bicicleur 2
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it's allright
Politics ENGLISH EXPERT CLAIMS: Yugoslavia would be world power, and Belgrade-Europe's capital
- Thread starter Garrick
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it's allright
Milan
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I will give my own explanation and opinion.
Hatred was fueled by the separatist and nationalists movements,the question here is how they appeared?It was generally a economic downfall as we know that communism lost,so changes were needed in this part of Europe too-apparently this nationalist and separatist movement had the solution for this,if one had the solution all people do is-follow,it is easy to manipulate the people with kind words they want to hear,so pointing fingers become usual thing to do.Took too much time to authorities to carry this changes,they simple couldn't find the solution whether willfully or not.There was even missunderstandings from which city the state to be ruled,First the Slovenians choose they can't stand the mess will take their independence and will go toward EU,followed by Croatia and other republics,the problem in some republics was that they had mixed population in some regions,the ideas clashed right there,leaders using the population "ethnicity" nationality for their political goals,the myths of nationalism were resurected again as in the 19th century,the wounds,the division of Yugoslav population from not long ago ww2 was again there,the first Yugoslav monarchy failed very easy on different ideas during ww2.There was no lesson learned.Under Tito all this was subdued cause he had his own mechanism of brotherhood and unity for Yugoslav people and any nationalist or separatist which doesn't fit in his system will be neutralized of course not to spread that.
Anytime you can have couple thousand that can carry atrocities or go to war,tell to the people you are attacked,tell them the Serbs want to kill Croats and opposite,add couple killings here,keep that on TV everyday,you have a war.However still many people loved and love the former country,whether one agree or disagree and not all hate eachother or the country Yugoslavia itself.. Nationalist being the loudest of all of course.
There was kind of solutions offered by EU i have heard not many talk about,Yugoslavia to be reformed with EU standards and in confederation to enter the EU to avoid the mess and war,but the leaders had other things to do.
Sometimes i think that the establishment,leaders,taykuns among many others wanted this to happen,majority of this families are still on top anyway in most of the republics,they still have their businesses to do,the one who lost was the middle class which is almost non-existent today in most of the countries,the victims that died for nothing,war that brought hatred and wounds for generations which need to be overcome.
For some then was a situation and a moment to be rich and on top.
Even the present day politicians use this retorics for political points on which they collect votes on election.
In that kind of situation you will of course have a world powers which will carry their own interests in the region too.Generally it was bad for the region later on from all sides.
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1)What you want from me to elaborate, that serbs are responsabile for what happened during 90s in Yougoslav wars?
2)You don't know because you was not there, but you are sure that Romania was worse. How i have to understand this sentence?
bicicleur 2
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1) there were also reports of cruelties and ethnic cleansing committed by others like Croats and Bosnians
2) Roumenia was completely exhausted by Ceaucescu to the point that the population was at the brink of starvation, and Ceaucescu had destroyed complete villages and towns, I don't think it was that bad under Tito ; were you in Yougoslavia at the time?
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1)It's true. But you forget something that was serbs who attacked this people in their homes. And was serbs who decided the rules of the "game". Crimes are always terribile but there are causes and consequences.
We have read for example what the chief of French secret services said about the current situation in France. As a consequence of this terrorist attacks France is near a civil war. Think about what serbs did to other populations of Yougoslavia.
2)I think i was clear. Pls read again my post. I spoke for a period of time around 15-20 years after the WWII. In that period of time the communist dictature in Yougoslavia was second only to the SU during Stalin rule. And i am speaking about the situation of red terror in communist style. But you have also to take in consideration that the ethnic cleansing of Albanians and against other minorities continue during this period of time.
Later things changed.
Unfortunately deep hatred comes from religion, history but and foreign impact.
I will give here short only for Muslim - Christian. Ottoman empire since conquered Balkans ruled long in this region. During Muslim Ottoman rule one part of people in Bosnia, Albanians and Pomacs in Bulgaria converted to Islam. Yes and some other peoples but they were minor part of their nations.
Balkan Muslims were privileged, Ottoman empire was Sunni Islamic caliphate. Over time the largest part of Ottoman ruling and military forces in the Balkan consisted of Balkan Muslims, ethnic Turks were little. Unfortunately Christians were second order citizens, and during the five hundred years they were much suffered and were victims. Ottoman judge accuses and gives verdict was rule, human rights for non-Muslims didn't exist.
