...&hl=en_US&ll=48.74992772963407,22.6271305&z=5
 
There is one. Don't have the link on my mobile though. There is a thread on AG and it gets regularly updated.
 
I think there should be a ancient map of E-V13, on google. It probably takes an hour to do, two at most. Will become very handy as more data gets released and one can see it's over all distribution through various ages. I think the best way to categorize is:
Neolithic
Bronze Age
Late Bronze Age
Iron Age
Roman
Post-Roman

Something like this.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewe...&hl=en_US&ll=48.74992772963407,22.6271305&z=5

I created one, i will start updating soon and share the link. Any help on finding the sample studies is welcome.

There is one. Don't have the link on my mobile though. There is a thread on AG and it gets regularly updated.

That's DE map, Paleo was saying specifically about E-V13. And i created one, and will update it as soon as i have some time. I'll check the DE map so i can get samples from there.
 
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i mention this paper
because of this
so called pre -slavic e1b1b1 remain from slovenia
mentioned in another thread in our forum

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4331032

some regions of slovenia has 5-7% e-m78
only upper craniola have some e1b1b1(x e-m78) and only 1.8% likely e-m123


Y-chromosome-haplogroup-frequencies-and-haplogroup-diversities-in-five-Slovenian.png



source:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/03014460.2013.813584?journalCode=iahb20
 
That is clearly because of the Slavic founder population, but not only so. Look at the ratio of E-M78 vs. J-M172. Lower Carniola is high E - low J, Styria is balanced, Littoral is high J - low E. That's a clear trend also, probably pointing to ancient relations with the cremating groups with Hallstatt-Thracian connections vs. the inhumation clan tumuli of the Illyrian sphere of influence.
Both E and J are low though, presumably because of the Celtic, Roman Imperial, Germanic and primarily the Slavic settlement in the region.
 
i mention this paper
because of this
so called pre -slavic e1b1b1 remain from slovenia
mentioned in another thread in our forum

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4331032

some regions of slovenia has 5-7% e-m78
only upper craniola have some e1b1b1(x e-m78) and only 1.8% likely e-m123


Y-chromosome-haplogroup-frequencies-and-haplogroup-diversities-in-five-Slovenian.png



source:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/03014460.2013.813584?journalCode=iahb20


I believe mostly likely this remains belong a Haplogroup E-V13 and less likely E-M123 and E-L19 and E-M78(xL618) because study its mentioned a Slovenia
I quote from study
The E1b1b Y haplogroup was predicted for male skeletons. Sublineage E1b1b is the most484 frequent “Neolithic haplogroup” for men in the Balkan region (Primorac et al. 2011). In485 a study performed on the Slovenian population, E1b1b was detected with a frequency of486 7.3% (Zupan et al. 2013). According to recently published results, this haplogroup is487 slightly less frequent in Slovenia than in the closest neighboring population of Bosnia and488 Herzegovina (Babić et al. 2021) and Croatia (Primorac et al. 2011). Outside Europe
 
That is clearly because of the Slavic founder population, but not only so. Look at the ratio of E-M78 vs. J-M172. Lower Carniola is high E - low J, Styria is balanced, Littoral is high J - low E. That's a clear trend also, probably pointing to ancient relations with the cremating groups with Hallstatt-Thracian connections vs. the inhumation clan tumuli of the Illyrian sphere of influence.
Both E and J are low though, presumably because of the Celtic, Roman Imperial, Germanic and primarily the Slavic settlement in the region.

Do you think Haplogroup E-V13 and J-L283 in slovenia origin a people slavic ?
 
Do you think Haplogroup E-V13 and J-L283 in slovenia origin a people slavic ?

I think its rather the preceding people and even more German, but many came with Serbo-Croats and other people too. Especially in Slovenes Slavic E-V13 seems to be not that widespread, but we would need more NGS tested individuals to say something definitive, like with whom do they connect with.
 
I think its rather the preceding people and even more German, but many came with Serbo-Croats and other people too. Especially in Slovenes Slavic E-V13 seems to be not that widespread, but we would need more NGS tested individuals to say something definitive, like with whom do they connect with.


