Estimating the Y-DNA and autosomal admixtures of Yamnaya samples

Oetzi and Loshbour are also not exactly grandparents, right? Why is 7000 years ago cool, but 24,000 years ago not cool? Where is the limit?
 
motzart said:
The purpose of ANE as I understand it is that it is part of a 3 way model to describe modern Europeans, at least that is how the theory was presented by Lazaridis when he created it. You can't model Europeans as a 3 way mixture between Oetzi, Loschbour, and Mal'ta Boy. Yamna will be a good definition for ANE in my opinion and I think in the new paper they will be able to very accurately describe Europeans in terms of a Yamna genome, a Beaker genome, and of course the exsting WHG and EEF ones. Using Mal'ta boy is a bad fit, its like trying to model yourself as a 4 way model between your 4 grandparents, but using the existing mesolithic & neolithic genomes and Mal'ta is like using 3 grandparents and 1 guy from 24,000 years ago. I know people have tried but I don't think it has value.
Click to expand...

My point was that ANE is not an artificial construct that someone pulled out of the air, which is what I thought you were suggesting. It refers to actual data taken from a real person and, as I understand it, is part of a three way model that is being used to explain the genetic makeup of modern Europeans because that's the most useful model the experts have at the moment. It has been discussed in blogs by knowledgeable people who have suggested that the reality is probably more complicated than that, but nobody seems to have a more useful model at the moment.

We won't know the genetic makeup of IE people until results are released but some of what's been leaked suggests that they are a mixture of steppe people and Caucasian farmers so would generally be some mixture of WHG, EEF and ANE, just as many people have assumed. Although there have also been suggestions that researchers are looking for a model that doesn't include WHG, which doesn't make sense to me.
 
Sile said:
Do you really believe that Kurds , armenians and assyrians will show the same levels of ANE ?................clearly as for Haplogroup percentages , they are different.

IMO, kurds came via central asia thourgh BMC and through northern iran and settled where they are now. They brought the ANE.
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Two out of the three examples you give; only two qualify for having connections with PIE speaking people. Ar-menians and Kur-ds.
Perhaps the following two rivers were named from PIE who knows ?
Kura and Araxes river valleys are in the region of Caucasian Albania [Ardhan-Arran-Alan].
The region of Kohistan- [Persian/Mede-Western Branch] Persian: کوہستان‎ 'mountainous land'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagestan#mediaviewer/Fileagestan.png
 
Robert6 said:
Well the only Caucasoid is ENF
Europoid is a mix of ENF WGH/UGH and little ANE
ANE, Mongoloid, ASE and WGH/UGH are Eurasian

Look to that Kalash girl to her nose, this nose isn't Caucasoid
http://www.manuelgago.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/kalasha.jpg

And also look to that Swedish girl(many WGH) her nose also do not have high bridge
http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs49/f/2009/233/9/d/Swedish_Girls_9_by_tronador.jpg
Click to expand...

ANE is pred. West Eurasian. ANE is closer to other West Eurasian groups such as WHG and even ENF than East Eurasian.

ANE is between modern West Eurasians and Amerindians, that also because Amerindians are half ANE (West Eurasian like) and half East Eurasian.
 
Robert6 said:
No, the West Eurasian(WGH/UGH + ANE) is closer to East Eurasian than to ENF(Basal Eurasian)
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jlF6eSOWmnk/VFwpvCk9MjI/AAAAAAAAJ1o/lkmfDp204OU/s1600/F2.large.jpg
Click to expand...

The graph you have linked to, it shows ANE beeing direclty descend of West Eurasian upper paleolithic.

I think you are confusing basal Eurasian for West Eurasian. That is the only explanation for why you think ANE beeing between Basal Eurasian and East Asian means it is non West Eurasian.

Just for the notification basal Eurasian is not neolithic farmer. Farmer DNA itself is basal Eurasian+ H&G like DNA.
 
Alan said:
The graph you have linked to, it shows ANE beeing direclty descend of West Eurasian upper paleolithic.

I think you are confusing basal Eurasian for West Eurasian. That is the only explanation for why you think ANE beeing between Basal Eurasian and East Asian means it is non West Eurasian.

