Immigration France in Flames

[Maciamo]

You should have a look at the discussion on the Expatica Belgium Forum.

Here are a few comments that sum up exactly how I view the situation of the "integration" of 2nd generation immigrants (note that many of the posters are themselves immigrants to Belgium, usually native English speakers - although some are Belgian) :

These "youths" (Moroccans between the ages of 18 and 25) receive on the order of EU800/month on chaumage. Many of them drive nicer cars than I do.

I own a business in one of these "impoverished areas". I have close contact with these youths on a daily basis.
...
I know plenty of Moroccans who have integrated into Belgian culture. They adopt local customs and values yet maintain a devotion to Islam. I call these people friends, and in some cases, employees. The difference that I have remarked in these "youths" is that they completely reject local values and custom. In many cases, though raised speaking French, they converse in Arabic with eachother.

Is it any wonder these "youths" cannot find work? In a service based enconomy, who can really afford to hire people who (a) will not integrate into the team and (b) will not understand how a customer should be treated? Not me! Turst me, I have tried... and failed.

I've had situations where these "youths" will commit a crime (break into a car for example) and we've had to call the police. This then sparks an argument in which the "youth" claims we and the police are not showing him proper respect. Huh?
...
Make no mistake, these youths DO have opporunity. The state does do better than most in that area. The horse is standing at the water's edge but refuses to drink.

This topic really interest me since I am an immigrant to Belgium, having grown up in the US. I married a belgian man and we have three wonderful children. It's not always been easy and we've had to compromise on certain issues.
...
Before you get the idea that my husband earns a ton of money, his income is less than 20k and we are a family of 5. He works full time and is currently finishing a degree - there isn't a lot of money left at the end of the month but we muddle through.
...
One of the best compliments I received was at a local shop where a clerk saw me come in with my mob and had expected that they were going to be like many other children but when we got to the check out she told me that it was so nice to see children that knew how to behave.

To me intergration is a combination of things 1. respect your community and the people in it 2. learning the language (if needed) 3. the willingness to follow the local laws. What you do in your own home is your business but when you're out and about show some respect. I'm not saying that you have to change your customs and traditions but you do have to respect those of your community.

"But there are others who have no education and little prospects. "

Perhaps the reason they have few prospects is that they have no education.

Why do they have no education?

What are they doing about it?

Send the little layabouts back to where they came from. I'm not interested in hearing about how tough it is to get a job when you dont have any qualifications (cos you didnt bother your lazy arse to get them). Crime should not be condoned, these criminals should be treated as such. I'm not interested in what colour, what creed or religion they claim to be, if they partake in criminal activity then they deserve the consequences. Zero tolerance to useless lazy lumps like this. These are the same thugs who are responsible for most of the anti-social behaviour that anyone who has lived in Brussels for any length of time has seen.

The current immigration policy is a very good example of Political Correctness gone awry.

Can you imagine that they dropped the interview process some years ago? This was to ensure there was no "discrimination".

Unfortunately, it also pretty much ensures the applicant does not speak the local language, has no idea what a Stoemp is and probably doesn't understand local laws, government, etc.

My wife relocated here with her family when she was 14. She learned Dutch, graduated from a the VUB and is now a lawyer. And yet she just now acquired citizenship. She applied 5 years ago and watched as countless Khaleds and Rachids jumped ahead of her in the queue. She begged for an interview but could not get one.

I believe that one of the biggest problem is that the parents of these African immigrant do not teach them proper manners and values to be able to live in any society (they would probably have as hard adapting in their ancestors' country).

Another big problem is that those uncouth youths complain about not being able to get jobs, but they typically prefered to roam the streets as teenagers rather than attend school. School in Belgium and France is free (compulsory until 18 in Belgium), and people can go back to school for free to complete their studies any time they want. I have learnt recently that university in Belgium is cheaper than in China (!), although average salaries are about 30x higher than in China. China is now more fiercely capitalist than the USA in matters of education ! In Belgium, a 3-year degree (e.g. webdesign) cost about 100 euro/year, while a 4 or 5-year university degree costs about 300 to 800 euro/year. Unemplyed people get about 400 to 1000 euro/month. There is no limitation in the number of students or entry exam for university, so there is no good excuse for anyone not to go to university (although the failure rate is about 80%, so only the most motivated can graduate).

