peloponnesian
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Which recent findings?
Egyptian Ancient Dna from the Old and Middle Kingdoms
- Thread starter T101
- Start date
Philjames100
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What's the evidence for that?
qh777
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- H/ H1/H1ao
Egyptian_Old_Kingdom_Period_Gizeh:I6409
Egyptian_Old_Middle_Kingdom_Period_Dahshur:I10020
Egyptian_Middle_Kingdom-Djehuty_Nakht_2100B.C:I6130
Egyptian_Dynasties_Period:I4270
Egyptian_Middle_Kingdom_Period:Egyptian_1879bc:Nakht-Ankh
Egyptian_Late_Kingdom_Period:EGY_Late_Period:JK2134
Egyptian_Late_Kingdom_Period:EGY_Late_Period:JK2911
Do any of these samples have contamination?
Egyptian_Ptleomic_Period:EGY_Hellenistic_contam:JK2888 This one is labeled as having contamination. Is some contamination ok when using samples for modeling? I wouldn't think so.
Egyptian_Old_Middle_Kingdom_Period_Dahshur:I10020
Egyptian_Middle_Kingdom-Djehuty_Nakht_2100B.C:I6130
Egyptian_Dynasties_Period:I4270
Egyptian_Middle_Kingdom_Period:Egyptian_1879bc:Nakht-Ankh
Egyptian_Late_Kingdom_Period:EGY_Late_Period:JK2134
Egyptian_Late_Kingdom_Period:EGY_Late_Period:JK2911
Do any of these samples have contamination?
Egyptian_Ptleomic_Period:EGY_Hellenistic_contam:JK2888 This one is labeled as having contamination. Is some contamination ok when using samples for modeling? I wouldn't think so.
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kingjohn
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agree
by logic we should find some e-m78>v12
and e-m78>v22 among the ancient egyptians
about contamination i think they are talking about this paper :
“Genetic Predisposition of Atherosclerotic Cardiovascular Disease in Ancient Human Remains”
( And it look like that paper includes:
some new 17 ancient egyptian remains)
Genetic Predisposition of Atherosclerotic Cardiovascular Disease in Ancient Human Remains
Several computed tomographic studies have shown the presence of atherosclerosis in ancient human remains. However, while it is important to understand the development of atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease (ASCVD), genetic data concerning the prevalence ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
p.s
some of them were uploaded to theytree
it is not only strange the r1b dominance among them
but also autosomally some of the 17 remians had k12b values that look more like southern europeans
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Hawk
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agree by logic we should find some e-m78>v12
and e-m78>v22 among the ancient egyptians
about contamination i think they are talking about this paper :
“Genetic Predisposition of Atherosclerotic Cardiovascular Disease in Ancient Human Remains”
( And it look like that paper includes:
some new 17 ancient egyptian remains)
Genetic Predisposition of Atherosclerotic Cardiovascular Disease in Ancient Human Remains
Several computed tomographic studies have shown the presence of atherosclerosis in ancient human remains. However, while it is important to understand the development of atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease (ASCVD), genetic data concerning the prevalence ...
p.s
some of them were uploaded to theytree
it is not only strange the r1b dominance among them
but also autosomally there k12b values look more like southern europeans
miro explained in twitter, they are contaminated by a single person from a North Italian lab. Egyptian mummies are notoriously known to be touched by various persons.
Also, miro is the 3rd guy to confirm Old Kingdom is totally dominated by E1b (likely E-M35/E-M78). First guy leaked this several years ago (who leaked that Etruscans were mostly R1b and was true), now we know even New Kingdom saw resurgence of E-M35 domination.
King Tut dynasty very likely has the same fate. It will be invalidated soon.
We will have Old Kingdom Egyptian and Sumerian samples finally soon from more mature labs.
Anfänger
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Those that show minimal Steppe ancestry are contaminated. That should especially be true for "Egyptian_Middle_Kingdom-Djehuty_Nakht_2100B.C:I6130" but if my memory serves me well also for "Egyptian_Middle_Kingdom_Period:Egyptian_1879bc:Nakht-Ankh".
Contaminated samples are more or less useless because they show modern ancestry by those that worked on them.
I never believed in Tuts supposed R1b Y-Haplogroup in the first place. Didn’t make much sense 3 years ago and much less today.
qh777
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Ghurier
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None.
In fact the paper tested staff member DNA (as usual) to verify for contamination risks.
But, it is a typical mecanism from non-scientific "theoreticians", when their model didn't fit with data, then they will claim that the data have an issue.
I even saw that in collaboration meeting few years ago (in Physics), when a dude started to "yell" that there was a big issue with our data !!!
Our data were quite new. We were still trying to figure out all aspect of the data, thus we were all interested about what he might have found. We asked him what he identified.
He just replied that his model wasn't fitting, and therefore the data were wrong.
Back in those day, we nearly all laughed quite loudly.
Usually it start to smell bad when data quality is determined on the basis of the agreement with a model.
On internet forum, this is a behavior you'll meet quite often.
Regarding King-Tut Y-haplogroup ... it is pointless anyway.
Could a R-M269 made its way to egyptian New Kingdom ? Definitely possible (It is not like the geographical distance is that huge).
