Greece and the Oriental question.

on the other hand.

how Greek sound this?



also how Greek is this ?


no matter very common use in Greece has nothing to do with GREEk I believe.



Very Greek, the only thing that has nothing to do with Greece are the Slavophone Macedonians, like your village, and Albanophone Atticans/Moreans pretending their Balkan tunes are ancient Greek in origin while simultaneously trying to appropriate Anatolian musical achievements.

According to you Orthodox hymns are not Greek but irredentist Slavic songs like Vardar, Pirin, kaj ti e ("3 macedonias unite") sung in your villages, are. Very interesting perspective.
 
and can you tell me,

if you close your eyes, and not look the video,
from where is this music,
I would surely Central Makedonia, and not Pontic greeks


The Armenians use the zourna extensively in their music (and much better than the macedonian usual cacophony), it's kinda like their national instrument, they are also "Makedonians" as well? Haha!


 
Fan fiction in your head with zero proof other than fan-fiction blog sites.

Rembetiko is a musical style that was popularised in Piraeus where a vast majority of Anatolian settlers were moved in. It was their ghetto music. Nothing to do with Balkan 'klephts'.

Of course, you can provide 1 (one) klephtiko song that proves such continuity with the Rembetiko, but you can't because there isn't it any.

Typical 'mainland' mentality, to steal Anatolian culture and proclaim it as their own since they are ashamed of their own Albanophone and Slavophone music/ethnography.

Most of these articles take their informations from "Rebetologist" works such as that of Petropoulos.


I don't have to steal anything from literal cousin peoples ,basically modern Greece borders+Eastern Thrace(especially in/around Poli)+Aegean Turkey at the time were the same people since the later were post-Ottoman migrants from the former.In this case "Anatolian" is nothing but a geographical designation for a group of people that was the equivalent of a modern diaspora(even more so in the big cities where the flow of people would be constant).It's like you are telling me I'm trying to steal something called "Australian" from Melbourne Greeks.I guess everyone brought something?it wasn't the "Anatolian" spirit/ghost?How did kantades end up in Smyrna?


What was "popularized" back then was the term "Rembetiko" by record labels who "imposed" it ,those who contributed to it didn't even call it that ,they had "Xasapika" "Zeibekika" "Magkika" etc or "laiko",then came the Smyrneika.


There's no records from 19th century ,you can search about "mourmourika" though(some "Rembetika" songs are of such origin) and where and when they evolved ,("gialadika"too) and search what kind of people were present in the place that it evolved.Ask also the musicologists why they say it evolved from Dimotika ,I'm not one.The "mangika" subgenre you could say is the urban equivalent of Klephtika ("odes" to the brave ,can only come from certain types of societies/groups with certain "codes" ,certainly not from Smyrna) ,it becomes more obvious if you look at the origin of the word( https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Μάγκα_(στρατός) )and search with who ,when and how the semantic change occured.


In Piraeus there was a merging of styles and the local one(pre-refugee) along with its music ,dance ,culture and slang dominated.At first before the merge there were certain synoikies where you would listen the one or the other.How would the guys who left riches(the story goes) contribute to such culture either way?such subculture can only arise from the backward balkaner "bandits" as some call them...In fact you can use that exact word and search "μπαντιδες ιωαννινων" ,you will notice the third website (which is the last place you would expect ethnocentrism/regionalisms) and see some interesting stuff.


What and who were the "dervishides"?what "nationality"?what their relations with 21' revolutionaries?and their "tekes"?who were the "vlamides"?who used to hold "koumboures"?etc


Other interesting stuff
https://rembetiko.gr/t/κώστας-βλησίδης-τα-«βλάμικα»-και-«ρεμπέτικα»-τραγούδια-της-λογιοσύνης/38304


I could go on but my folders are messy...I'm not gonna bother further,you are the researcher after all.Search "rebetologists" ,musicologists,the slang/culture ,look for more threads from the above forum..the devil lies in the details.At the end of the day it's like with genetics ,there's a mix ,there's divergence ,"mutations" ,repeat..to the point that it becomes meaningless to search for some single pure origin.You are the one who is desperate to appropriate things by hiding behind something called "Anatolian" while your "Anatolian" side was and remained diverged in every aspect and was far away from the any of these processes.I'd call the Albanophone/Slavophone stuff projection too.