Thanks Riverman
do you have STR remains slovenia ?
 
it's ok
maybe we can know from where is from before the offical paper is published
by looking at his total autosomal picture ( or at least we know how much whg and how much farmer ancestery he had if any)
the problem is the coverage of him is pretty bad
will see


the sample apparently is from spain girona
the paper defined GER002 as C-M130
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-05726-0

this was posted by someone in anthrogenica :
sadly, both samples from the new paper on Paleolithic that earlier were speculated to belong to E are predicted by the authors to be C-M130+. No other E's in the dataset.
Mollet III (Girona) GER003 Spain 27322-27076 Gravettian Ydna: C-M130 Mt-dna: M
Reclau Viver (Girona) GER002 Spain 21900 70 Gravettian Ydna: C-M130 Mt-dna: U8b'c

p.s

i still wouldn't rule out that GER002 was E
this researchers can be wrong
though C-M130 indeed fits the period much better
but pribislav should have a look at GER002 bam file to be sure
 
I believe mostly likely this remains belong a Haplogroup E-V13 and less likely E-M123 and E-L19 and E-M78(xL618) because study its mentioned a Slovenia
I quote from study
The E1b1b Y haplogroup was predicted for male skeletons. Sublineage E1b1b is the most484 frequent “Neolithic haplogroup” for men in the Balkan region (Primorac et al. 2011). In485 a study performed on the Slovenian population, E1b1b was detected with a frequency of486 7.3% (Zupan et al. 2013). According to recently published results, this haplogroup is487 slightly less frequent in Slovenia than in the closest neighboring population of Bosnia and488 Herzegovina (Babić et al. 2021) and Croatia (Primorac et al. 2011). Outside Europe

published yesterday ( if i am not wrong)
https://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S1872-4973(23)00061-3/fulltext
you are correct
caspian
i put the y-str values from supplementary material in nevgen predictor
it gave me 99% prediction of the e-v13 branch
 
published yesterday ( if i am not wrong)
https://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S1872-4973(23)00061-3/fulltext
you are correct
caspian
i put the y-str values from supplementary material in nevgen predictor
it gave me 99% prediction of the e-v13 branch

I wonder if they were local or yet another Dacian/Thraco-Cimmerian or Roman-Thracian. :awesome:

Might be that Lake Bled area was part of Urnfield-Hallstatt, where occassionally in these sites just like La Tene we find E-V13, these sites were cremation users during Iron Age. IDK, let's see the autosomal where they plot.
 
I think i have read from some Serb records that in Nish, Toplic, Vranje they had the most trouble with Gash and Sop over there, they considered these two tribes as most anti-Serb. But, didn't know the Gash-Bardhaj skipped Kosove and went to Nish, Toplic and surroundings. That's new to me. I thought the Gash in Nish and surroundings they should be same as Luzha/Botusha.
This was an older discussion about Gash-Bardhaj in Nish area or better say old North East Dardania. I have lately been invested in tracking down partial ancestry in my family tree from that area hence coming back to this discussion about Gash-Bardhaj and Gash in general that we had.

They did not have to skip nothing. Limiting the presence or spread of a tribe to a few square kilometers seems generally wrong to me. I don't see a problem with Albanian tribes staying in both North East Dardania (Nish etc.) and contemporaneously more to the south West, after all we are talking about north-east Dardania where until 1876-1878 the majority were Paleo-Balkan people aka Albanians. If we want to emphasize a migration then it is that of non native Slavs moving to the area.
 
The numbers are not always as reliable, because of the Ashkenazi Jewish testers and the general testing bias, both on YFull and less, but still, on FTDNA, but I thought it could be interesting to make a relative comparison within E-V13, as to which populations have a higher than 50 % ratio for E-Z5018 and whether there can be something read out of it.

Apparently E-Z5018 is most prominent in the Central-Southern Balkans (Albania and Macedonia), with relative peaks especially in the West (Netherlands, England, Ireland, Spain, Morocco) and North East (Finland, Russia). In the central regions we got Romania, Slovakia and Austria. At least going by the YFull numbers, both the West and the East Balkans decrease in relative frequency, compared to those regions.

Lithuania 0,55 (0)
Finland 0,56 (0,32) +
Ireland 0,58 (0,35) +
Palestinian Territory, Occupied 0,63 (0)
Syria 0,74 (0)
Scotland 0,77 (0,11)
Jordan 0,85 (0,85) +
Iran 0,89 (0)
Morocco 1,1 (1,1) +
Algeria 1,2 (0,40)
Russia 1,2 (0,62) +
Egypt 1,2 (0,61)
Belgium 1,2 (0)
Sweden 1,3 (0,37)
Israel 1,3 (0)
Iraq 1,5 (0)
Ukraine 1,6 (0,82) +
Lybia 1,7 (0,84)
Bahrain 2 (0)
Armenia 2,2 (0,99)
Norway 2,5 (0,75)
Libanon 2,6 (0)
Wales 2,6 (0)
Turkey 2,7 (1)
Azerbaijan 2,8 (1,4) +
France 2,8 (1)
Poland 2,8 (0,74)
Netherlands 2,9 (1,5) +
Switzerland 3 (0)
Qatar 3,7 (0)
Portugal 3,9 (1,4)
Italy 3,9 (1,2)
England 4,2 (3) +
Austria 4,2 (2,8) +
United Arab Emirate 4,3 (0)
Germany 5,3 (1,1)
Spain 6,2 (3,7) +
Moldova 6,3 (0)
Hungary 6,7 (1,8)
Czechia 6,8 (2,6)
Slovakia 6,8 (4,1) +
Serbia 6,8 (1,3)
Cyprus 7,7 (0)
Greece 8,1 (3,4)
Romania 11 (6,5) +
Bosnia 13 (4,1)
Bulgaria 14 (5,5)
Croatia 16 (4)
Montenegro 18 (8,7)
Albania 25 (15) +
Macedonia 27 (15) +