But, we know that if such movement occured it was linked to isolated travellers/merchants as no significant cultural influences are documented.
Thus : end of the "scientific" part of the story, Y-lineage are peculiar oddities based on the lucky success of some males, like for any other mutations (sometimes expansion of mutations is based on natural selection, sometimes just on random founder effects).
Then starts the "ideological" part of the story, with some idéologically motivated considerations ... with peoples fighting not about data/science but about some preconceived ideology they want to push for.
In the case of Tut's lineage, what strongly disfavor the contamination idea is the coherence of the genealogic tree :
If heavy contamination was at play, you won't expect it to follow the structure of the genealogic tree.
Therefore, considering the contamination checks made in the paper, and considering that the results are following a consistent patern for the genealogic tree ... there is little to no scientific reasons to cast doubts about the found haplogroups.
Now, of course, some ideologies might be annoyed that such haplogroup made it to Egypt back in the New Kingdom and even "dared" to end up on a Royal line !
In fact, a single lineage taken alone (even on a Royal line) says nothing about autosomal components and cultural influences.
The only peoples who care about that are probably having some "strange" vision of how humans mobility works (and how cultural integration works).
What we know from modern DNA of Egyptians is that if some European lineages made it to Egypt during BA, they weren't a lot (which is consistent with the lack of cultural influences).
Trying to prove that not a single lonely traveller made it to Egypt is at best a very weird angle for a scientific work.
Scientifically speaking it is pointless, no-one serious cares about one peculiar haplogroup when reasoning at the scale of civilisations.
What shows Tut's Y-DNA is just that human mobility between Europe and North-Africa wasn't equal to 0 (yet we have many reasons to think that is was very very small).
Which shouldn't comes as a surprise anyway.
Now, most likely, Tut's lineage didn't arrive from outside to conquer Egypt ... it was likely from a traveller that got abosrbed by Egyptian culture and luckily accessed to power many years after, once being an "integrated" component of the egyptian population.
Thus it is only a "case" for people having some ideological issues about human mobility.
Historically-wise, such peculiar Y-DNA is pointless. Statistical analysis about Y-lineages can be usefull, but for that it would require a lot of tested lineages (and not only royals), and very deep analyses to establish exact clades.
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kingjohn
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from this paper :
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
those that were uploaded to theytree:
www.theytree.com
www.theytree.com
www.theytree.com
www.theytree.com
www.theytree.com
www.theytree.com
www.theytree.com
www.theytree.com
p.s
it is ok even as an hobbyist like myself to ask questions
were is e1b1b1?
strange
it is the most common y haplogroup in egypt
Genetic Predisposition of Atherosclerotic Cardiovascular Disease in Ancient Human Remains
Several computed tomographic studies have shown the presence of atherosclerosis in ancient human remains. However, while it is important to understand the development of atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease (ASCVD), genetic data concerning the prevalence ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
those that were uploaded to theytree:
1967 | Egypt 1st IP - Middle Kingdom (2160-1650 BC) - R-L20 - 祖源树TheYtree
祖源树TheYtree样本：1967 | Egypt 1st IP - Middle Kingdom (2160-1650 BC)
2284 | Egypt Old Kingdom - 1st IP (2686-2055 BC) - R-M269 - 祖源树TheYtree
祖源树TheYtree样本：2284 | Egypt Old Kingdom - 1st IP (2686-2055 BC)
1946 ÄM 14590 | Egypt Predynastic (4500-3500 BC) - R-L20 - 祖源树TheYtree
祖源树TheYtree样本：1946 ÄM 14590 | Egypt Predynastic (4500-3500 BC)
1945 ÄM 700/3 ERR11563087 ERR11600029 - R-P310 - 祖源树TheYtree
祖源树TheYtree样本：1945 ÄM 700/3 ERR11563087 ERR11600029
1946 ÄM 14590 ERR11563088 ERR11600030 - R-L20 - 祖源树TheYtree
祖源树TheYtree样本：1946 ÄM 14590 ERR11563088 ERR11600030
1951 JK 615.11 (ÄM 36996) ERR11563089 ERR11600031 - G-Z6552 / K1a18 - 祖源树TheYtree
祖源树TheYtree样本：1951 JK 615.11 (ÄM 36996) ERR11563089 ERR11600031
1967 ÄM 16201 ERR11563093 ERR11563094 ERR11600034 ERR11600035 - R-L20 - 祖源树TheYtree
祖源树TheYtree样本：1967 ÄM 16201 ERR11563093 ERR11563094 ERR11600034 ERR11600035
2287 Provv. 1488 (child) ERR11563101 - J-L70 - 祖源树TheYtree
祖源树TheYtree样本：2287 Provv. 1488 (child) ERR11563101
p.s
it is ok even as an hobbyist like myself to ask questions
were is e1b1b1?
strange
it is the most common y haplogroup in egypt
Last edited:
Hawk
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from this paper :
Genetic Predisposition of Atherosclerotic Cardiovascular Disease in Ancient Human Remains
Several computed tomographic studies have shown the presence of atherosclerosis in ancient human remains. However, while it is important to understand the development of atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease (ASCVD), genetic data concerning the prevalence ...
