European Races

[Dorianfinder]

European Racial Types according to Ripley
Alpine (Celtic): Round Head - Broad Face - Light Chestnut Hair - Hazel or Gray Medium Eyes - Stocky Variable Stature

Mediterranean: Long Head - Long Face - Dark Brown or Black Hair - Dark Medium Eyes - Slender Stature

Nordic/Scandinavian/Teutonic: Long Head - Long Face - Very Light Hair - Blue Eyes - Tall Narrow Stature

 

[Knovas]

Sorry, but this classification it's quite inaccurate. There are more detailed ways to clasify, as for example this website: http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/index2.htm

It looks quite nordicist in my eyes in some aspects, but I think it's a substantial improve.

According to the one you posted, I'm predominantly Alpine, just with Dark Brown hair (Mediterranean). However, my best definition I think it's Atlanto-Med:

1.75, dark brown hair as I mentioned, very fair skin and blue eyes. Some of my facial traits, as the nose, lips or ears, are probably typical Mediterranean, but the Atlantic impact it's very strong.

I'll select Alpine, but I think we must consider other groups as I said.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

The map posted is filled with inaccuracies and has little relevance today. The appropriate thing to do is use the recently produced autosomal DNA maps.

Personally, I'm Celtic with mainly Atlantid and CM characteristics.

 

[Knovas]

You know, it's the typical 19-20th century map XD

Iberia has a huge Celtic impact already proved in admixture analysis. I agree that with autosomal DNA we'll obtain maps, by far, more accurate than this one. Euroegenes is actually better than Dodecad to do so, since focusses more in European groups.

 

[Dorianfinder]

You know, it's the typical 19-20th century map XD

Iberia has a huge Celtic impact already proved in admixture analysis. I agree that with autosomal DNA we'll obtain maps, by far, more accurate than this one. Euroegenes is actually better than Dodecad to do so, since focusses more in European groups.

I posted the above map as it's author Madison Grant proposed in his book, 'The Passing of the Great Race' (1916) that Alpine peoples are the most populous of European and West Asian races. The above poll is to verify or disprove this theory of his.

 

[Knovas]

I see Dorian. Well, it's not bad, the problem is that it's too general. Of course in general terms he was probably right about Alpines/Celts. However, the Iberian side it's completely wrong, since Celtic/Proto-Celtic peoples had a huge impact there.

 

[Dorianfinder]

I see Dorian. Well, it's not bad, the problem is that it's too general. Of course in general terms he was probably right about Alpines/Celts. However, the Iberian side it's completely wrong, since Celtic/Proto-Celtic peoples had a huge impact there.

Madison Grant goes on to say exactly what you state above, and displays the following map to elaborate.

 

[Knovas]

This one looks better. It's easy to infer that Iberia is Atlanto-Med with some kind of Germanic/Ancient Northeast Euro influence.

Another thing I'm not agree is atributing blue eyes only to Nordics according to the descriptions. Blue eyes are quite present among Celtic nations, not necesarily must be hazel/gray. For this reason I did not consider myself as part Nordic, although I reported some low scores on admixture. The vast majority I got was North Atlantic followed by Southern+Western Euro.

PD: I supose in this map Celtics are represented in the Continental Nordics group, just a difference that must be considered.

 

[Dorianfinder]

This one looks better. It's easy to infer that Iberia is Atlanto-Med with some kind of Germanic/Ancient Northeast Euro influence.

Another thing I'm not agree is atributing blue eyes only to Nordics according to the descriptions. Blue eyes are quite present among Celtic nations, not necesarily must be hazel/gray. For this reason I did not consider myself as part Nordic, although I reported some low scores on admixture. The vast majority I got was North Atlantic followed by Southern+Western Euro.

Eye-color is not a good indication of genetic admixture as there are other reasons that may effect eye-color. I would vote based on general characteristics and what most people would vote if they had to classify me into one of the three groups. Anything resembling either a stocky stature and/or a larger cephalic index is usually a good indicator of Alpine admixture. Skin and eye pigment should only be considered in light of stature and other structural characteristics.

PD: I supose in this map Celtics are represented in the Continental Nordics group, just a difference that must be considered.

That's right, the Continental Nordic group has slightly different phenotype to the more Eastern Nordic-Alpine Slavic.

 

[Maciamo]

It's intriguing that there are few clear correlations between these phenotypes and haplogroup frequencies. The only obvious correlations are :

- Nordic with I1 and I2b
- Alpine with I2a2
- Mediterranean with E1b1b and I2a1

R1b, G2a, J1 and J2 don't correlate with any one group. R1a is Alpine on the first map, but Continental Nordic on the other two.

