G25 imperial Greek shift in Greeks and Italians + a comparison with qpAdm

ChatGPT, GIGO (Garbage In, Garbage Out) and when it is asked to create new knowledge, it hallucinates (i.e. it lies or is wrong). It will do well in some things as in summarizing existing knowledge just as long as the sources are reliable. Otherwise if you just feed the whole internet with its cesspool of mis and disinformation then forgetaboutit.
 
ChatGPT, GIGO (Garbage In, Garbage Out) and when it is asked to create new knowledge, it hallucinates (i.e. it lies or is wrong). It will do well in some things as in summarizing existing knowledge just as long as the sources are reliable. Otherwise if you just feed the whole internet with its cesspool of mis and disinformation then forgetaboutit.

I think it did a good job with the instances that I have presented. Now with plugins you can better hone your searched, and asked it strictly for reputable peer-reviewed sources. I asked it use only reputable sources, and no wikipedia; it did just that, and linked the sources.

One thing that is an issue however, is that it is prevented from reading many studies, because they are behind a paywall. To me that's a big disappointment.
 
Silly robot:
[FONT=Söhne]If f(x) is continuous and always rational in the segment then f(x) is constant?[/FONT]

No, it is not necessarily true that if a function f(x) is continuous and always rational on a segment, then f(x) is constant.
The fact that f(x) is continuous and always rational only guarantees that the function takes on rational values throughout the segment, but it does not imply that the function cannot vary or change its values within the rational numbers. There can be rational functions that are not constant.
To illustrate this, consider the function f(x) = x on the segment [0, 1]. This function is continuous and always rational (since every value of x in the segment [0, 1] is rational), but it is not constant. It varies linearly with x, taking on different rational values for different x values within the segment.
Therefore, the continuity and rationality of a function on a segment do not imply its constancy.


Completely wrong.

That's because it is not prioritized to solve it yet.

f4GUcqy.png
 
read and summarize this link: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...n-Greeks-and-Italians-a-comparison-with-qpAdm

ChatGPT:

In the forum thread you provided, the original poster, who identifies as a Greek Cypriot, discusses genetic models and the shifts they indicate in Greek and Italian populations over time. The key points from the discussion are:


The models discussed do not imply direct ancestry but instead show the shifts in genetic patterns over time. This is illustrated by comparing G25 genetic models and a tool called qpAdm, which are used to predict genetic ancestry.


The author argues that most of the Eastern Imperial admixture in Italians seems to have come directly from Greeks, particularly Greek West Anatolians. They contest the idea that these people came from various parts of the Empire, arguing instead that they were mostly Greek West Anatolians and islanders.


The author discusses shifts in Rome over time compared to modern Italians, suggesting that the Imperial Greek profile was diluted by North Italians, forming the modern Central Italian profile.


The author disputes claims that the Imperial Greek profile existed in Sicily from the Bronze-Iron age and that it came from Anatolian Greeks or Bronze Age Anatolians, arguing that these claims are false.


The author uses G25 and qpAdm models to illustrate these points, using Cypriots as an example due to their relative ease of modeling.


Please note that this is a forum post and the information may not be entirely accurate or comprehensive. The full thread might contain further points of discussion and counterarguments from other users. Due to time constraints, I was unable to fully explore the thread and provide a complete summary. This summary is based on the initial post and the most relevant points that were apparent from the beginning of the thread​1​.




does this make sense with history, pre-history, and genetic studies?


ChatGPT


The discussion in the forum post does align with certain historical and genetic understandings, but it's important to note that this is a complex area of study, with ongoing research and some debate.


Historically, there were extensive connections between Greece and Italy. In the 8th century BC, Greeks established colonies in southern Italy and Sicily in a period known as Magna Graecia. These Greek settlers had significant cultural and genetic influence on the regions they settled. The post's suggestion that much of the Eastern Imperial admixture in Italians came directly from Greeks is generally in line with these historical events.


The post's claim that Imperial Greek genetic influence in Italy was predominantly from West Anatolians also could make sense historically. Anatolia (modern-day Turkey) was home to many Greek-speaking communities in antiquity, particularly in its western regions. Many of these Greeks could have been part of the populations that migrated to Italy during the period of Magna Graecia.


However, it's important to note that genetic research on ancient populations is a rapidly evolving field, and interpretations can vary based on the models and assumptions used. Genetic influence can come from many sources over many generations, and it's often difficult to draw definitive conclusions about the origins and migrations of ancient populations. The assertions made in the forum post, while potentially valid interpretations of the data, are part of a larger conversation among genetic researchers.


