Greece and the Oriental question.

eupator said:
Very interesting perspective focusing on the evolution of musical themes in Greece throughout history, but also dwelling on other ethnographic issues as well.

Take the time, he's very good.


Click to expand...

Funny that he's an Iranian:LOL:. The thing about traditional Greek music is that there is such a variety. Thracian music can never be confused with Epirotan music or Ionian Island music with Cretan. Even within Thracian music You have the East Romylia music and the mainstream Thracian music. Heck there are differences from village to village. We were influenced by our neighbors and we influenced them.
 
bigsnake49 said:
Funny that he's an Iranian:LOL:.
Click to expand...


Well, your 100% Albanian ancestral village would be less Oriental sounding, for sure, although this Oriental influence definitely exists throughout the Balkans to varying degrees.

Thracian music is very oriental in comparison to the rest of the Balkans, they have been under the rule or in contact with the East since antiquity. This does not necessarily apply to late-Medieval Albanian settler villages like yours, mind you.
 
Thank god, we have an Iranian to tell us what is Greek and what is not. He doesn't understand he acts like the French or American tourists he mentions.

Zorba's dance is 'Modern Greek', not Ionian. Are the instuments 'Ionian'? A modern Greek composer can have 'Western' influences or formal education.
 
Well, diaspora Greeks are about as knowledgeable as tourists are, sometimes even less so.

His points are correct. Hollywood-created Italian sounding tunes are not in the slightest representative of the real ethnic music.

And he's not addressing modern compositions rather than the true native musical themes of the region, nice strawman there.

BTW, Epirotan, Macedonian and Thracian use of their own main instrument, the 'zourna' (persian etymology of the word) is also oriental in its origins.
 
Zorba's dance is essentially a modern Greek composition. (Personally I don't really like Theodorakis in general). Greeks can make music that is not as oriental as he would like.
There is nothing Italian or Ionian about the song. The instruments are definιtely not Italian or Ionian.

The name zournas actually can also be from an Anatolian language, cognate with English horn, Greek κέρας if it descends from an instrument made from animal horn which is likely. There were other wind instuments in Greece too.

Today in Epirus the clarinet is commonly used, in the Cyclades the violin etc.
 
A. Papadimitriou said:
The name zournas actually can also be from an Anatolian language, cognate with English horn, Greek κέρας if it descends from an instrument made from animal horn which is likely. There were other wind instuments in Greece too.
Click to expand...


Yes, I agree the zournas is ancient in origin, existing both in intermediate cultures like the ancient Greeks and oriental proper like the Persians, who was first to use it I also think it matters little.

Also, I didn't realise that Anatolian is now considered "western", very interesting mental gymnastics.
 
eupator said:
Yes, I agree the zournas is ancient in origin, existing both in intermediate cultures like the ancient Greeks and oriental proper like the Persians, who was first to use it I also think it matters little.

Also, I didn't realise that Anatolian is now considered "western", very interesting mental gymnastics.
Click to expand...

Anatolian, the linguistic group is not 'western' but not 'oriental' either.

I said the word zournas is probably Anatolian in origin (Luwian specifically) and that it descends from the IE root for 'horn'. The Iranian etymology looks like a folk etymology and it can be wrong. It is interesting though that in ancient Iran there was an instrument called karna. This word (if it is associated with the meaning horn which seems likely) can be either from a non-satem IE language or Semetic. (The IE and Semetic word for 'horn' are similar interestingly.)
 
Maybe he confuses the Ionian coast, where Smyrna is located with the Ionian islands. The modern Laiki music is mainly derived from Smyrnaiki music with some influence from Constantinople music. I think Constantinople music is a bit heavier, more "oriental".

We are talking about dimotiki music, traditional music, the music of the villages not of the great urban centers Like Smyrna and Constantinople. The influences are more local. For example, Thracian music, particularly Eastern Romylia is more influenced by Bulgarian music than others. Epirotan music is heavily influenced by Albanian and vice versa and Greek Macedonian music is influenced by Slavic music from its neighbors and vice versa.