View attachment 15855
those that were uploaded to theytree:
1967 | Egypt 1st IP - Middle Kingdom (2160-1650 BC) - R-L20 - 祖源树TheYtree
祖源树TheYtree样本：1967 | Egypt 1st IP - Middle Kingdom (2160-1650 BC)
2284 | Egypt Old Kingdom - 1st IP (2686-2055 BC) - R-M269 - 祖源树TheYtree
祖源树TheYtree样本：2284 | Egypt Old Kingdom - 1st IP (2686-2055 BC)
1946 ÄM 14590 | Egypt Predynastic (4500-3500 BC) - R-L20 - 祖源树TheYtree
祖源树TheYtree样本：1946 ÄM 14590 | Egypt Predynastic (4500-3500 BC)
1945 ÄM 700/3 ERR11563087 ERR11600029 - R-P310 - 祖源树TheYtree
祖源树TheYtree样本：1945 ÄM 700/3 ERR11563087 ERR11600029
1946 ÄM 14590 ERR11563088 ERR11600030 - R-L20 - 祖源树TheYtree
祖源树TheYtree样本：1946 ÄM 14590 ERR11563088 ERR11600030
1951 JK 615.11 (ÄM 36996) ERR11563089 ERR11600031 - G-Z6552 / K1a18 - 祖源树TheYtree
祖源树TheYtree样本：1951 JK 615.11 (ÄM 36996) ERR11563089 ERR11600031
1967 ÄM 16201 ERR11563093 ERR11563094 ERR11600034 ERR11600035 - R-L20 - 祖源树TheYtree
祖源树TheYtree样本：1967 ÄM 16201 ERR11563093 ERR11563094 ERR11600034 ERR11600035
2287 Provv. 1488 (child) ERR11563101 - J-L70 - 祖源树TheYtree
祖源树TheYtree样本：2287 Provv. 1488 (child) ERR11563101
p.s
it is ok even as an hobbyist like myself to ask questions
were is e1b1b1?
strange
it is the most common y haplogroup in egypt
It was already given an answer, these are not real results. They are contaminated and will be nullified.
Old Kingdom Egypt will be mostly E-M35. They are coming soon as a peer reviewed paper.
kingjohn
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Last edited:
qh777
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I wish they would go into overdrive in pumping out new ancient samples (G25 coords, etc) for Egypt and the near east entirely. For England alone from the BA-IA there's over 280 samples. For Egypt counting the questionable samples that aren't averages, there's only like 12 with coordinates.
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kingjohn
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these are the only ancient egyptians individuals
i see at davidski g25 spreadsheet : ( we need more )
Egypt_ThirdIntermediatePeriod:JK2134,0.046667,0.149283,-0.037712,-0.119188,-0.001846,-0.050479,-0.005875,-0.008077,0.048063,0.005467,-0.000487,-0.012139,0.030178,0.002615,-0.001221,-0.012066,-0.008996,-0.004307,-0.006159,0.009755,0.004742,0.000618,0.005053,0.011568,0.006347
Egypt_ThirdIntermediatePeriod:JK2911,0.054635,0.144205,-0.045632,-0.118219,-0.001846,-0.04769,-0.019271,-0.000231,0.048063,0.006925,0.01835,-0.016635,0.0278,-0.009771,-0.003529,0.002121,-0.00678,0.005828,-0.006536,0.018759,0.006613,0.006306,0.003821,-0.008917,-0.005508
and these are modern egyptian samples :
Egyptian:10AJ136,0.004553,0.142174,-0.050534,-0.09044,-0.005847,-0.033467,-0.00423,0.000231,0.02986,-0.000364,0.01088,-0.017534,0.02438,0.000413,0.010993,0.003845,-0.009388,-0.007601,-0.010433,-0.000875,-0.000749,-0.006306,0.008258,0.003856,-0.003832
Egyptian:10AJ137,-0.014797,0.13405,-0.034695,-0.083334,0.000923,-0.026216,-0.013161,-0.000231,0.03211,-0.004556,0.005846,-0.013638,0.012933,-0.00578,-0.003393,0.005436,0.002086,-0.006714,-0.008045,0.004502,-0.002745,0.006183,0.008627,0.003253,-0.000239
Egyptian:12AJ129,-0.009106,0.132019,-0.052797,-0.07429,-0.006463,-0.039602,-0.019976,-0.002308,0.044586,-0.002551,0.011854,-0.010041,0.020664,0.006193,-0.00665,-0.009016,-0.012126,-0.003167,-0.00088,-0.001751,0.00025,0.005812,0.003204,0.010604,0.014609
Egyptian:12AJ136,-0.010244,0.128972,-0.043746,-0.09367,-0.001846,-0.029284,-0.017861,0.006461,0.037428,-0.004556,0.005521,-0.009741,0.019029,0.011973,-0.0057,-0.002519,-0.007823,0.005194,0.002891,0.001376,0.000749,0.005193,0.002465,-0.003374,0.002874