+ 1)Just because something has "oriental" elements ,it doesn't mean it evolved in Anatolia ,a look at an Ottoman-empire map is enough 2)don't confuse urban with rural 3)Have in mind that most modern regional musics(aka mostly rural) do not represent/sound like their ancestral ones of centuries ago + many instruments are relatively recent adoptions + different instruments doesn't mean different music.All are variations of mostly "Byzantine" stuff but well..identity crisis and the need to feel special creates issues for some.







Random Turkish traditional from Anatolia:
And Turkish Zeybeks who gave their namesake to the Zeybekiko dance that mainland copers claim as 'klepth'.

I didn't say Zeibekiko comes from Klephts ,I said from Syran migrants who were among the first to settle Piraeus before refugees, point being it wasn't brought by the later Smyrneans.(When I said "all" I meant all urban hotspots of proto-"rembetika"-laika elements).Other than that ,both the origin of the tribe(one theory is that they were not even a tribe but a battalion including Yenicars) and the dance are unknown PLUS again according to "experts" Greek to Turkish one are different sharing only the name and the inspiration from the later(basically just the spreaded arms part).
 
copium/rant


Like I said, zero sources, just some vague appeals to authority to nobodies and other blogspot fan fiction/head-cannon stuff.

I don't blame you though, you just regurgitate stuff you heard from others, deeply complexed people that had to forcefully commit cultural genocide to their ethnography (because all of it was in a different language (Albanian, Slavic, etc.) and worst of all, languages that belonged to competing/antagonistic post-Ottoman nations).

Me, on the other hand, since you want to make things personally, I am the closest one can be to my Eastern Roman/Byzantine ancestors (together with Cypriots, Islanders, and other Greeks, I am not trying to pretend I am the only one) and I have a huge extensive library of my people's culture and music and literature in the most archaic/conservative dialect of Greek there is; while you on the other hand, together with your Slavo-Albano-Bogdanian folk have 0 (zero) ethnography and music/songs in Greek before the 1930s (Metaxas period) and 1920s when the Anatolian Greeks re-Hellenized you, hence why you want so desperately to steal and appropriate their stuff (Otto era Kingdom of Greece doesn't count since it's the most hilarious collections of fake-archaisms and translation travesties).

Cheers!
 
And if you'd be so kind, "dorian", as a non-divergent real Greek to explain to a "diverged" Oriental like myself why in 2015-2023, you still sing and dance in Albanian in your Morean and Attican villages?




Also, to our "Makedonian original" friend to kindly explain why in 2015-2023 the natives' villages in Greek Macedonia sing in Slavic irredentist songs against Greece about the unification of the 3 Macedonias?


Translated lyrics from Slavic into English:
Code:
[B]Vardar, where is your Pirin?[/B]

 Dear children of the divided mother
a hard pain on the heart, and the shoulders.

Vardar, where is your Pirin?
Vardar, where is your Aegean?

Mother Macedonia, don't cry!
The day will come, you'll hug
the Pirin Mountains.
Mother Macedonia, sing!
The day will come, you'll be carried
by the Aegean waters.

Vardar, where is your Pirin?
Vardar where is your Aegean?

Tears are flowing from mother Macedonia
Difficult, like how the centuries have been.

Vardar, where is your Pirin?
Vardar where is your Aegean?

Mother Macedonia, don't cry!
The day will come, you'll hug
the Pirin Mountains.
Mother Macedonia, sing!
The day will come, you'll be carried
by the Aegean waters.

Vardar, where is your Pirin?
Vardar where is your Aegean?


Is this what a non-divergent Greek looks like?

News to me.
 
"Divergent" Greek song in a dialect so archaic, modern Greeks have difficulty grasping apart from a few words here and there, sung by a Turkish girl from Trabzon!