NB : for those who didn't follow the news in detail, 15 cars were also torched in various Belgian cities. That's not much compared to France, but it did cross the border.

 

[RockLee]

I can very well live without statistics but they are a much better indicator of reality than the feelings of someone who is obviously biased.

It's just the way it is.Do you live here? no, so you can't say anything about that matter,except the things they tell you on the news etc. I see children of immigrants on a daily basis, some behave and some don't.Unfortunately the last group makes up for a huge percent.Call me biased, but it's what I experienced and still experience every day.I don't need statistics for something so obvious.Ever went to Brussels as Maciamo said?

Hmm, well, can't say that I ever heard of that definition for "friggin."

I suggest you watch some movies, you'll get a whole new vocabulary !

AFAIK, etymologically it was originally a euphemism for masturbation in general, but narrowed down to female masturbation.

Don't know what the Sex Pistols have in common with 'rioters' as a topic.

Of course they are, but you didn't give them as examples.

My bad.

You mean they don't conform to Belgian/French laws?
If they can live their lives as they are used to, why shouldn't they. Don't have a problem with that, as long as they don't try to change my lifestyle. I didn't have Muslim missionaries on my doorstep yet, only Christian ones.

I have never had a Christian on my doorstep, only those Jehova's witnesses :?

Quote:
Maybe I am.
Nope, maybe you do.

No, maybe I am(overestimating your intellect) I left out that part, so it looked rather strange.

 

[bossel]

It's just the way it is.Do you live here? no, so you can't say anything about that matter,except the things they tell you on the news etc. I see children of immigrants on a daily basis, some behave and some don't.Unfortunately the last group makes up for a huge percent.Call me biased, but it's what I experienced and still experience every day.I don't need statistics for something so obvious.Ever went to Brussels as Maciamo said?

Well, sometimes people on the outside have a much better overview. Those who usually do those statistics definitely have a better overview than you. Since you are biased, you may suffer from selective recognition: you notice the bad stuff more & it stays in your memory longer.

I suggest you watch some movies, you'll get a whole new vocabulary !

Nah, most movies are just too boring.

Don't know what the Sex Pistols have in common with 'rioters' as a topic.

Did I say they have something in common?
You asked

Don't understand where you got 'female masturbation' from

Which I answered with:
Sex Pistols: "Friggin' in the Riggin'"
"I suggest you [listen more to punk rock], you'll get a whole new vocabulary"

I have never had a Christian on my doorstep, only those Jehova's witnesses

Yep, that's them exactly, & Mormons, too. My Chinese friends have been bothered by some protestant freaks as well.

 

[RockLee]

Well, sometimes people on the outside have a much better overview. Those who usually do those statistics definitely have a better overview than you. Since you are biased, you may suffer from selective recognition: you notice the bad stuff more & it stays in your memory longer.

They are not biased, but then on the other hand, they don't have any personal experience with that matter and only can make a statistic based on of what they heard.Statistics are not always very accurate.If you only ask 1000 out of 10 000 000 people you won't get an accurate view imo.That's why I don't fancy statistics that much.

Nah, most movies are just too boring.

True, lately it's hard to find a good movie.

Did I say they have something in common?
You asked
Which I answered with:
Sex Pistols: "Friggin' in the Riggin'"
"I suggest you [listen more to punk rock], you'll get a whole new vocabulary"

I'm not that much of a punklover.Most of the time it's Japanese music for me.

Yep, that's them exactly, & Mormons, too. My Chinese friends have been bothered by some protestant freaks as well.

