Immigration France in Flames

[ragedaddy]

Yes, I am sure that there are many immigrants on this board. I should have been more specific with the situation that is being discussed, and so I was talking from the perspective of the African immigrants in France.

 

[RockLee]

Maybe, I need to explain a little better about the pride thing. Obviously, Europe has a great deal of history compared to the US, and so they are less accepting of people coming into their country.

Err, I suggest you study some European history.WE got all those immigrants to Belgium and other European countries to work in the mines in a period of the 20's until the 70's.We have laws against discrimination towards foreigners.The only thing we want is that we won't be overrun by immigrants and will not become a second Morroco or Turkey or whatever by overpopulation of immigrants.

They don't want others coming into political power, and having a say how things are run in their country.

Nobody wants that, sorry but this reply is somewhat stupid.No offence though.It's OUR country afterall.

I guess I don't understand how France wants these immigrants to act like they're French, yet they are content with keeping these people isolated in a group. Should France not be trying harder to integrate these people into the Paris community by dispersing them as opposed to keeping them isolated?

It's those immigrants who are not willing to integrate.Sarkozy said that all the people who won't accept the French laws and don't want to integrate should be send back to their own country.I think he said nothing wrong by this :souka: The man has a point.They don't want to change these people into French people, just want the immigrants to speak French if they are going to reside there.

 

[bossel]

Those who want to integrate are able to do so

Are they? The example with the faked applications showed that if you are from certain suburbs, your chance on a job is pretty low. A good job makes a decent living. A decent living is the best way to integrate.

We have laws against discrimination towards foreigners.

Which means: words on paper...

It's OUR country afterall.

Do I hear a "Belgium to the Belgians"?

It's those immigrants who are not willing to integrate.

Is it?

Sarkozy said that all the people who won't accept the French laws and don't want to integrate should be send back to their own country.

He said more than that. The term "vermin" comes to mind.

The man has a point.They don't want to change these people into French people,

Sounds as if they wouldn't be allowed to become French (Do I hear a "France for the French"?). Luckily, the large majority of the rioters already have French citizenship.
OK, I suppose, that's not what you meant, but the sound of it...

just want the immigrants to speak French if they are going to reside there.

Interestingly, it seems that most of the rioters were young people who actually speak French quite well. I've seen a number of interviews & all of the interviewed seemed well versed in French.

 

[bossel]

Furthermore, they represent the community which the rioters claim to be discriminated against.

AFAIK, they don't. There are not only Muslims in those suburbs, nor among the rioters. In most of the interviews I've watched religion wasn't even mentioned.

Funny that Muslim teenagers should riot because of not having equal job opportunities, when they are not old enough to work,

It's not only about not having a job, but also about future prospects. The riots themselves are for the largest part not a political protest, but a show of frustration (& in a number of cases sheer fun in destroying stuff). Discrimination is the cause, but not the motive.

They are just gangs of vermin who want to attract some attention on them.

Ah, vermin! Isn't it nice to have such wonderful easy-going labels. There are no reasons, nothing to discuss, nothing wrong here, just a little vermin problem. Riot over, problem over.

The French government acts in a paternal way toward them. They refuse to use too much violence, and tell them to go to bed instead !

Which is quite a good thing if you deal with some kiddies gone wild. As you can see in Germany (where you also have some youth rioting once in a while, as ritually in Berlin on Mayday, or the Chaos Days in Hanover), the carrot and stick approach can work quite well with some silly youngsters.

 

[RupaZoya]

It seems to me that the human nature response to situations by simplifying them has made this matter far more complicated than it need be. Some people have been posting with ideas of what people of certain races are doing - whether or not they are integrating, for example. 'They come over here, to our country, and then make a little version of their own country in the ghetto and refuse to integrate,' seems to be a prevalent attitude in society at the moment.

In reality, people of a certain race do not think by using a hive mind. Nor did they come to our country with a master plan of how to deal with ethnic differences. Things just unfolded in a particular way, as individuals got on with their lives.

It's not helpful at all to think of people with foreign ancestry in terms of otherness. It's not fair to second-guess their intentions when they hang out in groups of the same ethnic origin. Sure, I feel intimidated at college when I have to walk past a gang of pakistanis. But it's not because they're pakistani. It's because they're a gang. People from similar cultures, be they racial, class-based or sub-cultures, form groups all the time. It's not necessarily lack of integration.

