Germanic loanwords in Albanian

Niccoleo

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Hello everyone,

I recently read Vladimir Orels Albanian Etymological Dictionary.
I noticed that there are some Germanic loanwords into Albanian, particularly from Gothic.

A few of them are:

Akull (ice) Loanword from jakulaz (icicle, glacier)
burg (prison, stable)from *burg (borough, fenced)
burrë (man, husband) from gibüro (peasant, villager)
cub (robber, brigand) from piubs, diob (thief)

The list goes on. There are other german loanwords, however, many of them are clearly borrowed via Latin (Romance) or South Slavic. Some of the words however, seem to have been borrowed from direct contact and at an earlier stage of proto albanian. For instance, for the word 'Akull', Vladimir Orel claims that " In Albanian, the source may be East Germanic (Balkan Gothic?). The loss of the anlaut *j-, probably, shows that the loan penetrated into Proto-Albanian at a stage when there was no j-like sound there.

Now considering that these words are found in both Albanian Dialects I am assuming they must predate Albanian-Slavic contacts. Also, apparently Goths entered the Balkans as early as the 3rd Century BC.

What are your thoughts on this? Any idea when ( if ever) this contact really happened? Any ideas or info on a more specific contact zone between Proto- Albanian and Germanic? I think if we could deduce a more specific contact zone, we would find more info on the actual area where Proto- Albanian was spoken. Also do you think that some of the R1b haplogroup found among Albanians ( up to 21%) could be originally Germanic, as I have no info on the specificity of R1b among Albanians?
 
Hello everyone,

I recently read Vladimir Orels Albanian Etymological Dictionary.
I noticed that there are some Germanic loanwords into Albanian, particularly from Gothic.

A few of them are:

Akull (ice) Loanword from jakulaz (icicle, glacier)
burg (prison, stable)from *burg (borough, fenced)
burrë (man, husband) from gibüro (peasant, villager)
cub (robber, brigand) from piubs, diob (thief)

The list goes on. There are other german loanwords, however, many of them are clearly borrowed via Latin (Romance) or South Slavic. Some of the words however, seem to have been borrowed from direct contact and at an earlier stage of proto albanian. For instance, for the word 'Akull', Vladimir Orel claims that " In Albanian, the source may be East Germanic (Balkan Gothic?). The loss of the anlaut *j-, probably, shows that the loan penetrated into Proto-Albanian at a stage when there was no j-like sound there.

Now considering that these words are found in both Albanian Dialects I am assuming they must predate Albanian-Slavic contacts. Also, apparently Goths entered the Balkans as early as the 3rd Century BC.

What are your thoughts on this? Any idea when ( if ever) this contact really happened? Any ideas or info on a more specific contact zone between Proto- Albanian and Germanic? I think if we could deduce a more specific contact zone, we would find more info on the actual area where Proto- Albanian was spoken. Also do you think that some of the R1b haplogroup found among Albanians ( up to 21%) could be originally Germanic, as I have no info on the specificity of R1b among Albanians?

thanks, but goth words are around in the balkans and Italy as the goths stayed over 200 years there.
here is a venetian one.

Getar = to pour in gothic
in venetian to pour is Getar ( to pour or cast iron molds).....same
-this word became the word geto which means a foundry to pour molds of iron
- after its disuse/relocation, the geto became home to some jews in Venice, who included a H letter as the jews could not pronounce the ex-foundry living area the same as the venetian without the H, so it became a Gheto
- after that the word was to mean a living area of jews ...................so, an example of how words change over time from there original meaning to something completely different
 
Albanians have R1b-ht35. It is Armenian/Anatolian branch, no German-Celtic.

I gave theme about Thracians spoke Balto Slavic. A lot of Albanian words is from Baltic or Balto Slavic languages. There was no contact zone between Germans and ancestors of today's Albanians. Contact zone was between Thracians/Baltic people and Albanians. In another words ancestors of today's Albanians adopt some East Germanic words over Baltic people/Thracians.

Albanians, especially Geg Albanians today have the highest percent E-V13 in the Balkans, but they have no I2a, haplogroup which is significant at all Balkan people, even Greeks. Maybe ancestors of Albanians moved with some another place.
 