They can be annoying, but it's been a long time since I last saw one Had to listen to my ex-girl's mom about their 'belief'. She was a Jehova's witness too...

 

[ragedaddy]

Err, I suggest you study some European history.WE got all those immigrants to Belgium and other European countries to work in the mines in a period of the 20's until the 70's.We have laws against discrimination towards foreigners.The only thing we want is that we won't be overrun by immigrants and will not become a second Morroco or Turkey or whatever by overpopulation of immigrants.

Yes, I would like to study more about Europe's History, so thanks for suggesting that idea. Also, laws don't mean much if they are not enforced, so I don't know why you are trying to make excuses. Yeah, well since your population growth is at .15% then you might have to resort to immigrants to keeping your country running. For sustainability of a population you need a 2% population growth, so you may have to count on an overpopulation of immigrants to save you.

Nobody wants that, sorry but this reply is somewhat stupid.No offence though.It's OUR country afterall.

Somewhat stupid?????? Are you kiddin' me??? Are you telling me if your family has been living in a country for a number of generations, they don't deserve any representation in their interests? That is ludicrous to say the least... Your country huh? Are you saying that minorities don't have a say? If so, then you are equivalent to a KKK member here in the US....

It's those immigrants who are not willing to integrate.Sarkozy said that all the people who won't accept the French laws and don't want to integrate should be send back to their own country.I think he said nothing wrong by this The man has a point.They don't want to change these people into French people, just want the immigrants to speak French if they are going to reside there.

When Sarkozy was referring to scum, he musta been talking about himself... There's plenty of Africans that can speak French, but they don't have the opportunity to get out the ghetto, so what do you want them to do? Willing to integrate is in the eye of the beholder, if you don't look at it from a neutral point-of-view then you'll never know.......

Which means: words on paper...

Yes....A.K.A overlooked......

Quote:
No, you hear a "leave the controlling of Belgium to Belgians and keep it Belgian, not make it Turkey or whatever." Would you like if I would come over to Germany and start messing with the way things are in Germany? I think not.

If these people have been living in Germany or Belgium for generations then hell yeah they deserve to have their interests represented......or how you put it, messed with.

Yes it is, there are oh so many immigrants that after living in Belgium,... didn't even bother to learn the language or simply refuse to.Some Turkish guys living their whole lives in Belgium speak like friggin immigrants, their parents just don't bother to speak Dutch to them.Integration my ass !

What about the immigrants that can speak French and German, oh yeah they are living a life of a lie....they're immigrants so who cares right?

Isn't that exactly what they proved to be? Or do you find blowing up cars a normal thing? Maybe back in their own country yeh.

Nah, I can't say it's a normal thing, so they must be sick of the BS that is being shoved down their throats....

I fail to see why some immigrants who keep to their traditions would make Belgium into Turkey, Morocco or whatever.

That makes two of us......

How do you explain then that the French Interior Ministry (and favourite presidential candidate) is himself from an immigrant family ? How do you explain the power and influence of some Jewish families in France (including 5 Prime Ministers, the founders of such famous companies as Danone, Citroen, L'Oreal, Chanel...), or that other famous French politicians were also from immigrant families, such as Pierre Beregovoy (son of a Russian immigrant) who served as Prime Minister, or François-Xavier Ortoli (of Italian origin), who served as President of the European Commission ?

In comparison, all US presidents until now have been of British or Irish origin, with a few of Dutch and German descent too. No Russian, no Italian, no Hungarian, and I think, no Jew (yes, even in the US !).

You can also check the list of French MPs. You will see that there are dozens of Italian surnames (too many to list here), many German ones (Aeschlimann, Diefenbacher, Goldberg, Grosskost, Heinrich, Herr, Hillmeyer, Jung, Schneider, Schwartzenberg, Strauss-Kahn, Ueberschlag, Warsmann, Woerth, Zimmermann, Zumkeller...) as well as some Eastern European ones (Blisko, Devedjian, Poniatowski, Kossowski...), one Asian (Thien Ah Koon), and also a few people of African descent ! (e.g. Almont, Beaugendre, Habib, Kamardine, Rimane, Taubira...)