Here are the numbers from FTDNA, some stay the same or are similar, others change:
Kosovo 23 40% (23) +
Albania 43 27% (8)
Montenegro 17 17% (9) +
Macedonia 14 14% (8) +
Bulgaria 63 13% (5)
Italy (Sicily) 4 13% (3)
Bosnia and Herzegovina 23 12% (4)
Croatia 22 10% (3)
Malta 6 10% (2)
Serbia 21 9% (2)
Greece 66 8% (3)
Slovakia 26 6% (2)
Slovenia 8 5% (1)
Italy 135 4% (1)
Czech Republic 42 4% (2) +
Austria 25 4% (2) +
Romania 21 4% (1)
Moldova 3 4% (1)
Cyprus 2 4% (0)
Turkmenistan 1 4% (0)
Germany 307 3% (1)
Switzerland 55 3% (1)
Hungary 29 3% (< 1)
Portugal 25 3% (1)
England (Cornish) 3 3% (3) +
England 243 2% (1) +
France 86 2% (1) +
Russian Federation 74 2% (1) +
Poland 69 2% (< 1)
Ukraine 38 2% (1) +
Turkey 28 2% (1) +
Netherlands 21 2% (1) +
Italy (Sardinia) 20 2% (1) +
Wales 18 2% (< 1)
Armenia 12 2% (1) +
Qatar 12 2% (0)
Syrian Arab Republic 9 2% (< 1)
Belgium 7 2% (< 1)
Estonia 3 2% (1) +
Ireland 90 1%(< 1)
Scotland 68 1% (< 1)
United Kingdom 60 1% (< 1)
Sweden 39 1% (< 1)
Spain 36 1% (< 1)
Finland 24 1% (< 1) +
Norway 22 1% (< 1)
Iraq 12 1% (< 1)
Northern Ireland 10 1% (< 1)
Denmark 10 1% (< 1)

A big difference stems from many Albanians from Kosovo which are under Albania on YFull, but under Kosovo here. Therefore the centre of E-Z5018 in the Central-Southern Balkans becomes more obvious, it is Kosovo-Macedonia-Montenegro. The decrease both to the West- and East Balkans stays the same, but the decrease to the West Balkans is way more more pronounced than the one to the East.

The Western-North Western European group changes, with Netherlands, England, France, Cornwall, Sardinia. Netherlands, England and Cornwall being confirmed by both YFull and FTDNA. This is remarkable insofar, as they are neighbouring countries and the Dutch and English have a very close genetic relationship. Also confirmed being Austria, whereas in the case of Czechia and Slovakia, Czechia has a higher Z5018 ratio on FTDNA, Slovakia on YFull. For Czechia, Slovakia and Romania we deal with a borderline situation, same goes, with a tendency towards high, for Montenegro. Also confirmed being Finland and Russia, plus a couple of Caucasian people. Spain is more complicated to count on FTDNA, because its being split into different regions for some small sample groups.

The ratio for E-Z5018 is particularly low (less than 1/3 usually) in countries like:
Croatia
Bosnia
Serbia
Cyprus
Italy
Near East-Gulf States

So we have a steep decrease West, South and South East, but a relatively stable ratio directly to the North, through parts of Bulgaria and Romania, and from there to the West- and East Slavs, as well as the West of Europe and down to Morocco.

Here is the map with the more significant results:

E-Z5018-relative-frequency-in-the-total-E-V13-population.jpg


It is clear that E-Z5018 was relatively more dominant in three expansion areas:
- Central Balkans (Montenegro, Kosovo, Macedonia)
- Western-North Western Europe (England, Netherlands, France, Sardinia)
- All Slavic groups, with the exception of Western South Slavs
- Austrians, presumably regional German groups also
- Finns-Estonians

That the decrease is so steep in some directions (Western Balkans, Italy, Cyprus, Near East) is the most remarkable result. I mainly used results with a minimum of testers and excluded very small testing populations. The numbers are sometimes approximate on the map, because of conflicting results.