Additionally, the post's dismissal of the existence of an Imperial Greek profile in Sicily from the Bronze-Iron age is a more contentious point. There is ongoing research and debate about the genetic makeup of ancient Sicilian populations and the influence of different cultures, including the Greeks, Phoenicians, and native Sicilian tribes. Some genetic studies have suggested a complex mix of influences that evolved over time.


In conclusion, while the post's discussion aligns with some historical and genetic research, it's part of a larger, complex conversation about the genetic history of Italy and Greece. The findings and interpretations in the field of genetic research can vary, and they continue to be refined as new methods and data become available.

I feel like this sums up the thread and topic quite nicely. Even if they did come from West Anatolia, it is possible they arrived in Magna Grecia. Also, there's the EBA to take into consideration; dismissing it creates contention.

Through axiomatic artificial intelligence, it is strident to assert that the Italian population was mostly replaced by Imperial era Anatolian immigrants, and that it is reflected in modern Italians.
 
Target: Kenshiro_scaled
Distance: 1.7354% / 0.01735410
47.4 1.Balkan-NorthEast_Italy_HRV_ALB_anc
20.4 0.Mycenaean_Greek_1350bc
16.8 5.Armenia_Aghitu_20BC
7.2 8.Slavic_RUS_Sunghir_1100AD
2.6 0.Antiquity_Greek(Aegean-West_Anatolia)1-200AD
2.2 9.North_African_Guanche
2.2 9.Turkic_Oghuz_ROU_Ploiesti_1000AD
1.2 5.Caucasus_BlackSea_Samsun_B_150BC
From North Apulia
 
Target: Kenshiro_scaled
Distance: 1.7354% / 0.01735410
47.4 1.Balkan-NorthEast_Italy_HRV_ALB_anc
20.4 0.Mycenaean_Greek_1350bc
16.8 5.Armenia_Aghitu_20BC
7.2 8.Slavic_RUS_Sunghir_1100AD
2.6 0.Antiquity_Greek(Aegean-West_Anatolia)1-200AD
2.2 9.North_African_Guanche
2.2 9.Turkic_Oghuz_ROU_Ploiesti_1000AD
1.2 5.Caucasus_BlackSea_Samsun_B_150BC
From North Apulia

You might be interested in trying the model proposed here
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...theory)/page10?p=667452&viewfull=1#post667452
 
I think this PCA I found is relevant: several mycenean samples from late bronze age Crete already plot in the contemporary eastern mediterranean continuum. This trend could have been interrupted after the bronze age collapse but likely restarted in the Iron Age. Samples from this era will be crucial in linking the Greek bronze age to the Greek hellenistic era and, indirectly, will probably serve as a fitting donor population for southern Italy.
IMG-20230524-134123.png
 
I think this PCA I found is relevant: several mycenean samples from late bronze age Crete already plot in the contemporary eastern mediterranean continuum. This trend could have been interrupted after the bronze age collapse but likely restarted in the Iron Age. Samples from this era will be crucial in linking the Greek bronze age to the Greek hellenistic era and, indirectly, will probably serve as a fitting donor population for southern Italy.
IMG-20230524-134123.png


most likely from the mycenean invasion of crete and the annexation of its remaining populace into mycenean society .................before the Dorian invasion of crete
 
most likely from the mycenean invasion of crete and the annexation of its remaining populace into mycenean society .................before the Dorian invasion of crete

Yes, this samples are from the late bronze age, after the myceneans arrival in Crete. But the interesting - even if not surprising - part is that some of them show additional pull towards BA Anatolia and are basically already along the contemporary eastern mediterranean continuum. If I have to place a bet, I would say that we'll see a similar dynamic in Iron age greek, with other individuals clustering in a similar position.

I say this because it seems that there is this assumption that during the hellenistic age there is a sudden change in Greek demography, with a strong pull toward anatolia. But I wouldn't rule out the hypothesis that this was a progressive and continuous process of interaction between the two shores of the Aegean sea and not a demographic revolution after the IV BC.
 