Egyptian:15AJ137,-0.029594,0.139128,-0.039598,-0.090763,-0.011694,-0.028168,-0.007285,0.006692,0.040291,-0.004009,0.004547,-0.005695,0.029881,0.005367,0.003122,-0.006762,-0.00678,0.007475,-0.013198,-0.005878,0.003743,-0.009027,-0.002588,0.001325,-0.000479
Egyptian:16AJ137,-0.011382,0.133034,-0.041106,-0.082688,0.004924,-0.031794,-0.011281,-0.001385,0.037428,0.006743,0.002598,-0.012589,0.013825,-0.001927,0.0038,-0.008884,-0.009127,-0.005068,-0.000628,0.002876,-0.01148,-0.008161,-0.001972,0.010604,-0.000838
Egyptian:1AJ137,-0.003415,0.140143,-0.048271,-0.083334,-0.010771,-0.027331,-0.015981,-0.003461,0.038041,0.004556,0.009906,-0.009142,0.015907,0.007019,0.000679,0.004243,0.007041,-0.007221,-0.008925,0.002376,-0.001248,-0.001237,-0.002958,0.001084,0.004431
Egyptian:2AJ137,-0.020488,0.140143,-0.042992,-0.09367,0.004616,-0.034025,-0.020681,-0.005077,0.03845,0.001276,0.013803,-0.009891,0.020812,0.00523,-0.002036,-0.006099,-0.006389,-0.003294,-0.004777,0.008629,-0.004742,0.006306,0.000246,-0.00241,0.00012
Egyptian:3AJ137,0.002276,0.13405,-0.038843,-0.097223,-0.00277,-0.03263,-0.01081,0.001615,0.029042,0.001458,0.012179,-0.01109,0.028246,-0.003303,0.003257,0.005569,0.015907,-0.003421,-0.008547,0.007504,-0.002121,-0.005317,-0.001109,0.000361,-0.002994
Egyptian:4AJ136,-0.006829,0.132019,-0.050911,-0.095931,-0.014156,-0.032351,-0.011045,-0.002308,0.039269,0.013668,0.006658,-0.005845,0.029137,0.010322,0.009365,-0.000265,-0.011865,-0.004941,-0.005028,0.002251,0.003993,-0.004946,-0.008627,-0.003374,-0.001557
Egyptian:4AJ137,-0.022765,0.133034,-0.039598,-0.090763,-0.004924,-0.034861,-0.011045,0.001846,0.044177,-0.006014,0,-0.007343,0.011001,-0.004266,-0.0038,-0.007558,-0.016298,-0.00228,-0.010307,-0.003627,-0.003244,-0.00643,-0.010846,-0.003735,-0.001557
Egyptian:5AJ136,-0.018212,0.12491,-0.035449,-0.078812,-0.001846,-0.026774,-0.014336,0.007384,0.041109,0.010752,0.009743,-0.015886,0.022745,0.000826,-0.010586,0.013392,0.007302,-0.001014,-0.010182,0.005878,-0.007986,-0.002844,-0.001232,0.008676,0.002155
Egyptian:5AJ137,-0.117238,0.125926,-0.029415,-0.064277,-0.002462,-0.030399,-0.016451,0.003692,0.037837,-0.004738,0.005359,0.003897,0.021556,0.004954,0.000543,-0.004641,0.003912,-0.012542,0.002765,0.007003,0.000998,-0.005688,0.001602,-0.003012,-0.001437
Egyptian:6AJ129,0.026179,0.137096,-0.053174,-0.10336,0,-0.037092,-0.016921,0.001615,0.036405,0.007289,0.005034,-0.007793,0.030773,0.008257,0.004614,-0.007425,-0.017341,0.003674,-0.006285,0.001376,0.011729,0.00371,-0.003574,-0.003735,-0.002155
Egyptian:7AJ129,-0.050082,0.127957,-0.046763,-0.073967,-0.005847,-0.031515,-0.00705,0.001846,0.043768,0.001822,0.001624,-0.009292,0.023786,0.005092,-0.011808,-0.001326,-0.019166,0.000253,0.003897,0.004627,0.006239,-0.001607,-0.000616,0.002651,-0.005868
Egyptian:7AJ136,-0.01935,0.131003,-0.043369,-0.085595,-0.009848,-0.027331,-0.00611,-0.006923,0.030474,0.004738,0.009094,-0.002847,0.008771,-0.006744,-0.007057,0.009679,0.00326,-0.004814,0.006159,-0.002251,0.003868,-0.016322,-0.002465,-0.004699,-0.007784
Egyptian:8AJ129,-0.018212,0.144205,-0.043746,-0.084949,-0.01231,-0.030957,-0.019506,0.001846,0.023725,-0.00328,0.000162,-0.008992,0.020961,0.00812,0.004479,-0.001591,-0.005476,0.004434,-0.004274,0.01038,0.000749,-0.000742,0.00456,-0.00494,0.000239
Egyptian:8AJ136,-0.013659,0.141159,-0.046386,-0.097223,-0.011387,-0.033188,-0.016451,0.009923,0.039882,-0.010205,0.00406,-0.003597,0.031813,0.005918,0.018594,0.010475,-0.005867,-0.006081,-0.009176,0.015758,0.006364,0.000742,-0.003204,0.008073,-0.007544