Just for the notification basal Eurasian is not neolithic farmer. Farmer DNA itself is basal Eurasian+ H&G like DNA.
Click to expand...
No,
I mean that "West Eurasian" in the graph, is not Caucasoid
for example here is North European Mesolithic http://i.imgur.com/GYwwt.jpg
GYwwt.jpg
 
Robert6 said:
No,
I mean that "West Eurasian" in the graph, is not Caucasoid
for example here is North European Mesolithic http://i.imgur.com/GYwwt.jpg
GYwwt.jpg
Click to expand...

That reconstruction is completely caucasoid in the sense that her look (minus eye and hair color) appears in all modern West Eurasian groups. Certanly she doesn't look East Eurasian.

Caucasian doesn't mean narrow nose/eyes just like East Eurasian doesn't mean broad nose/eyes. Or do you think this Japanese is Caucasian?
gl-coshu.jpg
 
Alan said:
Caucasian doesn't mean narrow nose/eyes just like East Eurasian doesn't mean broad nose/eyes. Or do you think this Japanese is Caucasian?
gl-coshu.jpg
Click to expand...

Yakonid Japanese


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/Oda_Nobunaga-Portrait_by_Giovanni_NIcolao.jpg

http://www.jacar.go.jp/english/nichiro/img3/mutsu.jpg


Yakonid Japanese and Ainu(North Japan) possibly are partly Basal Eurasians
Possibly also there is trace of Basal Eurasian among Melanesians and Polynesians


Many "Basal Eurasian" is in eastern Africa.


Not all who have "East Eurasian" are Mongoloid
Also not all who have "Basal Eurasian" are Caucasoid.


Caucasoid is only a part of "Basal Eurasian"
Mongloid is only a part of "East Eurasian"


Europoid/Caucasian is a mix of Caucasoid + West Eurasian

Alan said:
That reconstruction is completely caucasoid in the sense that her look (minus eye and hair color) appears in all modern West Eurasian groups. Certanly she doesn't look East Eurasian.
Click to expand...
She is close to Europoids/Caucasians becauce her people are partly ancestors of Europoids/Caucasians.
But pure "West Eurasians" are closer to East Eurasians than to "Basal Eurasian"
 
Robert6:No, the West Eurasian(WGH/UGH + ANE) is closer to East Eurasian than to ENF(Basal Eurasian)
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jlF6eSOWmn...0/F2.large.jpg
Click to expand...

I do see what you're getting at based on the graph as both West and East Eurasian seem to come from a separate non-African branch. Here is the Lazaridis et al visual for comparison:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YbYK8NzQNAY/UrihRsR5eSI/AAAAAAAAJbo/TYynaV4cO4Y/s1600/model.png

As has already been pointed out, ENF is not equivalent to "Basal Eurasian" however that will ultimately be defined. (Also, although I know I'm being pedantic here, the following is not precisely correct: "Farmer DNA itself is basal Eurasian+ H&G like DNA". All of them were hunter gatherers initially, including the "Basal Eurasian" group. )

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that in a three way division of humanity, Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and SSA, "Basal Eurasian" is the "component" most closely related to "Caucasoid", and since "Basal" is in ENF rather than in WHG or ANE, "ENF" can stand for Caucasoid. (Just as an aside, you do all realize that we don't have an actual early Neolithic farmer from the Near East for comparison, yes?)

Well, the old anthropologists thought that area of the world was the source for "Caucasoids", hence their choice of the name. Quite an irony that they should turn out to be so closely related to the people of the Middle East.

As a point of interest, where do you think "Basal" was geographically at different stages?

Ed. to add link and for grammar.
 
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Robert6 said:
Yakonid Japanese


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/Oda_Nobunaga-Portrait_by_Giovanni_NIcolao.jpg

http://www.jacar.go.jp/english/nichiro/img3/mutsu.jpg


Yakonid Japanese and Ainu(North Japan) possibly are partly Basal Eurasians
Possibly also there is trace of Basal Eurasian among Melanesians and Polynesians


Many "Basal Eurasian" is in eastern Africa.


Not all who have "East Eurasian" are Mongoloid
Also not all who have "Basal Eurasian" are Caucasoid.


Caucasoid is only a part of "Basal Eurasian"
Mongloid is only a part of "East Eurasian"


Europoid/Caucasian is a mix of Caucasoid + West Eurasian


She is close to Europoids/Caucasians becauce her people are partly ancestors of Europoids/Caucasians.
But pure "West Eurasians" are closer to East Eurasians than to "Basal Eurasian"
Click to expand...