Yes, this samples are from the late bronze age, after the myceneans arrival in Crete. But the interesting - even if not surprising - part is that some of them show additional pull towards BA Anatolia and are basically already along the contemporary eastern mediterranean continuum. If I have to place a bet, I would say that we'll see a similar dynamic in Iron age greek, with other individuals clustering in a similar position.
I say this because it seems that there is this assumption that during the hellenistic age there is a sudden change in Greek demography, with a strong pull toward anatolia. But I wouldn't rule out the hypothesis that this was a progressive and continuous process of interaction between the two shores of the Aegean sea and not a demographic revolution after the IV BC.

the anatolian influence could be mycenean owned southern anatolian cities ( some ) plus rhodes and other islands ....before the trojan war ...................so some of these myceaneans could have moved around ie crete
 
Do we have any historical facts of this supposed massive migration of Anatolian Hellenistic Greeks into Macedonia to change the population so drastically. What precipitated it? I don't seem to recall any massive urban centers in Macedonia becoming so attractive to migrants. Certainly, extant archeology does not support a massive population movement.

We know that Athens then Rome then Constantinople attracted artists, artisans and intellectuals from all over but Macedonia?

There's an abstract about this:

https://i.imgur.com/d4yRFYK.png
 
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I think that social selection could explain the drift between Imperial to Late Antiquity samples, keep in mind that not a single migration could explain and also Rome lost most part of their individuals. Since infant mortality was low in those from lower classes and we could estimate that Higher classes might been more related to Ancient Republicans, than we have the answer.
Rome had 1.4million between 1-2th centuries and than got 100 thousands on 4th Century, even before Constantino the population declined.
Milan was formally the Capital of W.Roman since the late 4th century, so in fact a lot of Romans went Po's Valley during late antiquity, what could explain, at least partially, why Lombard Italians are similar to Iron Age Italians(Etruscan and Italic).
Original Italics were Urnfield-Like, similar to AUT_IA_La Tene probably, mixing with Local Terramare and Apennine Rassenic Like, and than we had Iron Age and Republican Italics, those whom have mixed with several Hellenic and others Near Eastern sources, and than in Imperial Area Several Migrations came from Near East Hellenistic Anatolia, building the biggest portion of Roman Commoners(mixed with plebeians from Italic Substractum). Most of them died without great contributions to the Italian Populations, but some could survive as they became rich and mixed with Patricians, Equestrians and Rich Plebeians.
Considering that Italy range from 7-14 Million between 1-2th century and became 3-8 Million in 4th Century, even before Justinian Age, when massive depopulation happened one more time(Justinian's Army Killed most of the Cities Population in Late Antiquity-Early Middle Ages), but we should keep that Urban Exodus played a massive whole before it, with the Slave Populational Decrease on 3th Century Crises(caused by famine), also slaves had the lowest fertility rates caused by poor material conditions.
 
Using Albania as proxy from Veneti is totally absurdist. Venetian were Urnfield Derived Este Culture + Euganoi(Rasseni-Etruscan), mixed with Several Carinthian, Lepontic and Bellovesus-Cisalpine sources, adding a bunch of North Illyrian Influence. Probably closer to eastern Etruscans than Illyrians from Albania LOL.
 
It can't be read, the resolution is too low

You have to manually stretch it out using your fingers. The "+" symbol only goes so far.
 
1. I made some simulations by removing Slavic of mainland Greeks, obviously i can't really know the actual profile of Pre-Slavic mainlanders, but they seem to have ranged from Calabrian in the North to Kos/Dodecanese/Cypriot like to the South. It's also confirmed about the Northern part from a leaked PCA about Hellenistic Greeks.

2. Possibly. Can you suggest a good Germanic proxy? Overall North Italians don't seem to have as much Germanic admix as some people claim.

Your first statement is super far-fetched. Am I reading you right? Mainland Greeks from the Classical through Hellenstic period were "Calabrian like" in the North (Northern Greece) to Aegean like in the South? That's putting a hell of a lot impetus on the Slavic settlements of the 7th c. You're suggesting that there was a seismic shift in the mainland population from Southern Ital and/or Eastern Aegean to Balkan like simply due to what have been described as isolated Slavic settlementas. There was varied Indo European admixture (Paleo-Balkan) in mainland Greeks beginning in the Early Bronze Age (particularly in the North) and this must of have continued following the Bronze Age collapse as more and more Northern shifted tribes moved South into the mainland. We still don't have Classical era samples so we don't know the profile of that population, however, I doubt seriously there was much genetic influx from the Near East or East Aegean (as you suggest) during the Hellenistic period. What would drive a massive influx from these learned Eastern centers into a rural, mountainous (relatively backward) environment? Remember it was Alexander who (and his general) who were always moving East or South. it was never the reverse.
 

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