Politics EU Marshall Plan for Europe 2020

I second what Angela said about you, Dagne. :)

Once again I completely concur with what you wrote about what the new Marshall Plan should take that into consideration.
 
I totally agree with your suggestions Dagne. We need to rethink globalization and dependency on China. It takes a lot of energy to get those products from China to their destinations and it leaves vulnerable to disruptions. Locally gown foods, we definitely need to do that. There is no reason for my broccoli to come from California 2500 miles away. There are plenty of cows and chickens in Florida, we don't need them to come from Arkansas. Florida should not pave its farms for retirement subdivisions.
 
@ dagne

neither me, neither you took factory's from Europe and send them to china,
 
Maciamo said:
I second what Angela said about you, Dagne. :)

Once again I completely concur with what you wrote about what the new Marshall Plan should take that into consideration.
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:smile:
Let's hope there are more people among the EU decisions makes who have similar thoughts.
 
Yetos said:
@ dagne

neither me, neither you took factory's from Europe and send them to china,
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Moving factories just for profit reasons where labour force is cheap and could be treated badly (like in China) is bad. It is the same old story then corporations want to maximise their profit at the expense of others - either people's health (food industry), environment (cheap consumer production oversees), quality, and now - as we can see - health care system's security.

On the other hand, strategic coordinated division of expertise could be good - the whole issue of globalisation in different sectors should be carefully analysed.

For instance, sharing information, having open digital sources, internet search engines, youtube - these are such great opportunities that we have - for learning languages, seeing films, art, science - anything, posting information online - like do we do here on Eupedia - this is all great.
For instance, I can't wait until greedy banks are replaced by cheap blockchain solutions in Lithuania.
 
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yes dagne,

before 25 years all Europe had Swedish (EU made) Erickson and Finish (EU made) Nokia
at the end, Today Nokia is made in India, and Erickson ended to SONY.
Smart phones brought Apple and iPhone in the begin,
Half Europeans have iPhone today, which is made in China,
we made China, and now we curse them,
 
Yetos said:
yes dagne,

before 25 years all Europe had Swedish (EU made) Erickson and Finish (EU made) Nokia
at the end, Today Nokia is made in India, and Erickson ended to SONY.
Smart phones brought Apple and iPhone in the begin,
Half Europeans have iPhone today, which is made in China,
we made China, and now we curse them,
Click to expand...

for 10 years consumers took the benefit of this
now they are faced with some downsides

it is not all black and white either
2 years ago Belgian politicians blocked the takeover of the Belgian elctricity grid by Chinese investors because they would take 'all the know how'
as if the Chinese don't know how to manage their own electricity grid yet
the truth is that the Belgian electricity grid has a monopoly and many politicians have very lucrative seats in the board of the electricity distribution companies

sometimes our own politicians are as corrupt as the Chinese
 
Yetos said:
Smart phones brought Apple and iPhone in the begin,
Half Europeans have iPhone today, which is made in China,
we made China, and now we curse them,
Click to expand...

Actually iPhone's market share is only 27% in Europe, against 72% for Android. Apple's best market in Europe are the UK, Ireland and Norway.
 
In this situation when everything is made in China we need

1) free and open China where Chinese workers are protected similarly like in Europeans (the current trend of 996 working hour systems really overuses people) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system)

2) reduce radically our own consumerism and ban the use of unethically made products

As a result everything made in China will become more expensive, but that's good if we wanted to reduce consumerism and move the production of strategically important goods out of China.

In any case, if Europe wants to be safe and act ethically, people have to make sacrifices in terms of their usual lifestyles (in terms food, fashion - clothing, gadgets, etc)
 
The current economic model is rather faulty - somehow everyone believes that growth is good and recession is bad.

However, all this increase in practical terms is not always good. Growth with regard to some developments may be very good, however majority of GDP growth, like in China, is about massive expansion/production of goods that will be replaced due to fashion or disposed otherwise.

I somehow hope that his corona crisis can break the spine of this "overuse" - "overconsume" model.

Perhaps China awakens - in terms of going back to its culture, developing spiritually, instead of just being CCP lead global factory for everything.
 
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China is not a case on it's own.
Do you have any idea how many people around the world are desperate just to make a living for themselves and their family?
All those employed in Europe and complaining about their job are obviously not. They have no clue. They see only their own small world.
 
I guess the Dutch are getting a 'calvinistic scroodge' image by now.
IMO it's important to show solidarity within the EU especial in these times. That's besides humanitarian also in the economic self intrest of the Dutch.
The questions stays how fare reaching this must be. That's a legitimate question.
But I don't follow the people that are mostly 'right wing' and follow the lesson of Friedman c.s....reduce the public debt!! .The Dutch government has followed this lesson to the max. And now some of those same 'right wingers' are blaming the Dutch government for it....?
 
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Coronavirus epidemic is an emergency situation similar to a war. I don't think economic reasoning under business as usual light can be used in situations like this. Even Friedman himself would agree to this.

it would be possible to successfully fight against the enemy by joining the forces, because enemy attacks the countries one by one - basically help is needed during the peak periods, when the health care system is overloaded. I think doctors from different countries would be willing to go on such missions, especially if it were organised on voluntarily basis, providing staff with serious bonuses. The leadership in initiating and organising such missions is missing.

I even looked at the website page of "Doctors Without Borders" if they were doing something in the line. But no.
 