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Hello everyone,

I recently read Vladimir Orels Albanian Etymological Dictionary.
I noticed that there are some Germanic loanwords into Albanian, particularly from Gothic.

A few of them are:

Akull (ice) Loanword from jakulaz (icicle, glacier)
burg (prison, stable)from *burg (borough, fenced)
burrë (man, husband) from gibüro (peasant, villager)
cub (robber, brigand) from piubs, diob (thief)

The list goes on. There are other german loanwords, however, many of them are clearly borrowed via Latin (Romance) or South Slavic. Some of the words however, seem to have been borrowed from direct contact and at an earlier stage of proto albanian. For instance, for the word 'Akull', Vladimir Orel claims that " In Albanian, the source may be East Germanic (Balkan Gothic?). The loss of the anlaut *j-, probably, shows that the loan penetrated into Proto-Albanian at a stage when there was no j-like sound there.

Now considering that these words are found in both Albanian Dialects I am assuming they must predate Albanian-Slavic contacts. Also, apparently Goths entered the Balkans as early as the 3rd Century BC.

What are your thoughts on this? Any idea when ( if ever) this contact really happened? Any ideas or info on a more specific contact zone between Proto- Albanian and Germanic? I think if we could deduce a more specific contact zone, we would find more info on the actual area where Proto- Albanian was spoken. Also do you think that some of the R1b haplogroup found among Albanians ( up to 21%) could be originally Germanic, as I have no info on the specificity of R1b among Albanians?

I have similar theories (read my other posts). In a nutshell: the Illyrians (2000 BC and earlier) were a mix of germanic settlers and local Pelazgian population. That's why Albanian and Germanic languages have a lot of common roots that are not found in Slavic or Latin. There is no study to date that breaks down Albanian R1b in subgroups, but according to data that I have gathered, about 10-15% of Albanian males have Germanic or Celtic R1b, 5-10% have the older clades found in the East. Then there is a lot of I1 and I2b, especially in the South-East where you have villages where everybody is blonde. The E-v13 is mostly concentrated in the North and coresponds with the Pelazgian native population.
 
Hello everyone,

I recently read Vladimir Orels Albanian Etymological Dictionary.
I noticed that there are some Germanic loanwords into Albanian, particularly from Gothic.

A few of them are:

Akull (ice) Loanword from jakulaz (icicle, glacier)
burg (prison, stable)from *burg (borough, fenced)
burrë (man, husband) from gibüro (peasant, villager)
cub (robber, brigand) from piubs, diob (thief)

The list goes on. There are other german loanwords, however, many of them are clearly borrowed via Latin (Romance) or South Slavic. Some of the words however, seem to have been borrowed from direct contact and at an earlier stage of proto albanian. For instance, for the word 'Akull', Vladimir Orel claims that " In Albanian, the source may be East Germanic (Balkan Gothic?). The loss of the anlaut *j-, probably, shows that the loan penetrated into Proto-Albanian at a stage when there was no j-like sound there.

Now considering that these words are found in both Albanian Dialects I am assuming they must predate Albanian-Slavic contacts. Also, apparently Goths entered the Balkans as early as the 3rd Century BC.

What are your thoughts on this? Any idea when ( if ever) this contact really happened? Any ideas or info on a more specific contact zone between Proto- Albanian and Germanic? I think if we could deduce a more specific contact zone, we would find more info on the actual area where Proto- Albanian was spoken. Also do you think that some of the R1b haplogroup found among Albanians ( up to 21%) could be originally Germanic, as I have no info on the specificity of R1b among Albanians?
Since some Goths settled in Balkans,is quite normal that Albanian have borrowings from East Germanic languages.
As for paternal lines,there is I1 and I2 clades,that are associated with Germanics,in Albanians,as for E-V13,G,R1B,R1A,those need to be analyzed by sub-clades.
Since I think there are E-V13 and G clades that are present at Germanics mostly (E-V13 is also found in significant numbers in Austria,some clades of G were found in some graveyard from Germany); as for R1B and R1A there is known that are from these clades that are present at Germanic people.
 
There is no study to date that breaks down Albanian R1b in subgroups, but according to data that I have gathered, about 10-15% of Albanian males have Germanic or Celtic R1b, 5-10% have the older clades found in the East.

Facts?

According Lucotte et al. 2013, Albanians have 14.7% R1b ht35 (Armenian/Anatolian haplotype). It is the highest score in the Balkans.