It's all very well and good to feel more secure because you've criticized 'the forigners' for not 'integrating,' but can you be sure that if you and your family moved to another country, you would not act in the same way? The British papers always complain about immigrants who can't speak English, for example. Yet what of the British ex-pats in Spain, who don't speak Spanish? Is that any different?

I think we just need to find a way of dealing that the problems that have arisen with compassion (But also the necessary force) and without racism, however mild the racism you have may be. It no longer matters whose fault it is that immigrants in France live away from the rest of society in near poverty. What matters is that people are suffering and we need to reduce that suffering in whatever way we can.

I hope I got my point across, I'm not very good with language today.

 

[RockLee]

Quote:
It's OUR country afterall.
Do I hear a "Belgium to the Belgians"?

No, you hear a "leave the controlling of Belgium to Belgians and keep it Belgian, not make it Turkey or whatever." Would you like if I would come over to Germany and start messing with the way things are in Germany? I think not.

Quote:
It's those immigrants who are not willing to integrate.
Is it?

Yes it is, there are oh so many immigrants that after living in Belgium,... didn't even bother to learn the language or simply refuse to.Some Turkish guys living their whole lives in Belgium speak like friggin immigrants, their parents just don't bother to speak Dutch to them.Integration my ass ! kashii:

Quote:
Sarkozy said that all the people who won't accept the French laws and don't want to integrate should be send back to their own country.
He said more than that. The term "vermin" comes to mind.

Isn't that exactly what they proved to be? Or do you find blowing up cars a normal thing? Maybe back in their own country yeh.

Quote:
The man has a point.They don't want to change these people into French people,
Sounds as if they wouldn't be allowed to become French (Do I hear a "France for the French"?). Luckily, the large majority of the rioters already have French citizenship.
OK, I suppose, that's not what you meant, but the sound of it...

You only make of it what you want, although you know damn well what I meant.

Quote:
just want the immigrants to speak French if they are going to reside there.
Interestingly, it seems that most of the rioters were young people who actually speak French quite well. I've seen a number of interviews & all of the interviewed seemed well versed in French.

Like there is said before, these are just young punks who think it's cool and think their actions will make a difference, it will only make things worse.

 

[bossel]

No, you hear a "leave the controlling of Belgium to Belgians and keep it Belgian, not make it Turkey or whatever." Would you like if I would come over to Germany and start messing with the way things are in Germany? I think not.

You think wrong. I wouldn't care very much, you couldn't make it much worse than our own politicians, anyway.
What's more, we already have Belgians meddling in our politics: as EU citizens you have the right to vote & stand as a candidate in local elections. There are 1.5 million non-German EU-citizens who have that right.

I fail to see why some immigrants who keep to their traditions would make Belgium into Turkey, Morocco or whatever.

Yes it is, there are oh so many immigrants that after living in Belgium,... didn't even bother to learn the language or simply refuse to.

So many, hmm... How many? Do you have any statistics?

Some Turkish guys living their whole lives in Belgium speak like friggin immigrants,

Friggin immigrants? What's so freaky (or did you mean female masturbation) about immigrants?

their parents just don't bother to speak Dutch to them.Integration my ass !

Well, yeah, that's their parents' fault, not theirs.
& I doubt, that your arse would invite anyone to integrate (oh, well, maybe except for the few with very special interests).

Isn't that exactly what they proved to be? Or do you find blowing up cars a normal thing? Maybe back in their own country yeh.

Since almost all have French citizenship, France is "their own country yeh."
Those who blew up cars are a small minority even in these suburbs, you & your buddy Sarkozy have quite a way of simplifying matters. It's sooo easy: there is no social problem, just some vermin. Let the vermin exterminator come & the problem's gone.

You only make of it what you want, although you know damn well what I meant.

Do I? Ah, thanks for the flowers, but maybe you overestimate my intellect.

these are just young punks who think it's cool and think their actions will make a difference

Young punks, exactly. & I doubt that many of them think that their actions would make a difference. They are just frustrated & found a rather unfortunate way to relieve the pressure (except for the idiots who habitually destroy stuff, because it's "fun").

 

[Maciamo]

Maybe, I need to explain a little better about the pride thing. Obviously, Europe has a great deal of history compared to the US, and so they are less accepting of people coming into their country.

