First Genomes from Ancient Egypt

[IronSide]

I'm also interested in this. If it isn't too far off-topic, have you taken a look at the Taforalt paper? The ADMIXTURE analysis suggests that the African admixture in Natufian, Iran_Hotu/Iran_Neo and so forth is related to a component that is modal in the Hadza. A very unlikely source, but it looks quite solid. It's even more pronounced in the Taforalt samples and still very significant in modern Berbers, while in the Levant/Europe it seems to be reduced relative to ancient samples. The 'Hadza Component' is also what differentiates Dinka from West Africans.

Unfortunately, I haven't, many times ADMIXTURE detected African related components in Natufians and Levant Neolithic, that would definitely explain haplogroup E, but then came the Lazaridis paper.

No evidence for admixture related to sub-Saharan Africans in
Natufians. We computed the statistic f4(Natufian, Other Ancient; African, Chimp) varying African to be
Mbuti, Yoruba, Ju_hoan_North, or the ancient Mota individual. Gene flow between Natufians and
African populations would be expected to bias these statistics positive. However, we find most of
them to be negative in sign and all of them to be non-significant (|Z|<3), providing no evidence that
Natufians differ from other ancient samples with respect to African populations.

The Natufians don't share more alleles with (Mbuti - Yoruba - Ju_hoan_North - Mota) than the amount the EHG or WHG shares, which is null.

this f4 test f4(Natufian, Other Ancient; African, Chimp) tests whether the population African shares alleles with the Natufians that Other Ancient and Chimp don't, if yes it would be positive, but it wasn't. see the bolded statement above.

 

[IronSide]

Interesting puzzle, why would they have Hadza like admixture ?

 

[markozd]

Unfortunately, I haven't, many times ADMIXTURE detected African related components in Natufians and Levant Neolithic, that would definitely explain haplogroup E, but then came the Lazaridis paper.



The Natufians don't share more alleles with (Mbuti - Yoruba - Ju_hoan_North - Mota) than the amount the EHG or WHG shares, which is null.

this f4 test f4(Natufian, Other Ancient; African, Chimp) tests whether the population African shares alleles with the Natufians that Other Ancient and Chimp don't, if yes it would be positive, but it wasn't. see the bolded statement above.

I had looked at this, but I think I didn't notice that Lazaridis also used Mota as an outgroup, which should according to the analysis above have the Hadza component. This is very confusing.

I find it quite difficult to fully understand intra-African diversity to be honest. What causes the Hadza to have such an unusual position in the PCA relative to South & West Africans? Based on haplotypes I'd exclude recent Eurasian admixture.

 

[IronSide]

I had looked at this, but I think I didn't notice that Lazaridis also used Mota as an outgroup, which should according to the analysis above have the Hadza component. This is very confusing.

I find it quite difficult to fully understand intra-African diversity to be honest. What causes the Hadza to have such an unusual position in the PCA relative to South & West Africans? Based on haplotypes I'd exclude recent Eurasian admixture.

Maybe pure Basal Eurasians admixed into them, but then the Natufians and Iran_N would share ancestry with them more than the EHG for example, but they don't. a puzzle indeed.

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

Look at the autosomal admixture models of modern Copts compared to Nakht-ankh an ancient Egyptian mummy from 1879 BC, Middle Kingdom central Egypt.

The Tomb of Two Brothers is an ancient sepulchre in Deir Rifeh, Egypt. It contains the chamber tomb of the ancient Egyptian high status priests Nakht-Ankh and Khnum-Nakht, which dates from the 12th Dynasty.

The mummy has less a bit less African admix than modern Egyptians but more than Copts but the % differences are very small, they are pretty similar. I would guess that the more south you went to ancient Egypt the more African admix they had.

