Crime German train attack: Afghan refugee 'had IS flag in room'

[Voyager]

Yes, well, very Conservative Evangelical Protestants deny evolution and insist the earth was only created 6000 years ago. Shall we have a contest as to which is more absurd? It isn't at all helpful, in my opinion, to distort reality by only presenting the idiocies of one part of the world.

Sorry but it is neither helpfull to not point out any of these Dark Age idiocies , in my opinion. And this is one is realy enormous.:cool-vo you know there is a controversy on Earth flatness among intellectuals of muslim world always because , big problem, the Coran says that Earth is flat as a carpet.

The Greeks like Erasthotene measured the radius of the Earth in ... 3th century BC! Comprared to that , to be honest the Darwinism controversy looks ahead, rather bright and certainly more informative.

 

[Angela]

Sorry but it is neither helpfull to not point out any idiocies at all, in my opinion. And this is one is realy enormous.:cool-v:

I haven't failed to point out the problems facing Europe, or what I think of ISIS or any other kind of Islamic extremist terrorism, as you'd know if you had read my posts.

Too often, though, people who are concerned about these matters take a "holier than thou" approach which sometimes seems to verge into implying that these people are innately evil, or brutal, or stupid, which is not the truth. I'm not necessarily speaking of you, because I don't know you at all.

It also risks presenting an inaccurate world view to the many, it seems, rather under-educated young men who frequent "population genetics sites". Were the Milice choir boys, or Italian Fascisti for that matter? Is what ISIS is doing to Yezidi women worse than what Serb military groups did to Muslim women in the Balkans? Let's not even get into the Nazis. The only major difference, from what I can see, between the Nazis and ISIS in terms of brutality is that the Germans were good at mechanizing the slaughter of innocents.

So, while you have a perfect right to point out the idiocy of this iman's teachings, I have a perfect right to point out that beliefs like this are not the sole domain of Muslims.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Blowing out of proportion?! Is your amnesia acting up again? You just said this:

The proportion is: Whatever IS did to others, Europeans did this to others and themselves hundred fold more in last 100 years. This is the truth and proportion that you are conveniently avoiding, just to feel superior to every Muslim. Give me an example of IS cruelty and I will give you 100 examples from Europe of last 100 years!

And in case you got blind (conveniently) again, look at my Muslim bashing:

Look long at it and try memorizing, so we don't have same conversation again and again.

Just pay attention that I bash all religions equally when they deserve. I don't bash like you or gymn all believers of one religion, or defend all believers of my religion. This is a fundamental difference between me and you. I can see good and bad in all the people, unlike you who can't see the world through ethnic or religious divide, and black and white spectrum. The only "good Muslim is a dead Muslim" for you, right?


And who is denying this? Are you arguing with someone or talking to yourself?





In case you guys are slow today and missed all the nuances of this dramatic situation, here is explanation why it feels a bit weird. To have a maximum impact on local population, which are white christian Germans, you kill the local and not foreign tourists. Right? To increase "anti-immigrant" sentiment and Christian conservatism in the country, you as an immigrant should kill the local voters, but not Asian tourist. Right?

However, his action is consistent with IS philosophy of destroying tourist economy. We've seen it in attacks in Egypt, Tunisia and recently in France, affecting a budgets of these countries greatly. This is exactly what this lone wolf was trying to copy. This is what you guys missed in your posts. "Unfortunately" for him he missed a fact, that Germany is not a tourist economy like these other countries, and the impact of his action will be minimal for Germans' wallet. Much bigger impact on Germans and good Muslim immigrants escaping IS and looking for safe life in Europe, would be to kill native Germans. And that's why it seems a bit illogical what he did in the train. I hope it is clear now.

I try to figure out what point you tried to make here.

Mind you that Roman Empire collapsed in 100 years after Christianity became State Religion.

could you elaborate?

 

[bicicleur 2]

Just to get an idea from which kind of cultures these people come from and even more important as Angela and Lebrok stated there are also Muslims (or coming from a Muslim background) that are suffering from this kind of behavior (as you could well see in the link). I never thought I needed to explain that....but.....

yes, and I was telling that not only the culture from where they came played a role, but also the religious education they got in their youth
this Afghan attacker wasn't out to defend the honour of his family, he was out to kill as many 'infidels' as possible

and yes, shi'a muslims count sunni as 'infidels' and vice versa
and fundamentalist muslims consider muslims who are to tolerant versus non-muslims as infidels too

I didn't think I had to explain you again

 

[Maleth]

Sorry but it is neither helpfull to not point out any of these Dark Age idiocies , in my opinion. And this is one is realy enormous.:cool-vo you know there is a controversy on Earth flatness among intellectuals of muslim world always because of the Coran. Yes! Yes! they do!