After battles of Balkan people for liberty and First Balkan war situation was almost different. Christian peoples, in First Balkan war Bulgarians, Greeks and Serbs, oppressed for hundred of years have won and became winners. Muslim thinkers from Balkans and Turkey think Christian people didn't respect human rights in battles for liberty. After Balkans war and World war I only Muslim territories in the Balkans where in majority ruled Muslim people were in European part of Turkey and in Albania. All other Balkan Muslims remained in Yugoslavia, Greece and Bulgaria.
What is more interesting, at time of rise of Ottoman empire and spreading in Europe privileged Balkan Muslims were wealthiest part of population of Balkans. But as Ottoman empire started to drop and became "sick man of Europe" and was losing the Balkan battles situation became different, Muslim areas were becoming poorer. After World war I the most backward areas in the Balkans were ones with Muslim majority.
And situation changed again in War World II. Greeks and Serbs were in the side Allied Powers against Axis Powers. Forces of Wehrmacht conquered Yugoslavia very fast. Muslims in Yugoslavia mostly sided with Axis powers, but one part became part of partisan movement. The parts of Yugoslavia were annexed by Germany, Italy, Hungary, Bulgaria. Most part of Serbian province Kosovo and Metohiya was annexed to Albania (as Italian protectorate), Montenegro was Italian protectorate, what left of Serbia was under German occupation, and Independent State of Croatia created as German and Italy ally. In that situation the best what could be was partisan movement, who fought against Axis powers and their domestic allies, and won
After World War II Yugoslav communists gave themselves very hard task, to develop very underdeveloped areas in SR Bosnia and Herzegovina, SR Macedonia and especially in Serbian province Kosovo and Metohiya. And large funds and investments brought positive results and progress. But communists could not solve all historical problems and tensions between religions and nations and it can be lack of communist access. Times again changed, now we have new situation with radical Islam. It is hard to say if communists could find solutions. Market economy and democracy would gave better results.
Yes LeBrok good noticed. Spain and Yugoslavia had similarities as multinational countries and countries which were in transition period after death of dictator. But Spain is country with one religion, and internal tensions were much smaller and without significant foreign impact. Yugoslavia had three religions and it seemed situation much more difficult plus foreign impact.
However, example of Yugoslavia shows that federal state is better than mini states. This is an important point. Federal state has more resources, gives more opportunities and makes life better.
VMRO1893
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European states like Great Britain, Belgium, Spain, Italy and perhaps others could also go the way of Yugoslavia if separatist regions in these states are recognized by neighboring states. The swift recognition by Germany and others of Croatia and Slovenia spelt the death of Yugoslavia. If there was a will by the West to keep it together, it would have survived.
Dinarid
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I know you would just love the idea of Yugoslavia being a superpower, but we, however, wouldn't. We always wanted freedom and independence and the right to self-determination. How dare you suggest that this was fueled by "hatred".
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I couldn't care less what you think "makes life better" and neither do any of the peoples who declared independence from Yugoslavia. You have no right to tell others how to live and infringe on our right to self-determination. Most Croats wanted independence, and we do not take kindly to anyone keeping it from us. Bosnian Croats will follow the Bosnian Serbs to brake free from the coming Bosnian Islamic sharia state. Not because of Catholic fanaticism (for the Serbs it may be Orthodox Christian fanaticism, but I wouldn't know), but because of our right to self-determination and freedom. We will never become part of some psychotic Russian project to annex the Balkan Slavs and claim it's "for our good" either. Anyone trying to bring foreign powers to the Balkans, be it the Bosnian Muslims inviting Turkey or the Serbs making overtures to Russia is up to no good.
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I wish Bosnian Croats all the best in their quest for independence from Bosnia (and union with Croatia). Herceg-Bosna should have always been a republic like Republika Srpska. You were short-changed.
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Many thanks, and we wish the same for all peoples living under the yoke of Islam. The Muslims backstabbed us after we kicked the Serbian Army out. Then the traitorous "Croatian" leaders of pro-Ustaša neo-Nazi battalions pledged allegiance to "Bosnia" and told us that unity with the Muslims was our destiny, and turned their guns on the Bosnian Croats who resisted this treason. They painted Bosnian Croat leader Mate Boban as some kind of rabid violent psycho bent on eliminating his opponents in order to consolidate personal power when in reality the Nazi thug Blaž Kraljević had it coming for his treason when he was assassinated. Then even Franjo Tuđman, the father of the Croatian state who led Bosnian Croat forces against the Muslims, capitulated to Islam and declared that Herzegovina was Bosnian (read: Islamic) land. That's how we were dragged quite reluctantly into the Dar al-Islam.
bicicleur 2
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I don't think we need federate states any more if independant states can join the EU.