Egyptian:9AJ129,-0.012521,0.14319,-0.038089,-0.091086,0.005539,-0.038487,-0.021151,0.001846,0.036405,0.014761,0.009581,-0.009891,0.023488,-0.001514,-0.007193,0.005304,0.003129,-0.004434,0.006411,0.009254,0.00287,0,0.009737,-0.001084,0.001796
Egyptian:Egypt12AQ172,-0.009106,0.132019,-0.043369,-0.091086,0.001539,-0.031236,-0.01034,-0.002077,0.045404,-0.000911,0.007307,-0.004646,0.028692,-0.005092,-0.008143,-0.003447,0.001304,-0.010515,-0.004777,-0.000875,-0.007237,-0.008037,-0.003944,0.007471,0.002754
Egyptian:Egypt15AQ172,-0.013659,0.133034,-0.039975,-0.09044,-0.008617,-0.046017,-0.013866,-0.000923,0.034769,0.005103,0.00747,-0.008692,0.022002,0.007432,-0.001493,-0.012596,-0.009257,-0.000633,-0.005531,0.002876,-0.000873,0.005317,-0.001109,0.001205,0.000239
Egyptian:Egypt17AQ176,-0.006829,0.127957,-0.040729,-0.083334,0,-0.029284,-0.014336,0.003461,0.043155,0.004009,0.007307,-0.004196,0.023488,0.00234,0.003393,-0.009149,-0.005215,-0.004814,-0.006536,0.00025,-0.006988,-0.002102,-0.000493,-0.000723,-0.001557
Egyptian:Egypt1AQ172,-0.001138,0.132019,-0.04186,-0.092055,-0.005539,-0.04016,-0.015511,0.005769,0.046631,-0.007836,0.008119,-0.012289,0.023786,0.003028,0.001493,0.000928,0.001956,0.002154,0.004399,0.008129,0.001373,-0.009892,0.001972,0.006386,-0.011256
Egyptian:Egypt22TD21,-0.006829,0.131003,-0.044123,-0.08075,-0.001846,-0.037371,-0.017391,0,0.043359,-0.004009,0.004384,-0.006744,0.019029,-0.003303,0.000543,0.004906,0.011865,-0.006081,-0.006034,0.006628,-0.004367,-0.00136,0.002342,0.004699,-0.000239
Egyptian:Egypt3AQ172,-0.002276,0.136081,-0.038089,-0.087533,-0.000308,-0.04016,-0.014571,-0.001154,0.039064,0.004556,0.012017,-0.006145,0.022894,0.002615,-0.007872,0.009281,-0.005607,-0.001267,0.002388,0.000625,-0.006489,0.002349,0.006162,-0.007832,0.014011
Egyptian:Egypt5AQ172,-0.005691,0.123895,-0.04714,-0.091086,-0.007386,-0.033188,-0.013866,-0.000692,0.03845,-0.000182,0.013153,-0.014537,0.031516,-0.00578,-0.001493,-0.015248,-0.007432,0.003041,-0.009553,-0.004377,0.008485,0.00371,0.003328,-0.00494,0.000718
Egyptian:Egypt7AQ172,-0.001138,0.135065,-0.040729,-0.085595,-0.003693,-0.039324,-0.012691,-0.000462,0.032315,0.008565,0.009419,-0.006894,0.031516,0.00812,0.003529,-0.005967,-0.003912,0.007348,0.001131,0.001376,-0.005989,0.004081,0.007395,0.00494,0.000479
Egyptian:Egypt8AT113,-0.028456,0.142174,-0.046386,-0.087533,-0.005232,-0.032072,-0.008225,-0.007384,0.035383,0.002187,-0.000812,-0.013788,0.030475,-0.006606,-0.000136,0.00769,-0.00678,-0.005321,-0.001634,0.004377,0.003743,0.001731,0.003204,0.00723,-0.009101
Egyptian:Egypt9AQ172,-0.021626,0.133034,-0.039598,-0.091086,-0.004616,-0.030399,-0.018096,-0.000462,0.034155,0.001093,0.005359,-0.014987,0.022894,-0.003303,-0.003393,0.010342,0.001565,-0.005321,-0.004777,0.005002,-0.007487,-0.010387,0.002588,-0.001687,0.006347
Egyptian:Egypt9AQ177,-0.022765,0.133034,-0.04186,-0.08075,-0.010156,-0.035977,-0.013396,-0.002308,0.035178,-0.003462,0.007145,-0.003447,0.022002,-0.000826,-0.003257,0.009546,0.007432,-0.005574,0.004902,0.003877,0.001248,-0.013354,0.00419,-0.010965,-0.00455
qh777
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- English, Scottish, Irish, French, German, Belgian
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- J2/J-M67/ J2a1b
- mtDNA haplogroup
- H/ H1/H1ao
Code:
Egyptian_Old_Kingdom_Period_Gizeh:I6409,0.029665247,0.13868540,-0.047587444,-0.14426329,-0.0022221347,-0.063518622,-0.014261081,-0.013556098,0.087986490,0.0041161682,-0.0028172711,-0.019512651,0.055365686,0.0068209691,0.0071103512,0.014172621,-0.0011899901,-0.019799603,-0.021658496,0.032836460,-0.0024145371,-0.010472191,-0.0046426664,-0.0034683108,0.0029676763