You can see in Eupedia Albanian R1b is 16%. It means only 1.3% can be Celtic-Germanic.

I know, Geg Albanians have slightly higher percentage R1b.

Geg Albanians can have 5-7% Celtic-Germanic R1b, it is similar or less compared with other Balkan countries.

Tosk Albanians probably have smaller R1b Cetic Germanic.

For example at Serbs R1b ht35 is 2.3% (Lucotte et al.). It means Serbs have about 5-7% Celtic-Germanic R1b.

If we see R1b ht35 it shows that link between Albanians and Germans don't exist.

R1b ht35 Armenian/Anatolian haplotype (Lucotte et al.)

Albanians 14.7%
Greeks 13.2%
Romanians 10.3%
Hungarians 7.4%
Bulgarians 6.5%
Bosniacs 4.2%
Croats 3.1%
Serbs 2.3%
Austrians 1.1%
Germans 0
 
Albanians have R1b-ht35. It is Armenian/Anatolian branch, no German-Celtic.

I gave theme about Thracians spoke Balto Slavic. A lot of Albanian words is from Baltic or Balto Slavic languages. There was no contact zone between Germans and ancestors of today's Albanians. Contact zone was between Thracians/Baltic people and Albanians. In another words ancestors of today's Albanians adopt some East Germanic words over Baltic people/Thracians.

Albanians, especially Geg Albanians today have the highest percent E-V13 in the Balkans, but they have no I2a, haplogroup which is significant at all Balkan people, even Greeks. Maybe ancestors of Albanians moved with some another place.
*****. Do something else in life.
 
Facts?

According Lucotte et al. 2013, Albanians have 14.7% R1b ht35 (Armenian/Anatolian haplotype). It is the highest score in the Balkans.

You can see in Eupedia Albanian R1b is 16%. It means only 1.3% can be Celtic-Germanic.

I know, Geg Albanians have slightly higher percentage R1b.

Geg Albanians can have 5-7% Celtic-Germanic R1b, it is similar or less compared with other Balkan countries.

Tosk Albanians probably have smaller R1b Cetic Germanic.

For example at Serbs R1b ht35 is 2.3% (Lucotte et al.). It means Serbs have about 5-7% Celtic-Germanic R1b.

If we see R1b ht35 it shows that link between Albanians and Germans don't exist.

R1b ht35 Armenian/Anatolian haplotype (Lucotte et al.)

Albanians 14.7%
Greeks 13.2%
Romanians 10.3%
Hungarians 7.4%
Bulgarians 6.5%
Bosniacs 4.2%
Croats 3.1%
Serbs 2.3%
Austrians 1.1%
Germans 0


Interesting article. Thanks for finding it. This is what it says:
...
Five such areas, classified in decreasing percentage order,
are prominent on the map; (1) Calabria, 33.1%. (2) The Napoli region in Italy, 14.8%,
and Sicily, 7.1%. (3) The Balkan region, especially Albania, 14.7%. (4) Greece, 13.2%.
(5) Romania, 10.3%. Figure 2 represents the European part of the geographical map
showing higher ht35 percentages.
...
According to Semino et al. (2000b), the ht35 distribution reflects the re-peopling of
Europe from Asia Minor during the Late Upper Paleolithic and Holocene.

...

In Albania they tested only 34 people (which is a joke), which means they only went to one city, probably Tirana.
So upon careful observation this confirms instead of contradicting me, I said the Germanic R1b is concentrated in South Albania which is
far from Tirana.
 
Yes, L23 is the dominant Caucasus/ middle eastern branch and IS present in parts of Greece and southern italy. The Greeks would have brought some to southern italy. The Armenians, for example, have 30% R1b, of which the vast majority belongs to the L23 clade, same for turkey (but lower r1b frequencies).
 
Well,can people who knows Albanian to try post some cognates with Germanic?
Since this was the subject of the thread.
 
Well,can people who knows Albanian to try post some cognates with Germanic?
Since this was the subject of the thread.
just a few...but there is common roots left and right...