FYI, EU countries have similar anti-discrimination laws based on directives of the EU Parliament. You can compare the situation in each country here.

France was in fact the first country in the world to proclaim the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen in 1789, which as Wikipedia says "sets forth fundamental rights not only of French citizens but acknowledges these rights to all men without exception". In comparison, the US constitution allowed slavery, and Black people only got their rights recognised in the 1960's (not even completely). The latest French constitution (of 1958) confirms the one of 1789.

The French Penal Code (articles 187-1 and 225-1) prohibits any form of discrimination, including between employer and employee. New additional laws passed in 2001, 2002 and 2003 give further protection against discrimination at work, for accommodation, and defines punishments for racist, antisemitic or xenophobic actions.

Yet another law passed in March 2004 introduces penalties from 3 to 5 years of prison, or 45,000 to 75,000 euros, for anybody practising discrimination for employment, refusal of goods, services or admission to a public place based on gender, race, religion, etc. In other words, if someone refuses to let an apartment, refuses entry to a restaurant, hotel, nightclub or whatever, based on race, they are liable to a 75,000 fine or 5 years in jail. If only Japan had such laws !

There are many more laws or regulations against racism, as well as many organisations such as EQUAL (managed by the French government), SOS racisme, etc.

That's why I believe that the teenage deliquents that have rioted all around France recently do not have any valid claims.

I stand corrected, pride doesn't mean much, so man that European kid in my class was rather racist.....

you haven't heard of ZEP (zone d'education prioritaire) have you? It's a program which give priority in term of education to those "ghettos". this means more teacher, more money, more support etc. Thanks to this I could achieve a degree while I was living in one of these "ghettos". But I have to admit that this program is half a failure, as only those who go to school can take some advantage of it. There are a lot of children who just don't go to school, why should they when their parents don't work, stay at home and earn (if they have at least 3 children) about 1600 ? per month.
I still wonder why west indies black, asian, or turkish people who live in the same places, in the same conditions can get get a degree and not the others.

Thanks for the info on ZEP, and so if you decide not to work you are guarunteed some type of monetary support from the gov????

sorry but here if you don't have a degree, black or not you'll have some serious problem finding a job. Being black of course only make it harder.

Oh yeah, I can definitely believe this....

Ok I do think Nicholas Sarkozy is a ***hole, but I don't understand where that word vermin come from, the french word was "racailles" which means "bad boys" and not "vermin" ( which is "vermine" in french by the way). I do see lots of young boys pretending to be racailles or wearing clothes with je suis une racailles or Kaira on them.

Yep, that's why Sarkozy doesn't have a political career ahead of him in the future.......

 

[Maciamo]

Somewhat stupid?????? Are you kiddin' me??? Are you telling me if your family has been living in a country for a number of generations, they don't deserve any representation in their interests?

In Rome, the locals don't consider you are Roman if you family has not lived in Rome for at lest 7 generations. Mediate on this. There is a common joke that says that for an American (or Australian) 100km is near, but 100 year is old, while for a European 100km if far, and 100 years is new. I grew up in a house that was nearly 300 years old, and my family can trace its roots in the region till the 11th century (well only 13th century in continuous, but that's still better than the Royal Family).

Most of the African immigrants to Belgium or France came in the 1960's, 70's or later. Therefore, most were not born in Belgium. They haven't been there for generations. At best, the first generation of those immigrants born in Belgium/France are now just old enough to vote or work. Most aren't. Most don't speak French or Dutch as their native language. In comparison, most of the Italian families that came between the 1920's and 50's, and therefore have lived in the country for several generations, speak French/Dutch as their native language. They are now well-integrated, do not face discrimination, do not burn cars, and Wallonia (Belgium's southern half)'s Premier is now of 100% Italian descent.