Egyptian_Old_Middle_Kingdom_Period_Dahshur:I10020,0.011530275,0.13728656,-0.049170061,-0.11359996,0.00099127203,-0.049440638,-0.020387999,-0.0026683728,0.062675346,-0.0081175666,0.0020009024,-0.011293133,0.028314321,0.020438082,0.0095046032,0.0088030027,-0.017175880,-0.0096735594,-0.0038784026,0.00068539449,0.0029141859,-0.015338366,-0.0043286787,-0.0012691466,0.0014364105
Egyptian_Middle_Kingdom-Djehuty_Nakht_2100B.C:I6130,0.053504150,0.13702279,-0.042256778,-0.088577892,0.0016483012,-0.037922341,-0.014478379,-0.0022917330,0.032911256,0.0051009809,0.0091531458,-0.013376381,0.026522487,0.0012096728,-0.0043573045,-0.0011185066,-0.021307803,6.0763451e-05,0.0033831153,0.0024352202,0.0013931869,-0.0017261886,0.0014597641,0.0049339092,0.0086866961
Egyptian_Dynasties_Period:I4270,0.029426332,0.12950421,-0.035513124,-0.086261212,0.00033343075,-0.051749749,-0.019966154,-0.0054937906,0.034047365,-0.0075339831,0.0072808600,-0.0097472856,0.017746303,0.0042224539,-0.0035992889,0.017692031,-0.0029042799,0.0011414125,-4.6902190e-05,-0.0047014951,0.0096118254,0.0052474445,0.0030944825,0.0031438881,0.0037047543
Egyptian_Middle_Kingdom_Period:Egyptian_1879bc:Nakht-Ankh,0.0012,0.129,-0.044,-0.0965,-0.0031,-0.0534,-0.017,-0.0078,0.0551,-0.0049,0.0138,-0.0172,0.0306,-0.0015,0.0069,-0.0072,-0.0111,0.0053,-0.004,0.0042,-0.0012,0.0046,-0.0078,0.0026,-0.0013
Egyptian_Ptleomic_Period:EGY_Hellenistic_contam:JK2888,0.040976,0.159438,-0.055437,-0.102068,0,-0.060798,-0.023266,-0.008307,0.048472,0.007472,0.015427,-0.019782,0.034341,-0.004129,0.00475,-0.015646,-0.024121,0.007348,-0.005028,-0.00025,-0.004617,0.008285,-0.012571,0.005302,-0.005987
Egyptian_Late_Kingdom_Period:EGY_Late_Period:JK2134,0.046667,0.152329,-0.037712,-0.121126,0,-0.054384,-0.010575,-0.006231,0.048472,0.007289,0.000162,-0.010191,0.026164,0.000138,0,-0.008486,-0.007953,-0.005194,-0.00176,0.006878,0.005989,0.001237,0.005053,0.013134,0.006227
Egyptian_Late_Kingdom_Period:EGY_Late_Period:JK2911,0.053497,0.141159,-0.04714,-0.115635,-0.004001,-0.04518,-0.020681,-0.003231,0.046427,0.005103,0.017863,-0.012739,0.0333,-0.011836,-0.001629,0.004375,-0.00691,0.001267,-0.005279,0.017133,0.005241,0.002102,0.002218,-0.005302,-0.007424
Egyptian_Outlier:Byzantine_Period:Iznik_Basilica_Nun,0.034147,0.143190,-0.036958,-0.089956,0.014157,-0.035001,-0.012574,-0.004385,0.047654,0.016766,0.008282,-0.010416,0.026313,-0.001170,0.004208,-0.005635,-0.005802,-0.009312,-0.019986,0.007254,-0.006426,-0.013355,0.005978,-0.004820,0.002036
Egyptian_Outlier:Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian:SFI-43,0.037562,0.14319,-0.050911,-0.109821,0.000615,-0.045459,-0.009635,0.001154,0.044995,0.006196,0.012991,-0.020382,0.0388,0.001101,-0.000407,0.005436,-0.002999,-0.002914,-0.004399,0.018259,0.013975,0.002968,0.001356,0.005302,-0.003353
Egyptian_Outlier:Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian:SFI-44,0.046667,0.146236,-0.040729,-0.094639,-0.000308,-0.03765,-0.011281,0.000231,0.041109,0.006743,0.010068,-0.010341,0.024529,-0.000826,0.006379,-0.010607,-0.015125,-0.001774,-0.002137,-0.001376,0.010107,0.009645,-0.001109,-0.001807,0.002754
Egyptian_Outlier:England_Roman_Period_Egyptian_Gladiator_o:3DT26,0.05122,0.156392,-0.050911,-0.102068,-0.003077,-0.044065,-0.012926,-0.007154,0.031906,0.000364,0.004384,-0.015436,0.027354,0.003853,-0.003936,0.005304,-0.000782,-0.001014,-0.005908,0.010505,0.003494,-0.003833,-0.001109,0.006868,-0.010059These are what I have that I think are Individuals contamination or not.