How do you explain then that the French Interior Ministry (and favourite presidential candidate) is himself from an immigrant family ? How do you explain the power and influence of some Jewish families in France (including 5 Prime Ministers, the founders of such famous companies as Danone, Citroen, L'Oreal, Chanel...), or that other famous French politicians were also from immigrant families, such as Pierre Beregovoy (son of a Russian immigrant) who served as Prime Minister, or François-Xavier Ortoli (of Italian origin), who served as President of the European Commission ?

In comparison, all US presidents until now have been of British or Irish origin, with a few of Dutch and German descent too. No Russian, no Italian, no Hungarian, and I think, no Jew (yes, even in the US !).

You can also check the list of French MPs. You will see that there are dozens of Italian surnames (too many to list here), many German ones (Aeschlimann, Diefenbacher, Goldberg, Grosskost, Heinrich, Herr, Hillmeyer, Jung, Schneider, Schwartzenberg, Strauss-Kahn, Ueberschlag, Warsmann, Woerth, Zimmermann, Zumkeller...) as well as some Eastern European ones (Blisko, Devedjian, Poniatowski, Kossowski...), one Asian (Thien Ah Koon), and also a few people of African descent ! (e.g. Almont, Beaugendre, Habib, Kamardine, Rimane, Taubira...)

FYI, EU countries have similar anti-discrimination laws based on directives of the EU Parliament. You can compare the situation in each country here.

France was in fact the first country in the world to proclaim the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen in 1789, which as Wikipedia says "sets forth fundamental rights not only of French citizens but acknowledges these rights to all men without exception". In comparison, the US constitution allowed slavery, and Black people only got their rights recognised in the 1960's (not even completely). The latest French constitution (of 1958) confirms the one of 1789.

The French Penal Code (articles 187-1 and 225-1) prohibits any form of discrimination, including between employer and employee. New additional laws passed in 2001, 2002 and 2003 give further protection against discrimination at work, for accommodation, and defines punishments for racist, antisemitic or xenophobic actions.

Yet another law passed in March 2004 introduces penalties from 3 to 5 years of prison, or 45,000 to 75,000 euros, for anybody practising discrimination for employment, refusal of goods, services or admission to a public place based on gender, race, religion, etc. In other words, if someone refuses to let an apartment, refuses entry to a restaurant, hotel, nightclub or whatever, based on race, they are liable to a 75,000 fine or 5 years in jail. If only Japan had such laws !

There are many more laws or regulations against racism, as well as many organisations such as EQUAL (managed by the French government), SOS racisme, etc.

That's why I believe that the teenage deliquents that have rioted all around France recently do not have any valid claims.

 

[Maciamo]

Sure, I feel intimidated at college when I have to walk past a gang of pakistanis. But it's not because they're pakistani. It's because they're a gang. People from similar cultures, be they racial, class-based or sub-cultures, form groups all the time. It's not necessarily lack of integration.

In France and Belgium, almost all the "gangs" are made of people of Arabic descent. Why do you think that is ? We don't see gangs of Eastern Europeans, Vietnamese or Chinese. Even Black Africans rarely form such gangs. Vietnam and Laos were also French colonies and many people from these countries have also migrated to France, like those from Morocco or Algeria. Yet we never hear of any problem with them. There are plenty of Vietnamese and Chinese restaurants in France. These Asian immigrants do not form ghettos (although they come from countries poorer than Morocco), adapt better (although they more unmistakenly look foreign, while some Arabs could pass for locals or Spaniards in the South of France) and they don't complain about discrimination. Why ?

The British papers always complain about immigrants who can't speak English, for example. Yet what of the British ex-pats in Spain, who don't speak Spanish? Is that any different?

I really wonder why they are living in Spain if they are not willing to learn Spanish. To those people : "go home !"

 

[Maciamo]

I fail to see why some immigrants who keep to their traditions would make Belgium into Turkey, Morocco or whatever.

Take the Thalys from Cologne to Brussels, and visit districts like Schaerbeek (near North Station) or St Giles (near South Station). You will understand immediately. If you do go, watch out for gangs btw.

Young punks, exactly. & I doubt that many of them think that their actions would make a difference. They are just frustrated & found a rather unfortunate way to relieve the pressure (except for the idiots who habitually destroy stuff, because it's "fun").

So why did the BBC report that they were claiming that they did it as a response to discrimination against Muslims ?