The Greeks like Erasthotene measured the radius of the Earth in ... 3th century BC! Comprared to that , the Darwinism controversy looks rather bright and certainly more informative.

dont be too shocked Voyager. quote:- I defend the position that the bible is literally true and scientifically acurate, the earth is not Millions of years old. god made it all in six days, about 6000 years ago, just like he said, it was all destroyed in a big flood in the days of Noah, and Thats were the fossils come from - end quote

apparantly Jehova witnesses believe exactly the same thing :startled: :grin:

 

[davef]

The people who teach the 6000 year old earth concept aren't any better. They are going by a religious text just like the cleric.

 

[Maleth]

yes, and I was telling that not only the culture from where they came played a role, but also the religious education they got in their youth
this Afghan attacker wasn't out to defend the honour of his family, he was out to kill as many 'infidels' as possible

and yes, shi'a muslims count sunni as 'infidels' and vice versa
and fundamentalist muslims consider muslims who are to tolerant versus non-muslims as infidels too

I didn't think I had to explain you again

ah yes yes they really have nothing to do with each other....so bad i jumped into such an irrelevant subject..........

 

[Wanderlust]

Does it make you feel much better to say stupid thing like this?!!!

The more I consume, digest and process studies that show that there is a correlation between genes and one's disposition towards a conservative or liberal worldview, the less inclined I am to argue with some of these people because they almost quite literally can't help themselves and it just becomes an exercise in futility--that being said, on a public forum where they may be those who are impressionable and/or uninformed listening in and paying attention, certain ideas should always be confronted and argued.

We know that on an individual basis, genes may factor more in some people's way of being than it does in others (environment can be a powerful mitigator, but not always), and I believe that those who possess the most extreme (and oftentimes stubbornly fixed and irrational) worldviews, are led by genetic drives--and this is true for those on the extreme right and the extreme left. An extreme of any form lacks balance by definition. I try to think of how these seemingly primitive, complexity/nuance lacking drives would've served humanity in its early stages: There had to be those who lacked fear in an "extreme" way in order to throw themselves eagerly and selflessly in front of Sabretooth tigers and Wooly mammoths, whether for hunting or in defense; there also had to be those who preserved the safety and integrity of the group by way of an "extreme" aversion to opportunistic, warlike outsiders with their foreign and potentially dangerous pathogens. I tend to believe that these genetic drives and impulses live on in us--the problem is that in their extreme manifestations, they can be incongruent or incompatible with a modern world that is full of an ever growing complexity and nuance and requires equally complex and nuanced solutions.

Extreme leftists can be so open, flighty and fearless (read: wreckless) that they don't consider the ramifications of unfettered and indiscriminate immigration policies within the confines of a complex social and economic structure. And the extreme right wing can be so closed off, resistant to change and fear drenched that they don't see the ramifications of exclusionist, xenophobic immigration policies within the confines of a complex social and financial structure. :useless:

I guess my point is that unfortunately and frustratingly, the extremists tend to be genetically invulnerable to reason, but it's certainly fun to watch you try. lol

 

[LABERIA]

Sorry but it is neither helpfull to not point out any of these Dark Age idiocies , in my opinion. And this is one is realy enormous.:cool-vo you know there is a controversy on Earth flatness among intellectuals of muslim world always because of the Coran. Yes! Yes! they do!

The Greeks like Erasthotene measured the radius of the Earth in ... 3th century BC! Comprared to that , the Darwinism controversy looks rather bright and certainly more informative.

What's your point here? Is this video an example of what Arabs and muslims learn in their schools? If this problem persist, we need to open a new thread and discuss about this. If this video is the example of an idiot, tbh i don't understand why you posted here. The world is full with idiots. Four years ago there were people convinced that the year 2012 was the end of the world.
It's true that Erasthotene measured the radius of the Earth. But in the human history there are examples of people who died in prison or were burned alive only because they said, e pur si muove.
Let's try to make a serious discussion.