Arvanite music depends on what part of the country. The Arvanite music of Eastern Thrace has more to do with its neighboring Greek villages than the Arvanite music of Attiki or the Peloponnese.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuZzSN3NWiI for an example of an eastern Thracian Arvanite song. Sounds just like any other Thracian song.
On the other hand the Arvanites of Evoia song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP1QSjzUhD8
The second one has some influence from nisiotika
This is from the Epirus area:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIuEtCGiqUo
Showσ the undeniable musical idiom of Epirus and the mainland.

I am trying to make the argument that the influences are more local than grand scale. Maybe laiki music was influenced by middle eastern music but when it comes to dimotiki...eh.
 
bigsnake49 said:
Maybe he confuses the Ionian coast, where Smyrna is located with the Ionian islands. The modern Laiki music is mainly derived from Smyrnaiki music with some influence from Constantinople music. I think Constantinople music is a bit heavier, more "oriental".

We are talking about dimotiki music, traditional music, the music of the villages not of the great urban centers Like Smyrna and Constantinople. The influences are more local. For example, Thracian music, particularly Eastern Romylia is more influenced by Bulgarian music than others. Epirotan music is heavily influenced by Albanian and vice versa and Greek Macedonian music is influenced by Slavic music from its neighbors and vice versa.

Arvanite music depends on what part of the country. The Arvanite music of Eastern Thrace has more to do with its neighboring Greek villages than the Arvanite music of Attiki or the Peloponnese.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuZzSN3NWiI for an example of an eastern Thracian Arvanite song. Sounds just like any other Thracian song.
On the other hand the Arvanites of Evoia song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP1QSjzUhD8
The second one has some influence from nisiotika
This is from the Epirus area:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIuEtCGiqUo
Showσ the undeniable musical idiom of Epirus and the mainland.

I am trying to make the argument that the influences are more local than grand scale. Maybe laiki music was influenced by middle eastern music but when it comes to dimotiki...eh.
Click to expand...

Modern modern laiko is a mess(there's a lot of stealing of melodies from each other in Balkans and Middle East) and has not much continuity(besides exceptions) of what we have in mind as "gnisio" laiko ,what we usually have in mind as such(heavy bouzouki use and zeibekiko melodies) isn't Smyrnean but Pireot (spreading with these guys http://pireorama.blogspot.com/2018/03/blog-post.html ) which was already present before the refugees ,the refugees brought more "oriental"-type stuff with not so much bouzouki(which is close to a converted Mandolin iirc and a substitute of the Tampoura type instruments that Klephts were using),Pireot style (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebetiko#1930s ) was probably also influenced by islanders ,the Zeibekiko dance probably came through movements from Syros.Going further back in time all of these have their roots in urban mainland areas where there was a merge of Dimotika/Klephtika with Coffee-House type Music(Amanedes) ,from there it must have spreaded in all urban centers probably with migrations from Greece.
 
Dorian9 said:
Modern modern laiko is a mess(there's a lot of stealing of melodies from each other in Balkans and Middle East) and has not much continuity(besides exceptions) of what we have in mind as "gnisio" laiko ,what we usually have in mind as such(heavy bouzouki use and zeibekiko melodies) isn't Smyrnean but Pireot (spreading with these guys http://pireorama.blogspot.com/2018/03/blog-post.html ) which was already present before the refugees ,the refugees brought more "oriental"-type stuff with not so much bouzouki(which is close to a converted Mandolin iirc and a substitute of the Tampoura type instruments that Klephts were using),Pireot style (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebetiko#1930s ) was probably also influenced by islanders ,the Zeibekiko dance probably came through movements from Syros.Going further back in time all of these have their roots in urban mainland areas where there was a merge of Dimotika/Klephtika with Coffee-House type Music(Amanedes) ,from there it must have spreaded in all urban centers probably with migrations from Greece.
Click to expand...

Listen to the songs in this collection:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTg3g1p9KNs

or this collection:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQph_mHh6YM

and tell me that you don't see an inheritance. Remember also that 100 years have passed so there is some evolution. I o agree that the bouzouki is too front and center in laiki particularly live.
 
bigsnake49 said:
Listen to the songs in this collection:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTg3g1p9KNs

or this collection:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQph_mHh6YM

and tell me that you don't see an inheritance. Remember also that 100 years have passed so there is some evolution. I o agree that the bouzouki is too front and center in laiki particularly live.
Click to expand...

