Estimating the Y-DNA and autosomal admixtures of Yamnaya samples

arvistro said:
Interesting, 24000 years ago 100% ANE boy was in Irkutsk, Russia. I think ANE is actually defined as Mal'ta boy, right?
He was also R*, U*.
Now you say ANE originated/peaked in Iran or in Kurds? Karitiana folk in Brazil have 40% ANE, hmm...
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If ANE is 24000 years old and it's from Irkuts ( you should have mentioned that Irkuts is not far from Mongolia and China) than ANE is actually a Mongoloid auDNA! Is ANE Mongoloid? I think that ANE is very old, but not that old. Mal'ta boy who lived not far from Mongolia was related (distant cousin of) to the ancient ancestor of ANE. That would make sense, since humans are originally from Africa and humans in far East Asia (Mongoloid people) who are originally from Africa (like everybody) migrated into far East Asia through the Iranian Plateau. People in Irkutsk, Mogolia couldn't fly, you know. Somehow they ended up there. The question is how, and the most reasonable answer is through the Iranian Plateau! Some people went to far East Asia, but people who stayed behind in (South)Central Asia or Eastern Iranian Plateau could be responsible for ANE!
 
Sorry I meant to reply to Arvistro not Goga, I agree with Goga.

arvistro said:
Interesting, 24000 years ago 100% ANE boy was in Irkutsk, Russia. I think ANE is actually defined as Mal'ta boy, right?
He was also R*, U*.
Now you say ANE originated/peaked in Iran or in Kurds? Karitiana folk in Brazil have 40% ANE, hmm...
Click to expand...


The problem with all that is, that ANE is an invetion to describe all the European genetics that aren't a result from a combination of a Loschbour type Hunter Gatherer and an Oetzi/Stuttgart type farmer. Malta boy doesn't help with that because Europeans show basically no affinity to Malta boy other than the R DNA. This means that the R1b/R1a groups went through an extremely drastic evolution before they even reached Europe, otherwise Europeans would show some affinity to Kalash/Eskimo like Malta does. So even though Malta technically is a definition of ANE, he is too old to be helpful in determinig who this third group is.
 
Whatever you call ANE Kurds don't have much more than Finns of it. And Karintians (Brazil natives) or some Syberian folk have twice as much. So, claiming it was born or on its peak in Kurdistan/Iran is kind of....
 
Goga, you should be more conservative and open-minded when thinking through these things, and not jump to conclusions. MA-1 is 24,000 years old, and is ANE. All that is known is he was from a brother branch of WHG, and his people contributed genes to everyone in the world except Africans and east Asians. ANE is not east Asian.

Exactly what east Asian is, is unknown, so to call it mongoloid is like saying it is a pure form of ancestry, and I think we should call it east Asian because that is where it is geographically. A few years ago people thought what was call "West Eurasian" or "Caucasian" represented a pure form of ancestry. Because of ancient genomes we discovered that the reason middle easterns and Europeans are so related is because they are a mix of the same 3 distinct stone age populations, not because they descend from a single branch.
 
motzart said:
Sorry I meant to reply to Arvistro not Goga, I agree with Goga.


The problem with all that is, that ANE is an invetion to describe all the European genetics that aren't a result from a combination of a Loschbour type Hunter Gatherer and an Oetzi/Stuttgart type farmer. Malta boy doesn't help with that because Europeans show basically no affinity to Malta boy other than the R DNA. This means that the R1b/R1a groups went through an extremely drastic evolution before they even reached Europe, otherwise Europeans would show some affinity to Kalash/Eskimo like Malta does. So even though Malta technically is a definition of ANE, he is too old to be helpful in determinig who this third group is.
Click to expand...

No. Read the paper about MA1 (Mal'ta Boy) and what people such as Dienekes have to say about him. The DNA of MA1 is used as ANE, because he's related to both Europeans and Native Americans but not East Asians. So a close relative of his must have been the source of ANE in various populations. The extent to which the DNA of R1a and R1b folk still consists of ANE depends on how much their ANE ancestors mixed with other groups.
 