The coordinates of Nakht-Ankh are converted from K13 to G25. The mummy is from Central Egypt. People on anthrogenica uploaded the raw DNA data from a study and they converted them to a form that is usable on gedmatch.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?21920-Autosomal-of-Egyptian-pharaohs/page10

Egyptian_1879bc:Nakht-Ankh,0.0012,0.129,-0.044,-0.0965,-0.0031,-0.0534,-0.017,-0.0078,0.0551,-0.0049,0.0138,-0.0172,0.0306,-0.0015,0.0069,-0.0072,-0.0111,0.0053,-0.004,0.0042,-0.0012,0.0046,-0.0078,0.0026,-0.0013

a

 

[Wanderer]

I looked up a video and they are good compelling arguements on why these dna samples rre not representative of the majority of egyptians

He talks about the dna at 31:30

This video talks about the origins and evidence.

https://youtu.be/QVKuQBrkjrA


His specific video on the study

Also when looking at the data of the mummies only 1 of the mummies are older than 1000BC with a majority being near 500 BC and younger.
And its no where near the nakada culture sites and is the far north western area of egypt.


I personally believe the origin of egypt came from horners and nilotes. But as they spread north they mixed with more west eurasian people after sometime.

We know this because of all the Ydna tested for mummies they are come back as haplogroups common in africa but not for europe. And r1b is not determined to be european r1b found today. Its very likely a deriviative of Chadic R1b-v88 subclades.

Ancient Egyptians would have been like afar, eriteans, beja, somalians, oromo ect peoples.

Northern egyptians would have more west eurasian then the southern ones near land.

 

[Wanderer]

They look like the depictions of ancient egyptians on the narmar plaque

 

[Leopoldo Leone]

I looked up a video and they are good compelling arguements on why these dna samples. Are not representative of the majority of egyptians

He talks about the dna at 31:30

This video talks about the origins and evidence.

https://youtu.be/QVKuQBrkjrA




His specific video on the study

Also when looking at the data of the mummies only 1 of the mummies are older than 1000BC with a majority being near 500 BC and younger.
And its no where near the nakada culture sites and is the far north western area of egypt.


I personally believe the origin of egypt came from horners and nilotes. But as they spread north they mixed with more west eurasian people after sometime.

We know this because of all the Ydna tested for mummies they are come back as haplogroups common in africa but not for europe. And r1b is not determined to be european r1b found today. Its very likely a deriviative of Chadic R1b-v88 subclades.

Ancient Egyptians would have been like afar, eriteans, beja, somalians, oromo ect peoples.

Northern egyptians would have more west eurasian then the southern ones near land.






Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

No, the video is a mere heaping of delusional points by a pathetic afrocentrist, these "very good compelling arguments" are sheer nonsense, debunkable by any one with a iota of historical knowledge.

I've skipped to the 30.00 minute time mark and the narrator said that the ancient Greeks described ancient Egyptians as "black" while a clip of black panther was playing: I'd believe it was a far-right parody of afrocentrism if I didn't know it is a genuine attempt at proving they wuz kangz. Anyway, ancient Greeks didn't refer to them as "black", for μελανοχρωος meant "dark-skinned", that's why it was said that both Egyptians and Ethiopians were μελανοχρωοι, that is both dark-skinned, one brown and the other black, not that they were both black.
As for the other nonsense, we knew that along the Nile many nations of different "racial" make-up lived, but not every one was Egyptian and "Egypt" as meaning the land inhabited by ethnic Egyptians was the Nile up to the first cataract, in which western Eurasian populations with minor subsaharan contribution lived, as it can be seen in the way they represented themselves in art as distinct from the Nubians further down the Nile.
I am tired of seeing such load of BS even on this site.

 

[Hawk]

No, the video is a mere heaping of delusional points by a pathetic afrocentrist, these "very good compelling arguments" are sheer nonsense, debunkable by any one with a iota of historical knowledge.

I've skipped to the 30.00 minute time mark and the narrator said that the ancient Greeks described ancient Egyptians as "black" while a clip of black panther was playing: I'd believe it was a far-right parody of afrocentrism if I didn't know it is a genuine attempt at proving they wuz kangz. Anyway, ancient Greeks didn't refer to them as "black", for μελανοχρωος meant "dark-skinned", that's why it was said that both Egyptians and Ethiopians were μελανοχρωοι, that is both dark-skinned, one brown and the other black, not that they were both black.
As for the other nonsense, we knew that along the Nile many nations of different "racial" make-up lived, but not every one was Egyptian and "Egypt" as meaning the land inhabited by ethnic Egyptians was the Nile up to the first cataract, in which western Eurasian populations with minor subsaharan contribution lived, as it can be seen in the way they represented themselves in art as distinct from the Nubians further down the Nile.
I am tired of seeing such load of BS even on this site.