 

[Lacan]

Yeah I see about the laws, but it seems that a race qualification for a job is a little ridiculous. How about these employers who were tossing out applications of the people, who had Muslim names, are they doing some time in jail now, or was this merely overlooked by the authorities? If you have laws but don't enforce them, then what is the point of having it as a law?

you got a point here

city schools don't have adequate supplies or teachers.

you haven't heard of ZEP (zone d'education prioritaire) have you? It's a program which give priority in term of education to those "ghettos". this means more teacher, more money, more support etc. Thanks to this I could achieve a degree while I was living in one of these "ghettos". But I have to admit that this program is half a failure, as only those who go to school can take some advantage of it. There are a lot of children who just don't go to school, why should they when their parents don't work, stay at home and earn (if they have at least 3 children) about 1600 ? per month.
I still wonder why west indies black, asian, or turkish people who live in the same places, in the same conditions can get get a degree and not the others.

If you don't go to college here, that doesn't mean you can't get a decent job

sorry but here if you don't have a degree, black or not you'll have some serious problem finding a job. Being black of course only make it harder.

Is that not what France did, put all of these Africans in a ghetto (A.K.A. Mini Colony), and then expect them all to act and be French?

France do not expect them to act French but just to respect some of the value of France like: do not beat up the male hospital doctor because he auscultate your wife or your daughter, do not refused to do sport at school because you must not speak to boys, do not not commit honnor crimes, do not refute the Holocaust or Shoa in history class ect...

He said more than that. The term "vermin" comes to mind.

Ok I do think Nicholas Sarkozy is a ***hole, but I don't understand where that word vermin come from, the french word was "racailles" which means "bad boys" and not "vermin" ( which is "vermine" in french by the way). I do see lots of young boys pretending to be racailles or wearing clothes with je suis une racailles or Kaira on them.

I think we just need to find a way of dealing that the problems that have arisen with compassion (But also the necessary force) and without racism, however mild the racism you have may be. It no longer matters whose fault it is that immigrants in France live away from the rest of society in near poverty. What matters is that people are suffering and we need to reduce that suffering in whatever way we can.

You said it

 

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

I really wonder why they are living in Spain if they are not willing to learn Spanish. To those people : "go home !"

Yes, and that counts for many countries in Europe who were willing to take emigrants in there countries. Here in Holland we soon will have more mosques than windmills. Several of our ministers are threatened with the death by some Moslim fanatics living in Holland. I am pleased with all emigrants who are content living in Holland, they have become, like me, Europeans. But all the immigrants who dislike the Dutch and other Europeans should try to live a more happy life somewher else.
I have done the same when I was a immigrant in South Africa and much later in the USA. I was not satified, so I left!

 

[Lacan]

I really wonder why they are living in Spain if they are not willing to learn Spanish. To those people : "go home !"

Yes, and that counts for many countries in Europe who were willing to take emigrants in there countries. Here in Holland we soon will have more mosques than windmills. Several of our ministers are threatened with the death by some Moslim fanatics living in Holland. I am pleased with all emigrants who are content living in Holland, they have become, like me, Europeans. But all the immigrants who dislike the Dutch and other Europeans should try to live a more happy life somewher else.
I have done the same when I was a immigrant in South Africa and much later in the USA. I was not satified, so I left!

Some of them are refugees, they can't go back that easily...

 

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

You are absolutely right Lacan, but I am not talking about refugees.
Refugees don't even come to Europe out of free will, they can't stay any longer in their own country. They have left home and family and I find this more sad than anything else. I can understand that most of them dream about going back one day if that could be possible.

But immigrants should really give it a better try to become Europeans. They shouldn't burn other people's cars or worse, they should demonstrate peacefully against our governments because governments are their for all of us. Immigrants must have the same rights as the French, Belgians, Germans or Dutch, but they also have the same duties.
Making mistakes is very human, but we can all learn from our mistakes, not so? I think that talking (or writing) and listening is much better than what happens in France today.

 

[Sensuikan San]

You are absolutely right Lacan, but I am not talking about refugees.
Refugees don't even come to Europe out of free will, they can't stay any longer in their own country. They have left home and family and I find this more sad than anything else. I can understand that most of them dream about going back one day if that could be possible.

But immigrants should really give it a better try to become Europeans. They shouldn't burn other people's cars or worse, they should demonstrate peacefully against our governments because governments are their for all of us. Immigrants must have the same rights as the French, Belgians, Germans or Dutch, but they also have the same duties.
Making mistakes is very human, but we can all learn from our mistakes, not so? I think that talking (or writing) and listening is much better than what happens in France today.