Yep, that's why Sarkozy doesn't have a political career ahead of him in the future.......

Yet, his approval rating has jumped by over 10% (to 63%) since he called the mob "scum".

 

[Gaijin 06]

We had a discussion about this in my "Doing Business in Europe" Class, and what came out of it was that France is now at where the US was in the 1960's dealing with civil rights. .... They are basically lacking rights ....

Is anyone else concerned with the quality of teaching in schools like the one mentioned above?

It is pretty shocking to me that American schools have classes like this in which inane drivel is discussed and it worries me that how many more Americans might be shockingly mis-informed.

 

[Duo]

I guess pretty much has been said in this thread concerning the issue.. I will say one thing though.. the new outlook Europe/the EU have on the future of Europe is one that does not mix or with the ideas that most of these northern african immigrants seem to have.


I am sorry but if one wants to live in Europe then they must abide by the European way. There are enough enumerated rights for everyone here so that they don't feel marginalized and what not. Everyone must respect the Civil code and customs here. If one wants to live in Europe just like they do in their homeland then I'm sorry but then they should go back.


Furthermore... amongst these northern african communities/especially marroccan it is interesting to note that in Marocco not as many women wear the veil... but in here the most of them do. This is because they want to show that they are Maroccan first, then Belgian or French or whatever. Whereas it should be the contrary. First you are a citizen of Europe then you have your ethnic roots. With this kind of attitude and alienation problems are bound to rise.


With an uncertain future still I don't think Europe needs this other issue... and especially the rise of extremist Islam... isolationist islam amonst the northern african/arab communities that creates tension between the local population and immigrants. Why is it I never hear of Bosnian Muslims protesting or feeling marginalized or discriminated in Europe ? I will admit that there is discrimination in Europe; I have found this by first hand experience while in transit through Austria and some other slighly xenophobic countries.. yet I don't think it is at such a degree that people should be burning cars... adn especially in France.. one of the states in Europe with the most diverse mutli cultural and ethnic society.



This is in NO WAY similar to the 1960's civil movement in America... so don't let morons or instigators fool you. This is more like a cutural resentment/animosity that exist between communities who isolate themselves from the mainstream society who frankly doesn't have to tolerate an imposition on their lifestyle.


PERSONALLY, I think there should be no women with a veil in a modern secular society. It degrades the female as a thing of lust that must be kept in covering garments so that men don't get tempation or whatever...it is something that puts the female down as opposed to the male... I don't care if it is a custom or tradition or whatever... if you choose to come and live in a nation where women and men can wear whatever they like you must abide by that as well. I hope that all EU/European nations put laws to exclude the veil in public institutions first.. then eventually no veil at all.

 

[Gaijin 06]

. if you choose to come and live in a nation where women and men can wear whatever they like you must abide by that as well.

So women and men are free to wear what they like, unless it is something you don't like (the veil) in which case they are not free to wear what they like?

 

[RockLee]

I'm sorry Ragedaddy, I didn't want to sound arrogant.But it seems you just swallow just about anything they shove down your throat and take that as the absolute truth.If you want to look at it like that, I won't stop you, it's your opinion afteral.I gave mine and my experiences, you don't have to believe me.

Look, when we go live in another country where women are supposed to wear veils or something like that, we will get either shot(ok, very extreme...but it could happen);get thrown out of the country or go to jail if we don't live by their rules or customs.Everyone can do what he/she wants in his own house as long as it's no hindrance to others.

 

[Duo]

So women and men are free to wear what they like, unless it is something you don't like (the veil) in which case they are not free to wear what they like?

Ahhh.. you caught my error in diction... what i meant to say is that the veil shouldn't be imposed on women.. as it mostly is in the cases of muslim girls here. Because women wear it your native land it doesn't mean that your daughter/wife should wear it in your new home... which you choose to live in... and ideally didn't not come there to live just like back in your old country because if so why did you come here in the first place. They do not wear it as a fashionable trend... rather something constrictive that is supposed to maintain them humble or what not... and it is a religious symbol which has not place in state/public insitutions.