Based on some leaks most of Old Kingdom Egyptians were E-M35 with some J1.

So, Ancient Egyptians had an ANA paternal lineage, that means neither Western Eurasian neither Sub-Saharan, the Mechtoid crania were distinct from both West Eurasians and Sub-Saharans, and now we know the ANA autosomal made them their particular look.

Obviously, Wandered didn't do his homework. Nilotics are mostly Y-DNA A, B and some rare and small E clades. Somalians and related people are paternally Natufian-like mixed with Nilotic females creating their current phenotype. Somali E-M78 clades are 2500 old and have no diversity, they are prone to heavy bottlenecks/founder-effect. Probably the same wave from which their Y-DNA T came from, and likely from which they differ from Egyptians since Y-DNA T is not so common in Egypt.

 

[Wanderer]

No, the video is a mere heaping of delusional points by a pathetic afrocentrist, these "very good compelling arguments" are sheer nonsense, debunkable by any one with a iota of historical knowledge.

I've skipped to the 30.00 minute time mark and the narrator said that the ancient Greeks described ancient Egyptians as "black" while a clip of black panther was playing: I'd believe it was a far-right parody of afrocentrism if I didn't know it is a genuine attempt at proving they wuz kangz. Anyway, ancient Greeks didn't refer to them as "black", for μελανοχρωος meant "dark-skinned", that's why it was said that both Egyptians and Ethiopians were μελανοχρωοι, that is both dark-skinned, one brown and the other black, not that they were both black.
As for the other nonsense, we knew that along the Nile many nations of different "racial" make-up lived, but not every one was Egyptian and "Egypt" as meaning the land inhabited by ethnic Egyptians was the Nile up to the first cataract, in which western Eurasian populations with minor subsaharan contribution lived, as it can be seen in the way they represented themselves in art as distinct from the Nubians further down the Nile.
I am tired of seeing such load of BS even on this site.

No, the video is a mere heaping of delusional points by a pathetic afrocentrist, these "very good compelling arguments" are sheer nonsense, debunkable by any one with a iota of historical knowledge.

I've skipped to the 30.00 minute time mark and the narrator said that the ancient Greeks described ancient Egyptians as "black" while a clip of black panther was playing: I'd believe it was a far-right parody of afrocentrism if I didn't know it is a genuine attempt at proving they wuz kangz. Anyway, ancient Greeks didn't refer to them as "black", for μελανοχρωος meant "dark-skinned", that's why it was said that both Egyptians and Ethiopians were μελανοχρωοι, that is both dark-skinned, one brown and the other black, not that they were both black.
As for the other nonsense, we knew that along the Nile many nations of different "racial" make-up lived, but not every one was Egyptian and "Egypt" as meaning the land inhabited by ethnic Egyptians was the Nile up to the first cataract, in which western Eurasian populations with minor subsaharan contribution lived, as it can be seen in the way they represented themselves in art as distinct from the Nubians further down the Nile.
I am tired of seeing such load of BS even on this site.

The arguements are pretty strong though. Those mummies are relatively young for the most part.

Egyptians used afro picks and the spacing for teeth arent narrow for thin hair like in ancient greece and europe.

The egyptians on the narmer plate have wide noses full lips and afros. The enemy slain by the bull has an aqualine nose and straight hair. Its on the narmer plate itself. Although most of figures appear to have big bulbous noses or wide nises. And full lips. The enemies tend to have straighter hair or maybe its braided? but many have full lips and wide noses.

They really did originate far south from black east african ethiopians.

https://www.worldhistory.org/image/4412/narmer-palette-two-sides/

You can download the full image yourself.

The skin color thing is addressed but you didnt pay attention.
Its addressed at 15:00

And he is right I think because europeans dont have afros and in the narmer plaque they have afros. These people are ethiopian decendants so they would have afros and straight hair also likely.

 

[Leopoldo Leone]

The arguements are pretty strong though. Those mummies are relatively young for the most part.