Alb - English - Old Norse
pjek - bake - baka
kullote (bald field) - bald - kollottr
laj - bath - laug
beteje - battle - bardagi
ndyr - beast - dyr
blete - bee - by
filli - first - fyrsta
ja - beside - hja
ikje - betray - svikja
midis - between - midli
matan - beyond - utan
madh, mall - big - mikill
buce - bi*ch- bikkja
erret- black blar - svartr
prisht - break - bresta
fund - end - enda
ngre - build - gorr
bren - burn - brenna
ble, kap - buy - kaupa
kotele - cat - kottr
i mir (good) - chief - hilmir
roba - clothes - ript
hajte - come to - hitta
urdha - command - bjoda
shok - company - sjot
fshehen - hide - verstecken
fitoj - conquer - vinna
agon - dawn - daga, dagan
dita - dawn - dagr
dekur - dead - daudr
vdekur - dead - feigr
dashur - dear - dyrr
fte - declare - kveda
vone - delay - dvol
jo - deny - synja
prite (stop it) - deny - preta
rrena (lie) - deprive of - rena
dreka(lunch) - drink - drekka
 
just a few...but there is common roots left and right...

Alb - English - Old Norse
pjek - bake - baka
kullote (bald field) - bald - kollottr
laj - bath - laug
beteje - battle - bardagi
ndyr - beast - dyr
blete - bee - by
filli - first - fyrsta
ja - beside - hja
ikje - betray - svikja
midis - between - midli
matan - beyond - utan
madh, mall - big - mikill
buce - bi*ch- bikkja
erret- black blar - svartr
prisht - break - bresta
fund - end - enda
ngre - build - gorr
bren - burn - brenna
ble, kap - buy - kaupa
kotele - cat - kottr
i mir (good) - chief - hilmir
roba - clothes - ript
hajte - come to - hitta
urdha - command - bjoda
shok - company - sjot
fshehen - hide - verstecken
fitoj - conquer - vinna
agon - dawn - daga, dagan
dita - dawn - dagr
dekur - dead - daudr
vdekur - dead - feigr
dashur - dear - dyrr
fte - declare - kveda
vone - delay - dvol
jo - deny - synja
prite (stop it) - deny - preta
rrena (lie) - deprive of - rena
dreka(lunch) - drink - drekka

Kamani
Good post, for discussion.
Every of these words can have roots in some language closer to Albanian.

Random selection

Pjek peći (Serbian), root peć (N.), you can see: pekar etc., no baka (Old Norge)
Kullote probably from kel (Turkish)
Laj can be from Latin, lavacrum etc.
Beteje bitka (Serbian) root biti (Verb.), no bardagi (Old Norge)
Ndyrë netirs (Latvian)
Blete bite (Lithuanian), no by (Old Norge)
Ikje can be from ihanet (Turkish)
Madh probably from mare (Romanian), no mikill (Old Norge )
Dita Diena (Lithuanian), no dagr (Old Norge)

If you want I can find every from these words and find closer link with some another language.

Old Norge and German languages have no link with Albanian, they are Centum, Albanian is Satem as Balto Slavic and Thracian/Dacian

Albanian language has a lot Balto Slavic words, for example Professor Gustav Mayer claimed that Albanian is brother of Lithuanian language, it can be linked probably because Albanian has borrowed much from Dacian, and Dacian was one of variant of the Thracian, and there is a theory that Thracian is Baltic (Balto Slavic).

Albanian is the closest to Dacian and Balto Slavic.

Maybe partly Albanian can have similarity with Armenian (for Armenian there is link because about 15% Albanians have Armenian haplotype R1b ht35)

According Albanian luinguists Albanian borrowed about 600 words of Latin, Albanian borrowed 1.100 words from Turkish, also Albanian has words from Afro-Asiatic languages. Only 30 words in Albanian can be brought to the Illyrian (about 1.000 Illyrian words is known), and it can be borrowed from other Balkan people who had closer link with Illyrian.

Due similarity Albanian with Dacian and Balto Slavic languages a lot of scientists think that original place ancestors of today's Albanian is somewhere in Romania (maybe it can be Bessarabia too, or some space in that region).

I saw somewhere that Albanians find similar words with Old Prussian. But Old Prussian is not German language, it is Baltic (Balto Slavic).
 
Kamani
Good post, for discussion.
Every of these words can have roots in some language closer to Albanian.