Agreed! And I speak as an immigrant to a country myself.

There are (not so subtle) differences between "immigrants", "refugees", "visitors" and "guestworkers".

The "immigrant" chooses to live in a chosen country and presumably chooses to become part of the fabric of that country and its life. As such, surely the immigrant must examine and explore the lifestyle of that country before landing and after landing, and make many, many profound decisions as to their own acceptance of that country. In short ... a commitment is made. If they feel that they cannot keep that commitment - fair enough ... it's not always easy. Leave; go back! Don't expect the country to change for you!

If you are a visitor or a guest worker ... and don't like what's around you ... leave; go back!

If you are a refugee - then you have a real problem. And my heart goes out to them!

These are people who don't choose to go somewhere - they simply feel forced to leave somewhere. They have been forced to throw their lives to the wind, so to speak.

So ... where do they fit in? And what is to be done about their plight?

More importantly ...what can they do about their own plight?

Life is tough. It has always been so. The life ... the topsy-turvy, churned up, disoriented life of a refugee ... even more so. But being a refugee in a country that has (at least for the time being) accepted you ... gives you breathing and thinking space. You can use it. To make choices. To make decisions. To move on ... or one day, perhaps, ... go home!

Granting asylum to a refugee is a very humanitarian act. But it is not the answer to the refugees' problem. It is an opportunity granted. Granted to allow the making of choice, the making of decisions. The forging of a future.

The burning of cars does not come into the equation!

ジョン

 

[RockLee]

Quote:
Yes it is, there are oh so many immigrants that after living in Belgium,... didn't even bother to learn the language or simply refuse to.
So many, hmm... How many? Do you have any statistics?

I'm starting to think you can't live without your statistics, do you actually believe they are correct in all cases? Anyways, come over and live in our neighbourhood for a while, maybe you'll understand then.

Quote:
Some Turkish guys living their whole lives in Belgium speak like friggin immigrants,
Friggin immigrants? What's so freaky (or did you mean female masturbation) about immigrants?

In this context it would translate to 'As if they were'.Is that clear enough for you?Don't understand where you got 'female masturbation' from :? I can't even relate that to the topic.

Quote:
their parents just don't bother to speak Dutch to them.Integration my ass !
Well, yeah, that's their parents' fault, not theirs.
& I doubt, that your arse would invite anyone to integrate (oh, well, maybe except for the few with very special interests).

Guess what, their parents are immigrants :O ! And don't integrate at all, except some who actually make an effort.It's not only the youth who's responsible, as there are a lot of parents who simply don't give a damn about integrating and live their lives as if they would live back in their previous country where they came from.

Quote:
You only make of it what you want, although you know damn well what I meant.
Do I? Ah, thanks for the flowers, but maybe you overestimate my intellect.

Maybe I am.

 

[Maciamo]

Yes, and that counts for many countries in Europe who were willing to take emigrants in there countries. Here in Holland we soon will have more mosques than windmills. Several of our ministers are threatened with the death by some Moslim fanatics living in Holland. I am pleased with all emigrants who are content living in Holland, they have become, like me, Europeans. But all the immigrants who dislike the Dutch and other Europeans should try to live a more happy life somewher else.
I have done the same when I was a immigrant in South Africa and much later in the USA. I was not satified, so I left!

I completely agree with that. I am now living in Japan because my wife wanted to. After a few years during which I have learnt the language, culture, manners, system, etc like few other people have (even surpassing many Japanese in "cultural knowledge"), and managed to obtain a permanent visa. But I have come to realise that it didn't help much for adapting to Japanese society as I do not look Japanese, and in Japan that is the only way one could be accepted as a Japanese.

Basically, I have adapted to Japanese lifestyle, society and culture better than almost any African immigrant in Europe, even after 2 generations. But the problem is visibly with Japanese society and people. When the cops are so narrow-minded as to think that someone coming from a country with a higher GDP per capita and better education system than Japan, and working in Japan's top business district, could steal a bicycle just because he is a foreigner, or that a Western with Japanese nationality (like Arudo Debito) is still refused entry to places for "Japanese only" after showing his Japanese passport, you understand that the situation is desperate.

So, I convinced my wife to move to Europe, as she will not be discriminated the way I am in Japan, and the quality of life is higher (see this article).