 

[Voyager]

So, while you have a perfect right to point out the idiocy of this iman's teachings, I have a perfect right to point out that beliefs like this are not the sole domain of Muslims.

Well apparently this imam try to justify his belief in Islam.
The problem is not us. I believe we are enough " over educated"

. I suppose you are living in America , I am living in France and I have the feeling you have no idea of the problem teachers, doctors etc face here. The problem of compatibility betweem our way of life and their rigid beliefs is overwhelming. Hospitals, School, Justice all of our society components are touched.

 

[Wanderlust]

Well apparently this imam try to justify his belief in Islam.
The problem is not us. I believe we are enough " over educated"

. I suppose you are living in America , I am living in France and I have the feeling you have no idea of the problem teachers, doctors etc face here. The problem of compatibility betweem our way of life and their rigid beliefs is overwhelming. Hospitals, School, Justice all of our society components are touched.

Sorry but France is the mother of Western Leftism run amok (which, in its most extreme, looks an awful lot like Stalinism). France does not try to integrate but assimilate. They want to completely remove any aspect of a foreigner's identity that is non-French in origin, which to some, understandably registers as another form of oppression. It's rooted in the misguided belief that "if we are all the same (in culture, values and beliefs), then there is no room for incompatibility" and that's a flawed worldview.

To reiterate: assimilation by way of erasing the individual to become a part of the whole is considered to be the grounds for social acceptance by extreme leftists/socialists because the idea is that everything becomes fair and equal if we are all essentially the same. In theory, that may seem plausible but it falls apart terribly in its execution--France exemplifies this. People are innately prone to xenophobia and bigotry, some more than others. In every society, there will always be those who are resistant to difference and like to feel better, superior and wield more privilege over others and so there are bound to be societal injustices. But the "we are all one," "diminish our differences" philosophy allows for injustices to go unchecked and the cries of those who are most vulnerable to go unheard or silenced because they're rebuffed with "it's in your mind" because "we are all one and united in France" when that's just not the lived and experienced truth.

Moreover, those who don't want to "lose" their cultural traits by way of assimilation are shamed and ignored because then the rationale becomes, "they make themselves a target because they refuse to change," which doesn't take into account the fact that there are those who won't like them or treat them fairly no matter how much they conform.

Lastly, a lot of the people of foreign origin in France come from places and peoples that were once brutalized by French imperialism and colonialism. Let's not act like there is no basis for some of their resentment and resistance to losing the ethnic/religious identities that were forcibly stripped from them in the first place. In my opinion, the chickens have come home to roost for France and it is the height of entitlement to then revictimize the people they victimized for centuries. This doesn't mean that I agree with abhorrent acts of terrorism, or that I'm justifying it. I'm just saying that at the very least, I understand the complex reasons for why it's happening. I'm not even a Frenchman and yet I get that. :wink:

 

[Angela]

Well apparently this imam try to justify his belief in Islam.
The problem is not us. I believe we are enough " over educated"

. I suppose you are living in America , I am living in France and I have the feeling you have no idea of the problem teachers, doctors etc face here. The problem of compatibility betweem our way of life and their rigid beliefs is overwhelming. Hospitals, School, Justice all of our society components are touched.

You're right, Voyager, in that I don't have the day to day experience that the French have, or even my own Italians, to a perhaps lesser scale, but I see enough when I'm there twice a year, and read enough about it to be very concerned. I hope I didn't give the impression that I'm not.

I just don't think that the fact that Muslim clerics are anti-science is really the issue, because a lot of Christian clerics are pretty anti-science too.

The problem is the more general one, I think, that the value systems of many of these immigrants are just too different from those of the host countries for there not to be conflict. I'm with you there.

 

[LeBrok]

I try to figure out what point you tried to make here.

Exactly the same as for last couple of years. Some people get it some don't. If you don't get it, you don't get it. Blame your genetics or education system. Perhaps you should stop debating and start listening only?

could you elaborate?

No. You are not going to get it.

 

[LeBrok]

Sorry but it is neither helpfull to not point out any of these Dark Age idiocies , in my opinion. And this is one is realy enormous.:cool-vo you know there is a controversy on Earth flatness among intellectuals of muslim world always because , big problem, the Coran says that Earth is flat as a carpet.

The Greeks like Erasthotene measured the radius of the Earth in ... 3th century BC! Comprared to that , to be honest the Darwinism controversy looks ahead, rather bright and certainly more informative.