It is something imposed by a society to keep women down. Furthermore things like veils create alieanation and isolation in a society where it is not custom to wear it... I will also say if we allow muslims to wear veils in europe... why do our women have to wear veils in some muslim nations? Anyways I digress from the original topic

 

[Maciamo]

So women and men are free to wear what they like, unless it is something you don't like (the veil) in which case they are not free to wear what they like?

What Duo meant is that in a country like Belgium or France, the law stipulates that you are free to wear whatever you want, and thus it is against the law for Muslims to impose the veil on their women, who may not want to wear it. Don't tell me that school girls wear the veil of their own will, especially when their non-Muslim class mates don't and they get marginalised because of that. That's why the French government passed a law to forbid religious symbols like the veil in public schools, so as to protect Muslim children from their families (wish Belgium could have the same law). In other words we could say that the rules of Islam conflict with the national laws or basic citizen rights.

Think about this : if the followers of a minority religion claimed it was necessary for them to practise human sacrifice in their religion, although that was obviously against the law, would you let them do it on the grounds of religious freedom or multiculturalism ?

 

[bossel]

I am sorry but if one wants to live in Europe then they must abide by the European way. [...] Everyone must respect the Civil code and customs here.

Then, you want me to emigrate, although my ancestors have lived in Europe for 1000s of years? I do not respect the customs here unless they suit my needs, I do not respect the Civil code unless it suits my needs (& unless there is a certain probability for punishment).

First you are a citizen of Europe then you have your ethnic roots.

I'm not 1st a citizen of Europe.
1st I am an individual.
2nd I am a Gladbacher (citizen of my hometown, or, even more, part of my hometown).
& that's it pretty much, I have a problem to feel like a German citizen & an even bigger problem to identify with some European identity (much too abstract).

and especially the rise of extremist Islam...

I doubt that many of the rioters were Muslim extremists.

Why is it I never hear of Bosnian Muslims protesting or feeling marginalized or discriminated in Europe ?

Overall too few of them? Perhaps not as many of them live in such crappy suburbs?

This is more like a cutural resentment/animosity that exist between communities who isolate themselves from the mainstream society

Nope, it's more like a failed city planning (dating back to the 60s & 70s). You have similar problems in Germany with blocks where these huge 70s buildings stand (many of those have been demolished by now). Luckily in Germany there were not such huge Ghettos with buildings like that, therefore the problems in Germany never reached the same level as in France.

what i meant to say is that the veil shouldn't be imposed on women..

But... the un-veiling should be imposed?

They do not wear it as a fashionable trend... rather something constrictive that is supposed to maintain them humble or what not

Is it? I know several German Muslima who are actually rather proud to wear a veil.

Furthermore things like veils create alieanation and isolation in a society where it is not custom to wear it...

Only if the host society is rather intolerant & a bit xenophobic.

I will also say if we allow muslims to wear veils in europe... why do our women have to wear veils in some muslim nations?

Ah, you mean, because these countries are intolerant & xenophobic, we should be as well?

Everyone can do what he/she wants in his own house as long as it's no hindrance to others.

What hindrance is there to others when someone wears a veil?

 

[Duo]

Then, you want me to emigrate, although my ancestors have lived in Europe for 1000s of years? I do not respect the customs here unless they suit my needs, I do not respect the Civil code unless it suits my needs (& unless there is a certain probability for punishment).

That's a rather weird outlook....

I'm not 1st a citizen of Europe.
1st I am an individual.
2nd I am a Gladbacher (citizen of my hometown, or, even more, part of my hometown).
& that's it pretty much, I have problem to feel like a German citizen & an even bigger problem to identify with some European identity (much too abstract).

I guess there is a difference in perception then. Maybe living in Brussels so long makes one develop a different outlook on Europe/The European identity and so forth. I don't find it to be so abstract as you make it. Be it connected by blood, land, language, way of life, and conciousness one may be part of the European identity.