The most interesting part about these ratios is, that they hold up, by and large, even if the total E-V13 percentage is rather skewed, like because of the above mentioned better represented Ashkenazi Jews.

We know that a lot of subclades overlap between Southern Slavs and more Northern populations, this includes a lot of E-Z5018 subclades. The big difference between the Western, Northern and Eastern Slavs and the Western South Slavs is that they have many different sources of E-V13, whereas the Northern Slavic groups have primarily two. The Northern Slavic groups have a primary admixture event with various E-V13 branches close to their Proto- to Early Slavic stage, apparently from a rather Northern population, most likely Dacian remnants and mixed groups. The secondary being more East and South Balkan in origin.

The South Slavs have no low total E-Z5018 obviously, but just relatively, so its not like they haven't received the same sort of E-Z5018, but a lot of their E-V13 simply comes from another, older/more Western Balkan source.

The question is therefore which source and group, at which time, spread these non-E-Z5018 subclades of E-V13 to the West Balkans. I would assume different waves coming in, starting with Channelled Ware, but we might also deal with Illyrian and Roman era redistribution. If we extrapolate the numbers, the ratio we find for the Northern Slavs (about 50:50), we could conclude that say in Croatia about 50 % of the local E-V13 is from a different source than that we find in the E-Z5018 groups. Interestingly, that number repeats itself for Italy and Serbia, whereas its already different for Albania and Bosnia and much different in Bulgaria.

The centre for this non-E-Z5018 related E-V13 diversity is therefore Croatia-Serbia-Italy in Europe and the Near East abroad. To me the main explanation for this pattern is that a central group, in which E-Z5018 was more dominant, pushed from its centre outward, therefore older branches and splinters were moving to the fringe of the distribution zone (West Balkan and Near East), or just preserved the old diversity better, whereas in the central group more specific branches, especially E-Z5018, increased in frequency over time.

Since areas like France, England, Russia, Finland, Caucasus and Central Asia received their E-V13 later, mainly from the Vekerzug and Sythian-related groups, as well as the Celtic backflow and even later migrations, they already got that ratio from the centre too, whereas the fringes, which received earlier migrations, got the old ratios and older branches more often.

The Slavic expansion largely annihilated the older distribution and frequencies in many regions, and spread what was part of the early Slavic tribal diversity, that's why we got E-Z5018 more dominant in areas in which the Slavic replacement level was very high. Presumably, in many of these regions a different E-V13 diversity existed before, but unlike in Germany, Italy and the West Balkans, it couldn't be preserved to the same degree.


That's the major difference. The high E-Z5018 ratio suggests later expansions from the primary central group I would associate primarily with the Dacians/North Thracians, which also contributed more and earlier to the earliest Slavs than the regional Balkan groups.
 
Well, E-V13 Z5018 is present in Central and South Albania, among Labs who are South-West Albanians especially, E-V13 reaches around ~35% and almost all of it is E-V13 Z5018, most being under E-V13 => FGC11450 with some E-V13 Z5018 rare branches.

I would say the only difference between Kosovars and rest of Albanians is the rise of E-V13 FGC33625 from Berisha-Sopi, although i would say Sopi was either equally or more responsible for that considering in Nish, Toplic and surroundings they were one of the tribes benefiting the most from Ottomans, while Berishas were completely opposite, they resisted and fighted the Ottomans until the end, and in fact got severely weakened by fighting them.
 
@Hawk

The Ottoman era was brutal to the Albanian ethnos and I don't see how any Albanian tribe would have benefited from it.

I would actually be interested in a good layout regarding uniparentals of Albanians from the broader Nish region. They have had a great demographic impact in Kosovë.
 
Well, E-V13 Z5018 is present in Central and South Albania, among Labs who are South-West Albanians especially, E-V13 reaches around ~35% and almost all of it is E-V13 Z5018, most being under E-V13 => FGC11450 with some E-V13 Z5018 rare branches.

I would say the only difference between Kosovars and rest of Albanians is the rise of E-V13 FGC33625 from Berisha-Sopi, although i would say Sopi was either equally or more responsible for that considering in Nish, Toplic and surroundings they were one of the tribes benefiting the most from Ottomans, while Berishas were completely opposite, they resisted and fighted the Ottomans until the end, and in fact got severely weakened by fighting them.

E-Z5018 is present nearly everywhere in Europe, but the question is how their ratio to other clades looks like. The Albanian data base on YFull is much bigger than on FTDNA, but unfortunately I can't see the region, not even whether its Kosovo or mainland Albania. Are there any statistics for the subclades per region?
 

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