Ainu are genetically close to 100% East Eurasian and even this is a confirmation for my claim that phenotype does not equal genotype entirely. So a broad nosed, broad faced West Eurasian is still no East Eurasian such as a narrow nosed/eyed East Eurasian is not a West Eurasian.
 
Silesian said:
Two out of the three examples you give; only two qualify for having connections with PIE speaking people. Ar-menians and Kur-ds.
Perhaps the following two rivers were named from PIE who knows ?
Kura and Araxes river valleys are in the region of Caucasian Albania [Ardhan-Arran-Alan].
The region of Kohistan- [Persian/Mede-Western Branch] Persian: کوہستان‎ 'mountainous land'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagestan#mediaviewer/Fileagestan.png
Click to expand...

My issue is ...if assyrians and armenians are suppose to be similar, then how did the kurds arrive where they reside now , late in time or where they there first.

Note that according to herodotus and strabo, the areas between the caspian and aral seas ( modern turkmenistan and uzbekistan ) where under water. There was no immigrational avenue . So either the kurds came via eastern persia or from yamnaya northern caucasus
 
Sile said:
So either the kurds came via eastern persia or from yamnaya northern caucasus
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It has been told by many that Kurdish (Mitanni, Medes/Mada) race was born around the Lake Urmia. Other name for Lake Urmia is Lake Matiene. And Matiene is another name for Mitanni, Medes or Mada. Mitanni, Mede (Mada), Kassites and other ancient Iranic peoples that called themselves Aryans came from this place. Lake Urmia or Lake Matiene is in the Zagros Mountains and is located at the center / heart of Kurdistan. Lake Matiene is not located in Yamnaya Horizon, nor in BMAC. Neither Assyrians, nor Armenians are from the Zagos Mountains, the Urmia (Matiene) Area. Lake Urmia = birthplace and homeland of Mitanni & Medes/Mada. Kurds are natives to the NorthWestern Zagros Mountains = END, case solved.
 
Alan said:
Ainu are genetically close to 100% East Eurasian and even this is a confirmation for my claim that phenotype does not equal genotype entirely. So a broad nosed, broad faced West Eurasian is still no East Eurasian such as a narrow nosed/eyed East Eurasian is not a West Eurasian.
Click to expand...
I do not doubt that Ainu are 100% East Asian.
But what about more ancient components?
How many "Basal Eurasian" (or yet unknown Pre-"Basal Eurasian") , EGH, ASI, etc do they have?
 
Angela said:
As has already been pointed out, ENF is not equivalent to "Basal Eurasian" however that will ultimately be defined. (Also, although I know I'm being pedantic here, the following is not precisely correct: "Farmer DNA itself is basal Eurasian+ H&G like DNA". All of them were hunter gatherers initially, including the "Basal Eurasian" group. )
Click to expand...
Yes ENF is not the only "Basal Eurasian", also some "Basal Eurasian" as you know was in Paleolithic west Russia.

Angela said:
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that in a three way division of humanity, Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and SSA, "Basal Eurasian" is the "component" most closely related to "Caucasoid", and since "Basal" is in ENF rather than in WHG or ANE, "ENF" can stand for Caucasoid.
Click to expand...
I think that "Basal Eurasian" is more than just ENF, and also older than ENF.
So only the ENF is Caucasoid, and Caucasoid is a branch of those who had "Basal Eurasian" in the Paleolithic era.

Angela said:
(Just as an aside, you do all realize that we don't have an actual early Neolithic farmer from the Near East for comparison, yes?)
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We don't, but in calculators the ENF is more among Druze Sicilians and Saudis than among EEF(Early European Farmers).


Angela said:
As a point of interest, where do you think "Basal" was geographically?
Click to expand...
S.W. Asia and W.Asia
 
My guess is that among those 7 males of Yamnaya there will be
N1c (or some other N)
R1a
C or some other "strange" Y Haplos
and G
 
and I forgot there will be R1b, too
 
Dagne said:
My guess is that among those 7 males of Yamnaya there will be
N1c (or some other N)
R1a
C or some other "strange" Y Haplos
and G
Click to expand...

My guess is that N1c hadn't crossed the Urals at that point and that C was always rare, so the "Russian hunter gatherer" component was likely all R1a. The "Armenian" component would have included J2 and G, and possibly but not necessarily R1b.
 
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