Philjames100
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None.
In fact the paper tested staff member DNA (as usual) to verify for contamination risks.
But, it is a typical mecanism from non-scientific "theoreticians", when their model didn't fit with data, then they will claim that the data have an issue.
I even saw that in collaboration meeting few years ago (in Physics), when a dude started to "yell" that there was a big issue with our data !!!
Our data were quite new. We were still trying to figure out all aspect of the data, thus we were all interested about what he might have found. We asked him what he identified.
He just replied that his model wasn't fitting, and therefore the data were wrong.
Back in those day, we nearly all laughed quite loudly.
Usually it start to smell bad when data quality is determined on the basis of the agreement with a model.
On internet forum, this is a behavior you'll meet quite often.
Regarding King-Tut Y-haplogroup ... it is pointless anyway.
Could a R-M269 made its way to egyptian New Kingdom ? Definitely possible (It is not like the geographical distance is that huge).
But, we know that if such movement occured it was linked to isolated travellers/merchants as no significant cultural influences are documented.
Thus : end of the "scientific" part of the story, Y-lineage are peculiar oddities based on the lucky success of some males, like for any other mutations (sometimes expansion of mutations is based on natural selection, sometimes just on random founder effects).
Then starts the "ideological" part of the story, with some idéologically motivated considerations ... with peoples fighting not about data/science but about some preconceived ideology they want to push for.
In the case of Tut's lineage, what strongly disfavor the contamination idea is the coherence of the genealogic tree :
If heavy contamination was at play, you won't expect it to follow the structure of the genealogic tree.
Therefore, considering the contamination checks made in the paper, and considering that the results are following a consistent patern for the genealogic tree ... there is little to no scientific reasons to cast doubts about the found haplogroups.
Now, of course, some ideologies might be annoyed that such haplogroup made it to Egypt back in the New Kingdom and even "dared" to end up on a Royal line !
In fact, a single lineage taken alone (even on a Royal line) says nothing about autosomal components and cultural influences.
The only peoples who care about that are probably having some "strange" vision of how humans mobility works (and how cultural integration works).
What we know from modern DNA of Egyptians is that if some European lineages made it to Egypt during BA, they weren't a lot (which is consistent with the lack of cultural influences).
Trying to prove that not a single lonely traveller made it to Egypt is at best a very weird angle for a scientific work.
Scientifically speaking it is pointless, no-one serious cares about one peculiar haplogroup when reasoning at the scale of civilisations.
What shows Tut's Y-DNA is just that human mobility between Europe and North-Africa wasn't equal to 0 (yet we have many reasons to think that is was very very small).
Which shouldn't comes as a surprise anyway.
Now, most likely, Tut's lineage didn't arrive from outside to conquer Egypt ... it was likely from a traveller that got abosrbed by Egyptian culture and luckily accessed to power many years after, once being an "integrated" component of the egyptian population.
Thus it is only a "case" for people having some ideological issues about human mobility.
Historically-wise, such peculiar Y-DNA is pointless. Statistical analysis about Y-lineages can be usefull, but for that it would require a lot of tested lineages (and not only royals), and very deep analyses to establish exact clades.
From the paper:
DNA extraction, authentication and contamination monitoring:
"Strict adherence to requirements of ancient DNA authentication, including laboratory design andpractice standards, was adopted for proof of reliability and quality of the results (Richards et al. 1995,291–299; Roberts & Ingham 2008, 600–613; Hawass et al. 2010, 638–647; Hawass et al. 2012,e8268; Keller et al. 2012, 698; Khairat et al. 2013, 309–325). DNA sampling and extraction weredone following the published protocols for ancient DNA (Scholz & Pusch 1997, 61–64; Hawass etal. 2010, 638–647; Hawass et al. 2012, e8268). Sampling, DNA extraction, amplification, andsequencing were carried out in distinct working areas. Surfaces and equipment were continuouslydecontaminated with DNase and bleach and exposed to UV irradiation. Procedural components werestrictly controlled and tested for the presence of contaminants. Negative controls were processedalongside each procedure to detect possible contamination with exogenous DNA sources (Tully et al. 2001, 83–91; Pusch & Bachmann 2004, 957–964; Gilbert et al. 2005, 541–544; Lamers et al.2009, 40–55; Haak et al. 2010, e1000536; Hawass et al. 2010, 638–647; Fulton 2012, 1–11; Khairatet al. 2013, 309–325). DNA fingerprinting for the lab members was carried out to exclude the presenceof staff DNA contamination. Reproducible results were verified through bacterial cloning of amplicons(Pääbo et al. 2004, 645–679; Fernández et al. 2014, e1004401) and through the analyses of differentbiopsies per mummy, where 3–6 bone samples were taken from various body areas of each studiedmummy (Hawass et al. 2010, 638–647). Recruitment of a dedicated laboratory separated from theoriginal one, run by an independent research team, was used for replication purposes (Gilbert et al.2005, 541–544; Lamers et al. 2009, 40–55; Hawass et al. 2010, 638–647; Fulton 2012, 1–11; Hawasset al. 2012, e8268)."