 

[Maciamo]

Yeah I see about the laws, but it seems that a race qualification for a job is a little ridiculous. How about these employers who were tossing out applications of the people, who had Muslim names, are they doing some time in jail now, or was this merely overlooked by the authorities? If you have laws but don't enforce them, then what is the point of having it as a law?

But did they complain to one of the government agencies dealing with discrimination problems ? Did they sue the responsibles in court ? Usually they don't because they don't even know about the legal system because they didn't care to go to school (as Lacan said), or learn about the system when they first came to Europe (as I did within the first few months after coming to Japan, and as anybody living in any country for sometime should do).

Naturally, it would be futile to give citizenship to such people. Many already have it, because France is extremely generous when it comes to citizenship. I would like to see the introduction of a nationality test similar to the Britishness test or the easier one that those wishing to become US citizens must pass. There is no such thing in France or Belgium. The only condition regarding local knowledge is to speak one of the official language at a reasonable level. There is no knowledge of the local culture or system required, which I think is a real shame.

 

[bossel]

Ok I do think Nicholas Sarkozy is a ***hole, but I don't understand where that word vermin come from, the french word was "racailles" which means "bad boys" and not "vermin"

Actually, it's a re-translation: "racaille" is German "Gesindel" is English "vermin". Since I wasn't entirely sure of the English usage (though for synonyms of "Gesindel" I almost always find vermin as an option) I said something like "vermin or mob" when I mentioned it 1st, but since Maciamo used it as well (albeit specifically referring to the rioters), I got the impression that vermin is correct.

So why did the BBC report that they were claiming that they did it as a response to discrimination against Muslims ?

I don't know when, where & who the BBC interviewed, but in the interviews on German TV that I watched, religion never was an issue.
You will always have some freaks who claim that religion prescribed their actions, but that's all too often just a cheap excuse.

I'm starting to think you can't live without your statistics, do you actually believe they are correct in all cases?

I can very well live without statistics but they are a much better indicator of reality than the feelings of someone who is obviously biased.

In this context it would translate to 'As if they were'.Is that clear enough for you?

Hmm, well, can't say that I ever heard of that definition for "friggin."

Don't understand where you got 'female masturbation' from

Sex Pistols: "Friggin' in the Riggin'"
AFAIK, etymologically it was originally a euphemism for masturbation in general, but narrowed down to female masturbation.

Guess what, their parents are immigrants :O

Of course they are, but you didn't give them as examples.

And don't integrate at all, except some who actually make an effort.

Like Boutih, you mean? Oh, if it only was sooo easy. It isn't.
Which, BTW, Boutih himself thinks, as well. I'm pretty much in agreement with his opinion (what I know of it).

It's not only the youth who's responsible, as there are a lot of parents who simply don't give a damn about integrating and live their lives as if they would live back in their previous country where they came from.

You mean they don't conform to Belgian/French laws?
If they can live their lives as they are used to, why shouldn't they. Don't have a problem with that, as long as they don't try to change my lifestyle. I didn't have Muslim missionaries on my doorstep yet, only Christian ones.

Maybe I am.

Nope, maybe you do.


Edit:
Just found that the BBC uses "rabble" for "racaille", "rabble" being one more translation option for German "Gesindel" (but one that I didn't use, for I never heard it before).

BTW, BBC:
Suburb residents speak

City Policy in Tatters

 

[Maciamo]

Actually, it's a re-translation: "racaille" is German "Gesindel" is English "vermin". Since I wasn't entirely sure of the English usage (though for synonyms of "Gesindel" I almost always find vermin as an option) I said something like "vermin or mob" when I mentioned it 1st, but since Maciamo used it as well (albeit specifically referring to the rioters), I got the impression that vermin is correct.
...
Edit:
Just found that the BBC uses "rabble" for "racaille", "rabble" being one more translation option for German "Gesindel" (but one that I didn't use, for I never heard it before).

The Economist translated it as "scum", which I think is even further from the French meaning. From my Oxford Dictionary :

- Vermin : very unpleasant and destructive people
- Rabble : disorderly crowd // ordinary people regarded as socially inferior or uncouth
- Scum : a worthless or contemptible person or group of people

This French online dictionary's definition of racaille is closest to rabble, although I would personally prefer the word "vermin" in English to define the behaviour of the rioters (esp. the "destructive" part).