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European Commission's measures include:
  • Ensure the adequate supply of protective equipment and medical supplies across Europe;
  • Cushion the blow for people’s livelihoods and the economy by applying full flexibility of EU fiscal rules;
  • Set up a EUR 37 billion Coronavirus Response Investment Initiative to provide liquidity to small businesses and the health care sector.
  • Provide a coherent set of guidelines to Member States on border measures to protect citizens’ health while allowing the free flow of essential goods
  • Restrict temporarily non-essential travel to the European Union

To my mind it is too little. Of course, better than nothing, but why not to organise actual medical teams, when they are really needed in Spain/Italy now, and perhaps other countries, within a month or so, too. Besides, joint research team could also do better in modelling the situation in different countries. National medical associations, epidemiologists could indicate the kind of practical help needed as well as overarching horizontal cooperation.

Some countries, perhaps, will do fine, because they were initially less connected or put the quarantine measures soon enough. Sweden is a special case - they think their people can keep the distancing without too much restrictions on economy and schooling. Scientifically, it would be very interesting to collect the data and compare developments in different countries so that best containment measures could be developed for the future. There is a lot of space for action for the EU.
 
Dagne said:
Coronavirus epidemic is an emergency situation similar to a war. I don't think economic reasoning under business as usual light can be used in situations like this. Even Friedman himself would agree to this.it would be possible to successfully fight against the enemy by joining the forces, because enemy attacks the countries one by one - basically help is needed during the peak periods, when the health care system is overloaded. I think doctors from different countries would be willing to go on such missions, especially if it were organised on voluntarily basis, providing staff with serious bonuses. The leadership in initiating and organising such mission is missing.I even looked at the website page of "Doctors Without Borders" if they were doing something in the line. But no.
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Yes indeed in such situations as said within the EU we must show solidarity. Here on Eupedia I stated that we must join forces to get the serum etc etc. Nevertheless as we are confronted with years of sclerosis.... EU skeptics prevailed.....you can't blame the EU as such to not take enough actions.
The nations are first at stake now. And all are facing isn some sense the same but also other kind of problems. And I see that within limits there is solidarity. Dutch people are going to IC in Germany. We come near ic system overload. That's first of all national responsibility. We can't export all our 'problems' to the Germans!
A situation with flying borderless doctors is a nice ideal, but may it's may soberness we have to deal with the situation that is right in our face! And our leaders have to stand up as well and homely they jump across their own shadow. But they stay humans Dagne....all imperfect.
 
The good news : We all worry this time. Many goverments (and people) speak about war now, but they dont respond as such, -Or maybe they do?
It will be interesting since the global scientific institutes, laboratories and companies of a lot of different sectors, struggle imtensive for the medicine, the tests and the medical supplies. That not only is prommising as a hope , but it is the first step to move on. (-Roger...)


A lot of this " Marshall Plan" will be judged up on this field. -Will be the companies coorporate; or an unethical antagonism will prevail?
For the moment is quite reliefing that at least from the academic community there is relativelly agreement, until now I believe.
I expect and wish the same for the goverment and companies allthough occasionally they blur their role...
Goverments should be goverments and Business should be bussiness. A good businessman is not necessary a man of politics, and vice versa.
For the case of the bad-men, usually... They condemned to lost in deep oblivion from the history of co-existence (the lucky ones). Or their names are
synonymous to recall us the remembrance of a "Chimp" that shouts inside us.(humans).

The "Marshall plan" should be THE strategic plan. Which our strategy first will and must be the recovery (sic) of the public health.
That's what the urgent situation demands.
 
The bad news; At the moment we haven;t got enough masks to hide our hypocrisy.


I am afraid this time Nemesis will follow.
 
Dagne said:
In this situation when everything is made in China we need

1) free and open China where Chinese workers are protected similarly like in Europeans (the current trend of 996 working hour systems really overuses people) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system)

2) reduce radically our own consumerism and ban the use of unethically made products

As a result everything made in China will become more expensive, but that's good if we wanted to reduce consumerism and move the production of strategically important goods out of China.

In any case, if Europe wants to be safe and act ethically, people have to make sacrifices in terms of their usual lifestyles (in terms food, fashion - clothing, gadgets, etc)
Click to expand...

The world wide populace strikes 20 plus years ago in very many nations to stop Globalization have proven to be correct......when a nation fails to produce anything it is heading into a "slave" nation ...........a nation too reliant on another
 
Northener said:
I guess the Dutch are getting a 'calvinistic scroodge' image by now.
IMO it's important to show solidarity within the EU especial in these times. That's besides humanitarian also in the economic self intrest of the Dutch.
The questions stays how fare reaching this must be. That's a legitimate question.
But I don't follow the people that are mostly 'right wing' and follow the lesson of Friedman c.s....reduce the public debt!! .The Dutch government has followed this lesson to the max. And now some of those same 'right wingers' are blaming the Dutch government for it....?
Click to expand...

Thank's for that. In turbulant times it seems everything lost their meaning. It is not surprize me, that actually it is no clear anymore what ιs Left
and what is Right. That is a great indication that something is on crisis...
I believe that Europe struggle to find a balance between the british empirism, the french rationalism and the german idealism, as someone said.
At this moments, I personally have only trust, the greek doctors, medics personnel... and God help us, because Allah ran out of "pilaf".


The "identistits; (spell it right;) kinda alike political movement, which seem very upgraded at many countries, are at the top of hypocrisity level.
The faulse and utopic option of a wrong patriotism...
 
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