- Gad et al. 2020, Maternal and Paternal Lineages in King Tutankhamun’s Family
It even looks like they might have tested them twice as Tutankhamun's results were leaked back in 2011.
The finding that Amenhotep III had mtDNA H2b also fits with the evidence that his mother Mutemwiya was a Mitanni royal:
"H2b, on the other hand, is a minor branch. It contains several ancient samples from Russia, all basal to the rest of the branch, including one individual from the Yamnaya culture and one from the Late Bronze Age Srubnaya culture, both from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe region, and five other Bronze Age samples from east of the Volga river: three from Sintashta and two from Krasnoyarsk. Also in a basal position, there are three modern Russian samples (two from the Altai region) and one Danish sequence. Interestingly, while the vast majority (70%) of H2 modern sequences in our dataset are of European origin, H2b displays a strong South Asian component, with seven samples from Pakistan, India and Sri Lanka. The newly published Sintashta and Middle Bronze Age Krasnoyarsk (Russian) sequences (Narasimhan et al.2018), together with the previously released Yamnaya and Srubnaya, span a period from 5 to 3.5 ka. These, plus the modern South Asian sequences, support our earlier suggestion that H2b was involved in movements east and southwards from the Pontic-Caspian region into South Asia, by documenting its progress eastwards across the Eurasian Steppe. The Sintashta Culture in the Ural Mountains, or a “Sintashta-derived” culture (such as the Andronovo), is thought to have expanded eastwards into Central Asia 3.8 ka, reaching South Asia"
- Silva et al. 2019, Untangling Neolithic and Bronze Age mitochondrial lineages in South Asia
lynxbythetv
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So everytime a test is done we can conclude there has been some contamination. These bizzare results are likely just mistakes aka imperial Rome.
Last edited:
Philjames100
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This is a bit of a mystery. Djehutynakht had mtDNA U5b2b5, which is European in origin, and has been found in Bell Beaker samples. This result was found independently by Harvard and FBI labs, with no evidence of contamination. U5b2b5 has also been found in 10 samples from Christian period Nubia, and the Djehutynakht sequence is similar to a modern Egyptian U5b2b5 sample. So it seems implausible or even impossible that the Djehutynakht result is due to contamination, and it appears to be completely unrelated to the Eurac lab where this contamination is supposedly from. The result also fits with the presence of Bell Beaker ancestry – It makes sense, seeing as U5b2b5 has been found in Bell Beaker samples. Furthermore, according to the leaked data Djehutynahkt had Y-DNA G2a2a, and there's a Bronze Age sample from central Italy with U5b2b5, G2 and Bell Beaker ancestry. So it seems remarkably coincidental that this sample with a European haplogroup, would be contaminated with unrelated modern European DNA, which also matches ancient Bell Beaker DNA from Italy, which is associated with this haplogroup.
On top of this, another sample which according to Miro C is contaminated (a sample from Thebes) appears to be Takabuti, who also had a European mtDNA haplogroup (H4a1) which is associated with the Bell Beaker culture, and which seems to have a link to U5b2b5. This haplogroup was also found in the Guanches, along with Bell Beaker ancestry and R1b-M269. According to Fregel et al. (2020) its presence there is likely due to Bronze Age migration from Europe to North Africa. So again this fits with the presence of Bell Beaker ancestry in Takabuti. Takabuti's mtDNA was extracted and analysed at the Manchester Institute of Biotechnology, with no evidence of contamination.
This suggests to me that the apparent Bell Beaker ancestry in these samples might not actually be due to contamination, but I guess we'll have to see when the samples are finally published, if that ever happens.
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Philjames100
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MTree: Modern Egyptian sample and Djehutynakht, U5b2b5: https://www.yfull.com/mtree/U5b2b5a2a/
Nubian Christian Period samples:
"Ten individuals from both cemeteries belong to mtDNA haplogroup U5b2b5, though they also exhibit three additional mutations not typically found in members of this haplogroup. One of these mutations was detected in a 4,000-year-old mummy from Deir el-Bersha, Egypt also assigned to this haplogroup [Djehutynakht], raising the possibility that the presence of U5b2b5 at Kulubnarti reflects deep connections with Egypt”
- Sirak et al. 2021, Social stratification without genetic differentiation at the site of Kulubnarti in Christian Period Nubia
Ancient U5b2b5 samples:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yr77K8rGsPDTeMu1XQIAfNItGtIbh45xQqviKRL1Mqk/edit#gid=0
Nubian Christian Period samples:
"Ten individuals from both cemeteries belong to mtDNA haplogroup U5b2b5, though they also exhibit three additional mutations not typically found in members of this haplogroup. One of these mutations was detected in a 4,000-year-old mummy from Deir el-Bersha, Egypt also assigned to this haplogroup [Djehutynakht], raising the possibility that the presence of U5b2b5 at Kulubnarti reflects deep connections with Egypt”
- Sirak et al. 2021, Social stratification without genetic differentiation at the site of Kulubnarti in Christian Period Nubia
Ancient U5b2b5 samples:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yr77K8rGsPDTeMu1XQIAfNItGtIbh45xQqviKRL1Mqk/edit#gid=0
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