Robert6 said:
Well the only Caucasoid is ENF
Europoid is a mix of ENF WGH/UGH and little ANE
ANE, Mongoloid, ASE and WGH/UGH are Eurasian

Look to that Kalash girl to her nose, this nose isn't Caucasoid
http://www.manuelgago.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/kalasha.jpg

And also look to that Swedish girl(many WGH) her nose also do not have high bridge
http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs49/f/2009/233/9/d/Swedish_Girls_9_by_tronador.jpg
Click to expand...
Also look to that Lebanon girl her nose is with very high bridge
http://earabgirls.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Miss-Lebanon-2010-Rahaf-Abdallah-Hot-Pictures.jpg

And to this Cretan girl
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs19/f/2007/304/5/c/5c81e97a345f9f7c.png
 
arvistro said:
Whatever you call ANE Kurds don't have much more than Finns of it. And Karintians (Brazil natives) or some Syberian folk have twice as much. So, claiming it was born or on its peak in Kurdistan/Iran is kind of....
Click to expand...
My friend, I'm not saying that ANE has been born in Kurdistan or Iran, I'm just saying that ANE was already in Kurdistan and Iran even thousands of years before proto-Indo-Europeans ever existed. Even if ANE is originally not from the Iranian Plateau/Kurdistan, Iranian Plateau (with Kurdistan) lies between the Caucasus and SouthCentral Asia, don't you think people in between (which live actually on the Iranian Plateau) wouldn't be affected by those folks, even through a minor gene flow, for all these thousands of years ... ?
 
Krefter14 said:
Goga, you should be more conservative and open-minded when thinking through these things, and not jump to conclusions. MA-1 is 24,000 years old, and is ANE. All that is known is he was from a brother branch of WHG, and his people contributed genes to everyone in the world except Africans and east Asians. ANE is not east Asian.

Exactly what east Asian is, is unknown, so to call it mongoloid is like saying it is a pure form of ancestry, and I think we should call it east Asian because that is where it is geographically. A few years ago people thought what was call "West Eurasian" or "Caucasian" represented a pure form of ancestry. Because of ancient genomes we discovered that the reason middle easterns and Europeans are so related is because they are a mix of the same 3 distinct stone age populations, not because they descend from a single branch.
Click to expand...
I do agree with you. I think that chance that ANE was born somewhere between Central and SouthCentral Asia is very high. But I believe that ANE around the Iranian Plateau and Northern Caucasus predate and is much older than proto-Indo-Europeans...
 
Robert6 said:
Well the only Caucasoid is ENF
Europoid is a mix of ENF WGH/UGH and little ANE
ANE, Mongoloid, ASE and WGH/UGH are Eurasian

Look to that Kalash girl to her nose, this nose isn't Caucasoid
http://www.manuelgago.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/kalasha.jpg

And also look to that Swedish girl(many WGH) her nose also do not have high bridge
http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs49/f/2009/233/9/d/Swedish_Girls_9_by_tronador.jpg
Click to expand...

La Brana-1 was WHG and had Caucasoid features. Mesolithic Karelians were a mix of east Asian and WHG-ANE, and had a mix of Caucasoid and Mongoloid features. Also, Bronze age hunter gatherers in Siberia had a mix of east Asian and WHG-ANE mtDNA, and had a mix of Caucasoid and Mongoloid features. Exactly where Caucasoid features come from(could have been selected for in Middle east and Europe at different times), I think it's likely WHG had it.
 
Krefter14 said:
La Brana-1 was WHG and had Caucasoid features. Mesolithic Karelians were a mix of east Asian and WHG-ANE, and had a mix of Caucasoid and Mongoloid features. Also, Bronze age hunter gatherers in Siberia had a mix of east Asian and WHG-ANE mtDNA, and had a mix of Caucasoid and Mongoloid features. Exactly where Caucasoid features come from(could have been selected for in Middle east and Europe at different times), I think it's likely WHG had it.
Click to expand...
Look to the Skull it is a wrong reconstruction
http://www.iflscience.com/sites/www...lic/blog/[nid]/la brana man.jpg?itok=5p4llYOA
 
Robert6 said:
Well the only Caucasoid is ENF
Europoid is a mix of ENF WGH/UGH and little ANE
ANE, Mongoloid, ASE and WGH/UGH are Eurasian

Look to that Kalash girl to her nose, this nose isn't Caucasoid
http://www.manuelgago.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/kalasha.jpg

And also look to that Swedish girl(many WGH) her nose also do not have high bridge
http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs49/f/2009/233/9/d/Swedish_Girls_9_by_tronador.jpg
Click to expand...