I'm not sure if I understood your point right in the last sentence. Are you saying that you don't understand natural selection, but you laugh at others, who don't get that the earth is round or billions of years old?

 

[LeBrok]

The more I consume, digest and process studies that show that there is a correlation between genes and one's disposition towards a conservative or liberal worldview, the less inclined I am to argue with some of these people because they almost quite literally can't help themselves and it just becomes an exercise in futility--that being said, on a public forum where they may be those who are impressionable and/or uninformed listening in and paying attention, certain ideas should always be confronted and argued.

I came to same conclusions.

There had to be those who lacked fear in an "extreme" way in order to throw themselves eagerly and selflessly in front of Sabretooth tigers and Wooly mammoths, whether for hunting or in defense

This, and some brave who dared to leave homelands in face of coming Ice Age or desertification survived.

; there also had to be those who preserved the safety and integrity of the group by way of an "extreme" aversion to opportunistic, warlike outsiders with their foreign and potentially dangerous pathogens. I tend to believe that these genetic drives and impulses live on in us--the problem is that in their extreme manifestations, they can be incongruent or incompatible with a modern world that is full of an ever growing complexity and nuance and requires equally complex and nuanced solutions.

Exactly. We are not genetically predispose to do well and make smart choices in modern world, world of fast changes, new occupations and technologies. That's why so few of us can say what they want to become or to do in life. Well, beside having fun, playing games, dancing, singing, having sex, falling in love and having kids. Typical hunter gatherer stuff.

Extreme leftists can be so open, flighty and fearless (read: wreckless) that they don't consider the ramifications of unfettered and indiscriminate immigration policies within the confines of a complex social and economic structure. And the extreme right wing can be so closed off, resistant to change and fear drenched that they don't see the ramifications of exclusionist, xenophobic immigration policies within the confines of a complex social and financial structure. :useless:

That's the reason the moderate and reasonable Center usually wins in elections, however this crazy world these days pushed the left and right extremism into being leading forces.

 

[Tomenable]

it is worse than the darkest middle ages

Please stop insulting the founders of the principles of gender equality that we call feminism.

(watch the snippet from 2:43 to 2:50):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qf_mNiMKNlE#t=2m43s

The more I consume, digest and process studies that show that there is a correlation between genes and one's disposition towards a conservative or liberal worldview, the less inclined I am to argue with some of these people because they almost quite literally can't help themselves and it just becomes an exercise in futility (...)

Hmmm...

What is a good solution to this shortage of people with "liberal genes" in the European Union ??? Let me think...

I know! Let's import millions of immigrants from some of the most zealously conservative societies on Earth.

That should help. Definitely.

 

[Voyager]

dont be too shocked Voyager. quote:- I defend the position that the bible is literally true and scientifically acurate, the earth is not Millions of years old. god made it all in six days, about 6000 years ago, just like he said, it was all destroyed in a big flood in the days of Noah, and Thats were the fossils come from - end quote

apparantly Jehova witnesses believe exactly the same thing :startled: :grin:

Well so far, I am very very shocked not by evangelists, not by jehovah witnesses but only by muslims who slaughtered in the name of their own religion innocent french peoples or beheaded with a knife a french tourist reading coran sourates and so on.
Please, understand why I am polarized as a french by particular idiocies of these particular peoples.
Anybody can believe whatever they like it 's their right only if this doesn't kill us.
(for information, "to kill" appear more than 400 times in coran...)

 

[Maleth]

Well so far, I am very very shocked not by evangelists, not by jehovah witnesses but only by muslims who slaughtered in the name of their own religion innocent french peoples, one by one, or decapited a french tourist along reading coran sourates and so on and so on.
Please, understand why I am polarized as a french by particular idiocies of these particular peoples.
Anybody can believe whatever they like it 's their right only if this doesn't kill us.
(for information, "to kill" appear more than 400 times in coran...)

I can imagine, but my comment (and probably others) are directed towards the anti science link in the name of religion you have posted. I HOPE we are allowed to compare. As to the slaying of innocent people its barbaric and no words can describe really. Its always felt hardest and deepest when its close to home. France is not the only one. Turkey, Lebanon, Bangladesh, Syria (the most), Iraq, USA, Pakistan to mention a few had also hundreds of slained innocent people. Not that is any consolation. As you can see many are Muslim countries and even if their suffering is not given an degree of publicity my heart goes out for them too.