I doubt that many of the rioters were Muslim extremists.

Was not saying they are... but the one who killed Van Gogh and the others who advocate it are..

Overall too few of them? Perhaps not as many of them live in such crappy suburbs?

Perhaps... or perhaps they are better integrated

Nope, it's more like a failed city planning (dating back to the 60s & 70s). You have similar problems in Germany with blocks where these huge 70s buildings stand (luckily many of those have been demolished by now). Luckily in Germany there were not such huge Ghettos with buildings like that, therefore the problems in Germany never reached the same level as in France.

So there is failed city planning in Belgium and France?

But... the un-veiling should be imposed?

Yes... it should be because Europe has established the rule of a secular society starting with the French Revolution and we can not go back in our tracks... our way of life is based on a rational secular logic or would you rather have churches starting to sell indulgences again ?

Is it? I know several German Muslima who are actually rather proud to wear a veil.

Of course they are... what else are they going to say if they were pounded with that thought since early in their childhood. What else are they going to say if that is the only identity they know and were taught to be? No one wants to feel inferior than the rest. They don't realise that the veil is something that restricts their freedom in many aspects of their daily life... just having to wear that veil in the hot summer days must cause quite some discomfort.

Only if the host society is rather intolerant & a bit xenophobic.

Or if the immigrants happen to be the same as well

Ah, you mean, because these countries are intolerant & xenophobic, we should be as well?

No.. defenetily not... but we should also stop being walked on...

What hindrance is there to others when someone wears a veil?

First of all it defies secularism, which dare I say has become sacrosant in most European societies... and secondly it creates the impression that the person is not fully integrated in the host society in which they are living... rather they are split faction that do not abide by our way of life that has evolved with the generations of our ancestors of this old continent.

 

[Maciamo]

2nd I am a Gladbacher (citizen of my hometown, or, even more, part of my hometown).

Oh, so you live even closer to Belgium than I thought. RockLee lives closer to you than from Duo.

Nope, it's more like a failed city planning (dating back to the 60s & 70s).

This may be true for the suburbs of Paris, but no for Belgian cities. In Brussels, immigrants live more in the centre than in the suburbs, and in buildings often over 100 years old. They have pretty well-located and nice neighbourhoods around Brussels' South and North Stations, right outside the historical centre. Unfortunately, they have become so dangerous that they are driving many people and businesses away. It has been improving a bit recentely, with more office buildings built around the South Station (the one for the Eurostar and Thalys TGV's), and a mini-Manhattan built around the North Station, both of which are close to the two biggest African immigrant neighbourhoods (St Giles and Schaerbeek).

What hindrance is there to others when someone wears a veil?

Personally I find it offensive that anybody should display their religiousness in public. That's why I refrain to visit some places in the US where people where stickers on their cars like "Jesus love us". I would like to live in a country with a prohibition on all such religious signs. It's harder to find nowadays than a country that allow them. For me it feels like if I were a Black living in a world with racist insults against Blacks posted everywhere. I think that I am not the only one to feel like this, otherwise the French government would not consider and adopt laws to ban displays of religiousness. I only wish it could be in every public place, and not just in public institutions.

 

[Ma Cherie]

You know, I find nothing wrong with secular nations, I think countries would be much better off if they were secular however, I'm getting the feeling that there's some bit of religious intolerance here. I mean, I don't find it offensive the least bit when muslim young women have on their veils. They're are simply respecting the traditions of their religion. I don't see why that would be offensive.

By the way Maciamo, in the US you'll will see people with bumper stickers that says, "Jesus love us." And you will also find bumper stickers that will read "Jesus sucks." You'll run into alot of things that are offensive if you come to any part of the US. But what's offensive and obscene here depends on the individual.

 

[Gaijin 06]

Don't tell me that school girls wear the veil of their own will, especially when their non-Muslim class mates don't and they get marginalised because of that.