Egyptians used afro picks and the spacing for teeth arent narrow for thin hair like in ancient greece and europe.

The egyptians on the narmer plate have wide noses full lips and afros. The enemy slain by the bull has an aqualine nose and straight hair. Its on the narmer plate itself. Although most of figures appear to have big bulbous noses or wide nises. And full lips. The enemies tend to have straighter hair or maybe its braided? but many have full lips and wide noses.

They really did originate far south from black east african ethiopians.

https://www.worldhistory.org/image/4412/narmer-palette-two-sides/

You can download the full image yourself.

The skin color thing is addressed but you didnt pay attention.
Its addressed at 15:00

And he is right I think because europeans dont have afros and in the narmer plaque they have afros. These people are ethiopian decendants so they would have afros and straight hair also likely.

What a wild imagination one needs to see black afro, wide noses and full lips on that plate! Anyway, it's the last time I reply but I felt that if such nonsense keeps not getting any backlash from time to time it seems as if it is condoned here.

 

[Wanderer]

What a wild imagination one needs to see black afro, wide noses and full lips on that plate! Anyway, it's the last time I reply but I felt that if such nonsense keeps not getting any backlash from time to time it seems as if it is condoned here.

You just have to look

They look like ethiopian bejar afar oromos and other cushites.

 

[Jovialis]

The latest King Tut reconstruction. He looks a lot more West Eurasian, than his coffin would initially lead one to believe.

 

[Angela]

Some people refuse to accept reality. They see what they want to see; what confirms their agendas.

Yes, there were some Sudanese Pharaohs, but the majority were not heavily SSA admixed. We know that because we have the ancient genomes to prove it. It's only today that Egyptians have around 20% SSA, and that's because of the Arab slave trade.

I have no idea why people think that, say, 10% SSA or 15% or even 20% SSA would necessarily show in the face.


John Wayles Jefferson, grandson of Thomas Jefferson and his slave Sally Hemings. If Sally was a quadroon, as seems likely, then John was 6.5% SSA if his mother was white or 13% SSA if she was also mixed race.

 

[Wanderer]

Look black to me despite what their dna test may say.

 

[Wanderer]

Tutsi dna half bantu, looks the same as other horners and sudanese

Luo african scoring 67% sudanese.

Ancient nubians

 

[Wanderer]

 

[Wanderer]

Even if they scored lower nilotic, they score alongside other cushitics, who still look black. I would not confuse them for iranians saudis, syrians turks ect. But I might confuse them for other horner, cushites and sudanese/chaddic peoples. And some even nilotes.

Now compare her who is only about 30 percent european
And mostly sub saharan west african. What do you get? A cushite passing woman, ancient nubian and original egyptian from punt.

Nubians think she's nubian, but she's not.

Now look at the andaman Islanders
They plot with other asians who look very different. Phenotypically, it still looks black.

That man does not look like an ancient egyptian.....

 

[Duarte]

Afrocentrists and Woke are synonyms. I personally am not in the habit of looking down on someone's culture or origins or a people's background. I have a lot of respect for the culture and origins of all peoples. The woke (this is a word that I have a hard time understanding what it means, so I take it as synonymous with “Afrocentrist of the United States”) desperately want a great ancient civilization to call their own. The blacks who came to the Americas have nothing to do with the ancient Egyptians or even the modern ones. Black Americans are descendants of Niger-Congolese peoples originally from West Africa and the term 'Black’ in its meaning achieved in the United States cannot be applied to Egyptians, descendants of Western Eurasians whose SSA heritage (much smaller in percentage terms) comes mostly from East African peoples who themselves were already quite mixed with western Eurasians. Instead of claiming ancient Egypt as the great black civilization of the past, which is a big lie, they should seek to extol the great contribution of West Africans to Western culture in sports, music, cuisine, etc, etc.

 

[Wanderer]

The latest King Tut reconstruction. He looks a lot more West Eurasian, than his coffin would initially lead one to believe.

The latest King Tut reconstruction. He looks a lot more West Eurasian, than his coffin would initially lead one to believe.

The reconstruction looks more ssa then me and I am a quarter black.

It doesn'tt even look like the bust