Ofc there is in terms of melodies , it's just the instruments different.I think it's the same case with Medieval European and (South?)Italian music.Same source/rhythms (Byzantine influenced?),different instruments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nRK1TnpmHs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8aQm3SoyI4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEeAN471boQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2eDNzVOX7c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enGePpFjaUE
 
Dorian9 said:
Modern modern laiko is a mess(there's a lot of stealing of melodies from each other in Balkans and Middle East) and has not much continuity(besides exceptions) of what we have in mind as "gnisio" laiko ,what we usually have in mind as such(heavy bouzouki use and zeibekiko melodies) isn't Smyrnean but Pireot (spreading with these guys http://pireorama.blogspot.com/2018/03/blog-post.html ) which was already present before the refugees ,the refugees brought more "oriental"-type stuff with not so much bouzouki(which is close to a converted Mandolin iirc and a substitute of the Tampoura type instruments that Klephts were using),Pireot style (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebetiko#1930s ) was probably also influenced by islanders ,the Zeibekiko dance probably came through movements from Syros.Going further back in time all of these have their roots in urban mainland areas where there was a merge of Dimotika/Klephtika with Coffee-House type Music(Amanedes) ,from there it must have spreaded in all urban centers probably with migrations from Greece.
Click to expand...


Fan fiction in your head with zero proof other than fan-fiction blog sites.

Rembetiko is a musical style that was popularised in Piraeus where a vast majority of Anatolian settlers were moved in. It was their ghetto music. Nothing to do with Balkan 'klephts'.

Of course, you can provide 1 (one) klephtiko song that proves such continuity with the Rembetiko, but you can't because there isn't it any.

Typical 'mainland' mentality, to steal Anatolian culture and proclaim it as their own since they are ashamed of their own Albanophone and Slavophone music/ethnography.
 
This is mainland music and ethnography in their native Slavic/Vlach/Albanian languages respectively:








Αnd these are Asia Minor Anatolians (Grecophone):



And Asia Minor Anatolians (Turcophones):

 
Dodecannesians:



Thrace can go either way, you can have full-blown Bulgarian-like musical themes:



Or more oriental themed:




And not wanting to leave them out, you have Pontic traditional, always sung in their hellenistic/medieval dialect Greek, that are unique in the region of NE Anatolia (not overlapping very well with Georgian and Armenian music, contrary to popular belief, but more with Anatolian themes):


 
Random Turkish traditional from Anatolia:



And Turkish Zeybeks who gave their namesake to the Zeybekiko dance that mainland copers claim as 'klepth'.




All the Greek traditional music from Anatolia, that is the basis of modern popular music "laiko", and that has centuries (if not more) of tradition sung in the Greek language, has more in common with their Turkish Anatolian counterparts, rather than the 9th-11th century AD 'mainland' Greek settlers whose musical ethnography is in Albanian/Slavic/Vlach.

Mainland copers will try to convince you otherwise, of course.
 
for those who 'know' Greek music,

11 century byzantinr carrols.


7-8 century



It is called Phrygian mode, maybe the darkest Rock mode,


Anatolian maybe is the oldest rock music.

search Dorian and Lydian mode.
 
on the other hand.

how Greek sound this?



also how Greek is this ?


no matter very common use in Greece has nothing to do with GREEk I believe.
 
and can you tell me,

if you close your eyes, and not look the video,
from where is this music,
I would surely Central Makedonia, and not Pontic greeks

 
Yetos said:
and can you tell me,

if you close your eyes, and not look the video,
from where is this music,
I would surely Central Makedonia, and not Pontic greeks[/video]
Click to expand...


It's Western/Bithynian Pontic musical style not Eastern, that's why they use the zourna and not the kemenche.

The rest of your posts are incomprehensible cope.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

This thread has been viewed 6870 times.

Back
Top