There are many threads that deal with Islam and the Quran on this site such as this

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-tolerance-toward-non-Muslims?highlight=Quran

you can always give your contribution on the subject.

 

[Voyager]

To reiterate: assimilation by way of erasing the individual to become a part of the whole is considered to be the grounds for social acceptance by extreme leftists/socialists because the idea is that everything becomes fair and equal if we are all essentially the same. In theory, that may seem plausible but it falls apart terribly in its execution--France exemplifies this. People are innately prone to xenophobia and bigotry, some more than others. In every society, there will always be those who are resistant to difference and like to feel better, superior and wield more privilege over others and so there are bound to be societal injustices. But the "we are all one," "diminish our differences" philosophy allows for injustices to go unchecked and the cries of those who are most vulnerable to go unheard or silenced because they're rebuffed with "it's in your mind" because "we are all one and united in France" when that's just not the lived and experienced truth.

Moreover, those who don't want to "lose" their cultural traits by way of assimilation are shamed and ignored because then the rationale becomes, "they make themselves a target because they refuse to change," which doesn't take into account the fact that there are those who won't like them or treat them fairly no matter how much they conform.

I think your approach is too theoritical. It's true that Politics principle is equality etc... but realy , most of the migrants cope with that, many european migrants came from Poland, Portugual, Spain, Italy , Eastern Europe all of these migrants brought a lot to France and their descent are perfectly integrated , each with their own identity, and they didn't generate any integration problems, not as big as we have with the new waves from Africa, why? Here is the key question. Why is it working fine with some and not with others?

Lastly, a lot of the people of foreign origin in France come from places and peoples that were once brutalized by French imperialism and colonialism.

I heard different stories on colonialism. Of course it 's not easy to judge a 19th cent. society with 21st cent. eyes. Brutality and misery were everywhere, the french state was also brutal with french peoples, Justice sent you convict years to Cayenne for just robbering a piece of bread also true in UK.We All know the Miserable of Victor Hugo. Using such argument it's victimization methods. In other hands a lot of effort done by the french to settle these land must not be ignored, a lot of french colon waves, usualy unemployed miserable peoples, were sent wave after wave decimated by malaria to settle these lands in Algeria infested by mosquitoes at the begining of Colonization. Finaly , Algeria was a major european wheat provider during 19th cent. Nowadays, Algeria depends on wheat importation from Europe. The better proof I think, ask yourself if the french colonization was a so terrible experience why so many people from our ex colonies wished to come in France? It must be masochism.
But I agree colonization was a big mistake, too much investment for too many troubles.

 

[Wanderlust]

Hmmm...

What is a good solution to this shortage of people with "liberal genes" in the European Union ??? Let me think...

Well it would certainly be hard to find them in much of Eastern Europe. What is so irritating about your worldview is that you believe that you are somehow an exception to your own rule when you are the very definition of what you despise most in fundamentalist Muslims. If the European Union wants to oust people from "zealously" conservative societies, like ones that hold the largest far right nationalist march in Europe (ahem *POLAND* ahem), or ones where the far right political leaders are controlling the media and manipulating the courts in order to support their pseudo-fascist, Eurosceptic agenda (ahem *POLAND* ahem), then they would start by getting rid of you.

It's amazing that you paint Muslims as dangerous, violent, out of touch barbarians and yet the far right within your own society, that you support, behaves no better. Why should the European Union have to tolerate any of you? If you don't want to share the European Union's burdens, which includes immigration from the most problematic places on Earth, remove yourself. And then let's see how you fare.
https://youtu.be/PnC-zSdMSRo

LOL@ the 3:23 mark where it shows that some of the nationalists who fear being overrun by brown Muslim hordes are using rap music to spread their message. Am I to conclude that they would be more sympathetic to African-American immigrants? LOL Evidently, "the police" do not regard your group or theirs with much sympathy. Is that where the bond lies?

Seriously, I watched that video and at times, it appears to me that I'm looking at a lower-class immigrant suburb in Sweden but really, they are young white nationalists in Poland, who also seem to be disaffected and feel disenfranchised and kept out of economic progress. Hmmmmm...sounds familiar. But I'm guessing not to you. :useless:

At the 8:40 mark, you see how the Catholic Church, "the heart of Poland," lends support to these often violent ultra-nationalist groups. Hmmm....sounds kind of like an Imam giving their support to jihadists. And I'm sure you still don't see the parallels.