I don't need to tell you that, you can find that out yourself if you read some of the schoolgirls (and other Muslim women) accounts of why they choose to wear the veil.

Many don't like the way young girls (including schoolgirls) are sexualised in Europe - and wear a veil to avoid the same treatment.

I find it interesting I had never seen this issue in Britain - we have had girls wearing veils for as long as I can remember and I never heard of it being a problem at all until the French banned them in public institutions.

 

[Gaijin 06]

Personally I find it offensive that anybody should display their religiousness in public. That's why I refrain to visit some places in the US where people where stickers on their cars like "Jesus love us". I would like to live in a country with a prohibition on all such religious signs.

I find that an incredibly intolerant attitude.

Do you object to stickers supporting football teams on cars?
Do you object to someone sticking a national flag on a car?

How about banning stickers or posters of political allegiance that people seem to like to put up around election times who show who they support?

 

[Ma Cherie]

I know what you mean Gaijin, I go to school with muslim young women and I've spoken to them, they choose to wear the veil, I've also met some who choose not to wear the veil. One had joked that it helps for when they're having a bad hair day. But that's the soul purpose of wearing the veil, it keeps them from being objects and in Islam it's gives them their repsect. I learned this from talking with them.

 

[Maciamo]

I don't need to tell you that, you can find that out yourself if you read some of the schoolgirls (and other Muslim women) accounts of why they choose to wear the veil.

It's always possible to find exceptions. I don't deny that some girls wear it voluntarily, but as Duo said, why is it that wearing the veil among Moroccans should be more common in Belgium or France then in Morocco ? They also should try to understand that such display of Muslimness is bound to be received negatively by a part of the indigenous population. If they don't, it means that they don't understand the local culture, and therefore are not well adapted/integrated. Secularism in France and Belgium has been the norm since the French Revolution over 200 years ago. It is has strong as religiousness is in Morocco. If they can't live with it, why not should a more religious society to emigrate, like the USA ?

When you read things like this, you could really wonder why they came to Europe, and why they decided to stay (and this is in the "more tolerant" UK) :

The second picture is of angry young British Muslims burning the Union Flag and shouting slogans in support of Osama Bin Laden outside a London mosque, a dramatic articulation of their radical rejection of Western values.

(Source :European Muslims search for identity)

Here are an account of Muslim women forced to wear the veil in "democratising Iraq" : Iraqi women 'forced to veil'

Then again, why is it always the Mulsims that complain about the law banning religious symbols in public institutions, and not the Christians, Jews, Sikhs, Buddhists or whatever ?

As well as having the biggest Muslim community in Europe, France also has the biggest Jewish one. While one Jewish group had no problem with the ban, the Grand Rabbi of France, Joseph Sitruk, opposed it.

I also would like to point out that in many countries (UK, Australia and Japan included), most schools impose students to wear a uniform, and even a particular haircut, which is an indirect way of banning religious clothes. I wonder what would be the Muslim reaction if France decided to re-impose a dress code in its public schools, with the same effects on religious symbols. Would that be more acceptable ? I doubt as it gives the students even less freedom as how to dress. They would probably complain that they should be allowed to wear a headscarf with the uniform. In Japanese schools, people can't even have piercing, tatooes, dyed hairs, too short or too long hair, etc. But nobody is complaining to the government, AFAIK.

I am sure that people in most Muslim countries (like Morocco) have less rights and freedom that peopel in France or Belgium. I find it unacceptable that immigrants should complain about a lack of rights in their host countries when their home country has evevn less rights and they didn't have the guts to fight for their rights in their home country (which is maybe partly why they emigrated).

I find it interesting I had never seen this issue in Britain - we have had girls wearing veils for as long as I can remember and I never heard of it being a problem at all until the French banned them in public institutions.

That is surely a cultural difference between France/Belgium and the UK. But I doubt that all "indigenous" British people have such warm feelings towards veils and mosques in their country.