Random selection

Pjek peći (Serbian), root peć (N.), you can see: pekar etc., no baka (Old Norge)
Kullote probably from kel (Turkish)
Laj can be from Latin, lavacrum etc.
Beteje bitka (Serbian) root biti (Verb.), no bardagi (Old Norge)
Ndyrë netirs (Latvian)
Blete bite (Lithuanian), no by (Old Norge)
Ikje can be from ihanet (Turkish)
Madh probably from mare (Romanian), no mikill (Old Norge )
Dita Diena (Lithuanian), no dagr (Old Norge)

If you want I can find every from these words and find closer link with some another language.

Old Norge and German languages have no link with Albanian, they are Centum, Albanian is Satem as Balto Slavic and Thracian/Dacian

Albanian language has a lot Balto Slavic words, for example Professor Gustav Mayer claimed that Albanian is brother of Lithuanian language, it can be linked probably because Albanian has borrowed much from Dacian, and Dacian was one of variant of the Thracian, and there is a theory that Thracian is Baltic (Balto Slavic).

Albanian is the closest to Dacian and Balto Slavic.

Maybe partly Albanian can have similarity with Armenian (for Armenian there is link because about 15% Albanians have Armenian haplotype R1b ht35)

According Albanian luinguists Albanian borrowed about 600 words of Latin, Albanian borrowed 1.100 words from Turkish, also Albanian has words from Afro-Asiatic languages. Only 30 words in Albanian can be brought to the Illyrian (about 1.000 Illyrian words is known), and it can be borrowed from other Balkan people who had closer link with Illyrian.

Due similarity Albanian with Dacian and Balto Slavic languages a lot of scientists think that original place ancestors of today's Albanian is somewhere in Romania (maybe it can be Bessarabia too, or some space in that region).

I saw somewhere that Albanians find similar words with Old Prussian. But Old Prussian is not German language, it is Baltic (Balto Slavic).
I think is a forged theory,about Albanian which borrowed so many words from Turkish.
I will give an example,of word,present in Romanian,Albanian and Iranian,which is said to be borrowed from Turkish:
english - trousers - albanian - corape - romanian cognate is ciorap (which means socks) - iranian jwrab - which also means socks.
The cognate is in all 3 languages from Turkish?
How this make more sense that Turks got it from some Satem speakers,instead?
Not to mention that Serbian,Bosnian and Croatian also have this word,carape.
 
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I think is a forged theory,about Albanian which borrowed so many words from Turkish.
I will give an example,of word,present in Romanian,Albanian and Iranian,which is said to be borrowed from Turkish:
english - trousers - albanian - corape - romanian cognate is ciorap (which means socks) - iranian jwrab - which also means socks.
The cognate is in all 3 languages from Turkish?
How this make more sense that Turks got it from some Satem speakers,instead?
Not to mention that Serbian,Bosnian and Croatian also have this word,carape.

It is from Albanian sources. And all languages of the people who was under Ottoman rule took something from Turkish.

You can see in Wikipedia for Albanian:

The rise of the Ottoman Empire meant an influx of Turkish words; this also entailed the borrowing of Persian and Arabic words through Turkish. Many Albanian names (such as Enver Hoxha) are of Turkish origin.

But it doesn't matter, I just mentioned (in context) and it is not relevant to the topic unless it appears a word borrowed from Turkish.
 
It is from Albanian sources. And all languages of the people who was under Ottoman rule took something from Turkish.

You can see in Wikipedia for Albanian:

The rise of the Ottoman Empire meant an influx of Turkish words; this also entailed the borrowing of Persian and Arabic words through Turkish. Many Albanian names (such as Enver Hoxha) are of Turkish origin.

But it doesn't matter, I just mentioned (in context) and it is not relevant to the topic unless it appears a word borrowed from Turkish.
Well that is a theory that was supported by some wise population from Turkey,which at their origin,where some very wise Europeans who sold their opinions and intelligence to Turks,cause they were having lots of money.
Is happens same today.
At least,this is what I think.
Please,show me some Altaiac population (I mean some Turkic language speakers) that have this word,corap.
I searched for Kazakh for example,I found the word written in some kind of cyrilic and is:
shұlyktar I guess,the word written in that cyrilic was:
шұлыктар
 
Well that is a theory that was supported by some wise population from Turkey,which at their origin,where some very wise Europeans who sold their opinions and intelligence to Turks,cause they were having lots of money.
Is happens same today.
At least,this is what I think.
Please,show me some Altaiac population (I mean some Turkic language speakers) that have this word,corap.
I searched for Kazakh for example,I found the word written in some kind of cyrilic and is:
shұlyktar I guess,the word written in that cyrilic was:
шұлыктар

Good finding. It can be interesting topic, all Balkan peoples have less or more Turkish words, but maybe some of them are not Turkish. Of course, it is for new theme.
 