Posting pictures of random people when trying to make inferences about a population is stupid. It maked you sound like a moron and discredits everything you have written.
 
I know, but you can't deny there are WHG-ANE remains with Caucasoid features. Physical appearance can change quickly, so there could be a complicated answer for Caucasoid features being dominate from India-Ireland-Morocco.

My nose is wide like that, and that guy could pass as Caucasoid, it's not like everyone in west Eurasia has a super thin nose.
 
Krefter14 said:
I know, but you can't deny there are WHG-ANE remains with Caucasoid features. Physical appearance can change quickly, so there could be a complicated answer for Caucasoid features being dominate from India-Ireland-Morocco.

My nose is wide like that, and that guy could pass as Caucasoid, it's not like everyone in west Eurasia has a super thin nose.
Click to expand...
I am not talking about wide or thin nose.
The nose with high bridge is something else
"Greek nose" google it, half of them have very high bridge
https://www.google.gr/search?noj=1&...msedr...0...1c.1.60.img..1.9.1617.SviqMOS6By8


Sardinian people
https://www.google.gr/search?noj=1&....msedr...0...1c.1.60.img..5.4.520.EUMoObxcSD4


compare to Swedish people
https://www.google.gr/search?noj=1&....msedr...0...1c.1.60.img..4.3.377.sAmX-AetIsc
 
Krefter14 said:
Because it wasn't in the Near east. There could have been very ANE-type people in eastern Iran. If ANE in west Asia came from Europe, we would see much more WHG in west Asia(Mesolithic Russians were as much or more WHG than ANE), if it came from south Asia, we should see much more south-Asian specific ancestry. It looks like a close to pure-ANE population or ANE+near eastern population, gave west Asians ANE.
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Right. That's why I think the Yamna was a hodgepodge of few distinct populations. West Yamna was more WHG than East Yamna. East Yamna being around Caspian Sea and beyond to the East. East part was ANE dominant and where R1a Z93 comes from, the herders, the Indo-Iranians. Originally they both came from R1a people of same culture and language, but with time grew apart, spread wide and assumed different cultural characters. West part mixed more with Cucuteni farmers and expanded into Europe, the East developed good herding and horse riding practices and expanded into rest of the Steppe and into Middle East, as Indo-Iranians.
I'm hoping to see some of Z93 in on East side of Yamna only, and Z283 on West side only. I think Z283 expanded dramatically on base of farming, and Z93 on the base of successful herding on horseback.
 
Aberdeen said:
No. Read the paper about MA1 (Mal'ta Boy) and what people such as Dienekes have to say about him. The DNA of MA1 is used as ANE, because he's related to both Europeans and Native Americans but not East Asians. So a close relative of his must have been the source of ANE in various populations. The extent to which the DNA of R1a and R1b folk still consists of ANE depends on how much their ANE ancestors mixed with other groups.
Click to expand...

The purpose of ANE as I understand it is that it is part of a 3 way model to describe modern Europeans, at least that is how the theory was presented by Lazaridis when he created it. You can't model Europeans as a 3 way mixture between Oetzi, Loschbour, and Mal'ta Boy. Yamna will be a good definition for ANE in my opinion and I think in the new paper they will be able to very accurately describe Europeans in terms of a Yamna genome, a Beaker genome, and of course the exsting WHG and EEF ones. Using Mal'ta boy is a bad fit, its like trying to model yourself as a 4 way model between your 4 grandparents, but using the existing mesolithic & neolithic genomes and Mal'ta is like using 3 grandparents and 1 guy from 24,000 years ago. I know people have tried but I don't think it has value.
 
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