It's understandable that haplogroup I has the biggest impact on phenotypes, if it was the first lineage in Europe, because it would mean that their autosomes were passed on to future generations more than other Y-haplogroups, probably because male lineages die out little by little in battles with newcomers but female lineages always survive. If that is the reason we see a correlation between haplogroup I and major phenotypes, it would also mean that E1b1b was also one of the oldest lineages to settle in Mediterranean Europe. That would explain why there is much unexplained E1b1b in Northwest Iberia, and why both E1b1b and I2a in Iberia, Italy and Greece appear to be autosomally South European (Mediterranean in the Dodecad admixtures) and not North African, Southwest Asian or West Asian. This is important because it means that Paleolithic Europeans (Cro-Magnons) would have belonged to both I and E1b1b.

Note that the Welsh are classified as Mediterranean, and North Wales has been reported as having a sizeable percentage of E1b1b.

 

[Knovas]

That makes sense, However, I2a1 it's too western not just Mediterranean, but it's very diffcult to think in a haplogroup representing the Eastern Mediterranean side (in my opinion the true phenotypical Mediterraneans). The best aproximation are probably ancient Greek sculptures to make an idea.

J2b subclade I think is the most Mediterranean haplogroup. I don't have a better idea for a Southeastern Mediterranean haplogroup, wich is not that clear to be linked to the Near East as clade.

 

[Maciamo]

J2b subclade I think is the most Mediterranean haplogroup. I don't have a better idea for a Southeastern Mediterranean haplogroup, wich is not that clear to be linked to the Near East as clade.

J2b peaks in Albania-Macedonia and Anatolia, which are Alpine regions on the map.

 

[Knovas]

Greece has substantial too, and not all maps show it as Alpine, but It's true the other regions are according to the data. Perhaps the Alipinid influence must be atributed to toher haplogroups, not J2b. Italy must have quite J2b too (and not much I2a1), and appears very Mediterranean.

 

[Dorianfinder]

It's intriguing that there are few clear correlations between these phenotypes and haplogroup frequencies. The only obvious correlations are :

- Nordic with I1 and I2b
- Alpine with I2a2
- Mediterranean with E1b1b and I2a1

Both I2a1 and E1b-V13 could be classified as Mediterranean. Another Alpine group introduced on a different timescale and along a southeast to west-central trajectory is G2. The above maps suggest that R1b may have a specific Nordic subgroup of its own and R1a an Alpine subgroup. Interestingly, if we consider the general lack of I2a2 in the Greek Alps, the Greek Alpine haplogroup may well be R1a. Subsequently, R1a may have a small but significant early-European component.

The map appears to infer that Alpine R1b-U152 is part of the diffusion of the Continental Nordic/Teutonic group into south-central Europe.

 

[Wilhelm]

This racial notions are ridiculous. For example the so-called mediterranean race, when we know with genetic distances, that a spaniard can be genetically closer to a German or Birtish than to a Greek or Cypriot

 

[sparkey]

The map does seem too out-of-date to be all that useful, although it does show some interesting correlations, like that Welsh people have an oddly Southern European look to them. I don't think we should be classifying ourselves based on it.

My ancestors come from places that are marked with all three... if I were to rank them, it'd be something like Nordic = Mediterranean > Alpine, although phenotypically, I think I match Alpine > Nordic > Mediterranean.

 

[Knovas]

As I said, that's too general and it only focusses, specially, on skull shape. It's likely that most Spaniards could have long head and long face (Med) but if you read, the difference is not so huge between Mediterranean and Nordic (except for light traits and stature).

For this reason I posted the other link, with more concrete classifications. For example I have round head and broad face, and with very fair skin and blue eyes the Celtic impact it's clearly dominant according to this. But I also considered the shape of my lips, nose, and ears, as typical Mediterranean (some characteristics it seems the authors forgot and must be considered in my opinion).

 

[spongetaro]

I really wonder what does Alpine-Laponoid (8) mean on this map:

 

[Dorianfinder]

As I said, that's too general and it only focusses, specially, on skull shape. It's likely that most Spaniards could have long head and long face (Med) but if you read, the difference is not so huge between Mediterranean and Nordic (except for light traits and stature).

For this reason I posted the other link, with more concrete classifications. For example I have round head and broad face, and with very fair skin and blue eyes the Celtic impact it's clearly dominant according to this. But I also considered the shape of my lips, nose, and ears, as typical Mediterranean (some characteristics it seems the authors forgot and must be considered in my opinion).

Judging from your description above you sound sub-Nordic with Mediterranean features. The link you posted was Nordic-centric and classifies the various admixtures of Alpine and Slavic in terms of Nordic pre-IE. I found some of the photos of celebrities rather amusing. The problem comes in when one tries to differentiate a Slavic 'round head' and 'broad face' with lets say a Celtic (Alpine) 'round head' and 'broad face'. I see they use the term Baltid to denote Northeastern.

 

[Dorianfinder]

I really wonder what does Alpine-Laponoid (8) mean on this map:

Laponoid refers to the physical phenotypes characteristic of the Laplanders or Sami. They regard their homeland to be the northern extremity of Europe however it is reasonable to believe that they ventured south and brought these characteristics with them.

Laponoid cranial features were considered to be 21% Tlatilco and approximately 32% Cerro by Wiercinski.