Albanian language has a lot Balto Slavic words, for example Professor Gustav Mayer claimed that Albanian is brother of Lithuanian language

Lithuanian and Old Norse have common word roots because of proximity and because they both borrowed from similar non-IE existing populations, so a finding a Lithuanian cognate in Albanian might actually enforce the Germanic link.
Of course Albanian has borrowed words from Slavic and Turkish, but those are obvious links because of proximity and documented history. Finding cognates in something Germanic is more fun, because there is no documented history, which indicates an early migration. And then it becomes a matter of how many, how close, and how unique are those cognates. But I'm curious to see if for the words provided there are real cognates between Old Norse and Serbian.
 
Lithuanian and Old Norse have common word roots because of proximity and because they both borrowed from similar non-IE existing populations, so a finding a Lithuanian cognate in Albanian might actually enforce the Germanic link.
Of course Albanian has borrowed words from Slavic and Turkish, but those are obvious links because of proximity and documented history. Finding cognates in something Germanic is more fun, because there is no documented history, which indicates an early migration. And then it becomes a matter of how many, how close, and how unique are those cognates. But I'm curious to see if for the words provided there are real cognates between Old Norse and Serbian.

Albanian is Satem language,so except the proximity to the East Germanic tribes,that passed or settled in Balkans,they could not have any links to Germanics so how you want Albanian to have cognates with Old Norse?
if Maciamo would do some more detailed maps of Balkanic admixture,from K36 results and other admixtures you will see how nice Balkanic admixture at significant percentages covers Balkans,Romania,Slavic and Balto-Slavic speaking countries (Romania is speaking now Centum language,however,Thraco-Dacians,which ruled this land,were Satem speakers).
As for the presence of this admixture at Greeks,Greeks mixed heavily with Thracians,so no wonder.
(EDIT:
Yes,I know there is not enough data at the moment,to try make such maps of K36 balkanic admixture,but I hope will be enough in the future).
 
Lithuanian and Old Norse have common word roots because of proximity and because they both borrowed from similar non-IE existing populations, so a finding a Lithuanian cognate in Albanian might actually enforce the Germanic link.
Of course Albanian has borrowed words from Slavic and Turkish, but those are obvious links because of proximity and documented history. Finding cognates in something Germanic is more fun, because there is no documented history, which indicates an early migration. And then it becomes a matter of how many, how close, and how unique are those cognates. But I'm curious to see if for the words provided there are real cognates between Old Norse and Serbian.

Serbian, as other South Slavic languages, is Balto Slavic, and it has a lot of words similar with today's Lithuanian and Latvian. And Balto Slavic borrowed words from Germanic (and vice versa), so it has Scandinavian words. It is all same IE root. And Albanian and Serbian have a lot same or similar words.

But one of main difference from German, today's and old variants, is division Satem Centum. Serbian and all Balto Slavic languages, as Thracian/Dacian, are Satem. And Albanian is Satem. German, Italian, French etc. languages are Centum.

Haplogroups are not neccessary related to language but it is clear that IE languages are reflection of the spread R haplogroup, both R1a and R1b branches. Surely E-V13 had own Afro-Asiatic language, and J2 too, etc. But today they speak IE language, some of Afro-Asiatic words have survived.

It is true for I haplogroup too. Both, I1 and I2 once had own language but throughout history they have been merged into dominant Indo European languages. In the Balkans there are people who try to find "lost" I2a language, but it doesn't exist, as doesn't exist "lost" language of I1 carriers. I2a have been merged with R1a as I1 have been merged with R1b (Of course this is a simplistic, things are more complex, but for the purpose of this writing is enough).

Thus, although the original language of the bearers of some haplogroups was not IE language, today their descendants speak IE language during the process of adoption and/or assimilation.
 
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