Belgium has become a federal state. There are to many overlapping gevernment levels creating to high costs and absence of accountability.
There is government of the memberstates, there is Beglian government and EU government. To much. IMO Belgian state and government should dissapear (like Czech Republic and Slovakia did).
Independant states should harmonise their rules under EU flag.
I admit in Balkan it is more complicated, as you mention e.g. Croat enclave in Bosnia. Some solution is needed, but you cannot keep on splitting into ever smaller entities.
I am in favor of the EU project, it is a very good idea. It has lot of advantages.
I'm also very critical though. I think the EU is governed very bad right now. Many of the advantages of EU are destroyed by bad government.
Belgium has become a federal state. There are to many overlapping gevernment levels creating to high costs and absence of accountability.
There is government of the memberstates, there is Beglian government and EU government. To much. IMO Belgian state and government should dissapear (like Czech Republic and Slovakia did).
Independant states should harmonise their rules under EU flag.
I admit in Balkan it is more complicated, as you mention e.g. Croat enclave in Bosnia. Some solution is needed, but you cannot keep on splitting into ever smaller entities.
I am in favor of the EU project, it is a very good idea. It has lot of advantages.
I'm also very critical though. I think the EU is governed very bad right now. Many of the advantages of EU are destroyed by bad government.
Dinarid
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We will keep pushing through with independence until every people has fulfilled their right to self-determination. I am also in favor of the EU, but it should not be an "ever-closer union". European countries must maintain their independence. We shouldn't sink to the level of the Russians in terms of fascism and oppression of other peoples.
Nobody mentioned Russian federation, it does not in this analysis of British expert. For religiosity of Serbs, in time of Yugoslavia most of Serbs were atheists and today a lot of Serbs are only declarative Orthodox, or Protestant. But it has no connection with the main idea and why this article is important.
Conditions in Serbia are much different than you think. In Serbia people are convincingly for EU. Serbian parties won or lost elections because corruption and keeping the economy but almost all are for EU.
Serbs are European nation and it is natural to be for EU. Yes when we discuss about business every capital and investments are important, it is does not matter if they are Chinese, Arab, Russian etc.
Who reads between lines he or she can establish a very important point. European Union should be stronger and it should more integration.
Federal state makes life better, it gives more opportunities for individual and it is better for state, the reason is simple, it has much more resources. Small mini states have no such opportunities. And what is very important, small mini states cannot compete with giants in world scene.
It is important point. I agree with you. Anyone can read what means Dar al-Islam.
Dinarid
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I applaud the Serbs for all the reasons you mention. Again, we want no part of a federal state. I simply could'nt care less if you think it would make life "better".
Milan
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The behavior of the nationalists have always been interesting one,they do not care how they gonna live,their hobby,sport,dream,life is the imaginary picture created to them and is in their mindset.Behind every nation is a powerful myth that make them feel strong.Even though they will immigrate abroad for better life,the former still is more important to them,even the ones living abroad identify with this,some don't even know to speak their native language i have seen many of them on the internet mostly,still they are the biggest patriots,but for whom and for what? if you are willing to make worst to yourself with this and people around you.
Politicians also know this kind of mindset very good and they are good at manipulating it.
In exchange for economic progress they offer patriotism times again.Anytime there is problem,patriotism is here.
Politicians also know this kind of mindset very good and they are good at manipulating it.
In exchange for economic progress they offer patriotism times again.Anytime there is problem,patriotism is here.
bicicleur 2
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this makes me think of Putin
I think the same of Erdogan though. In the end he will ruin his country.
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Nationalism and patriotism are two different concepts. Nationalism itself is perceived differently in different countries. French nationalism is different from British nationalism. Just an example.
Milan
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The general topic here is former Yugoslavia.
It all depends how one look on a nation concept generally,to me personally Anderson explain it the best;"Imagined communities" is a concept coined by Benedict Anderson. He believes that a nation is a community socially constructed, imagined by the people who perceive themselves as part of that group. Anderson's book, Imagined Communities, in which he explains the concept in depth, was published in 1983.
To me is imagined community and political construct.
Thanks but i know the differences,here shortly from wikipedia.
Patriotism is an emotional attachment to a nation which an individual recognizes as their homeland. This attachment, also known as national feeling or national pride, can be viewed in terms of different features relating to one's own nation, including ethnic, cultural, political or historical aspects. It encompasses a set of concepts closely related to those of nationalism