There are modern Turks in Turkey right now speaking to each other and singing their songs in a Greek dialect so archaic, 'non-divergent' Greeks like "dorian" have trouble comprehending and reciprocating!

The travesty!
 
Seething 'mainland greeks' ITT, there's more coming when I have time, fasten your seatbelts.

:LOL:
 
"Divergent" Greek song in a dialect so archaic, modern Greeks have difficulty grasping apart from a few words here and there, sung by a Turkish girl from Trabzon!



There are modern Turks in Turkey right now speaking to each other and singing their songs in a Greek dialect so archaic, 'non-divergent' Greeks like "dorian" have trouble comprehending and reciprocating!

The travesty!

Pela Nikolaidou has a better voice and Babis Kemanetzidis is better at kemence:
If you like a male voice how about Adem Ekiz:


Adem is Pontic Greek speaker, a muslim who has done a great job trying to preserve the rich musical heritage.

Also during the ascendancy of the bouzouki, a lot of the other instruments that were brought over were like,
lute, santouri, canon, oud, kanonaki, zilia. It's only lately when the government opens all the music schools that we see a resurgence in their use. I am so impressed with the new generation of musicians coming out that have brought out a renaissance.

As far as laiki music is concerned, it is starting to sound the same.

Personally I like fast music so for me, Thracian, Pontic and Cretan music played on their traditional instruments. Please, please no violin or klarino for me. Those are Western instruments.
 
Pela Nikolaidou has a better voice and Babis Kemanetzidis is better at kemence:

That is some young person, not a professional musician. She's pretty good, I applaud her dedication to preserving her heritage.

Adem is Pontic Greek speaker, a muslim who has done a great job trying to preserve the rich musical heritage.

I am a big fan of his.

Another one of his contemporaries from Trabzon if you are interested:


I am so impressed with the new generation of musicians coming out that have brought out a renaissance.


I agree 100%. Check these young outfits out:



 
Haha, Margoudi has been reinterpreted 10 times at least :).

I just wonder how long the lax attitude of the Turkish government towards these Pontic speaking musicians will last.

Thank you for the recommendations. I browse Youtube for new Greek groups all the time.
 
i am the closest one can be to my eastern roman/byzantine ancestors (together with cypriots, islanders, and other greeks, i am not trying to pretend i am the only one) and i have a huge extensive library of my people's culture and music and literature in the most archaic/conservative dialect of greek there is; while you on the other hand, together with your slavo-albano-bogdanian folk have 0 (zero) ethnography and music/songs in greek before the 1930s (metaxas period) and 1920s when the anatolian greeks re-hellenized you, hence why you want so desperately to steal and appropriate their stuff (otto era kingdom of greece doesn't count since it's the most hilarious collections of fake-archaisms and translation travesties).

Cheers!

no you are not.

You are ignorant in total greek music and especially in origins of religious chants



THIS IS TSAMIKO EPIRUS. FOR YOU MAYBE AN ANATOLIAN GREEK SOUND.

IN ANOTHER POST YOU NOUNCE ME AS A PONTIC GREEK HIDDEN IN MAKEDONIA.
IN THIS THREAD YOU JUST NOUNCE ME AS A SLAV MAKEDONIAN.

YOUR IGNORACE AND CHEAP METHODS IS OBVIOUS.


IS THIS A SLAVIC OR A TURKISH OR AN ARMENIAN SOUND AND DANCE?


and this Agrinio, from antigue the closest dialect to Makedonian.

Also for your ignorance Greece has the more form of instrument zournas, more than Armenia or Central ASIA.

Music many times depends on the instruments



This is qanun from Kannon of Pythagoras,
Today no Greek plays Qannon, But Arabs do.
 
@eupator

Look this.

THIS IS ROCK ....


This is Zeimpekiko .

You are an ignorant in music, especially in Greek modes.
 




3odtgi.gif
 
@ Eupator

you made misirlou, although written by a Greek composer, as Greek music.

what about our national anthem? is it also Greek music? or an Italian fanfara?
 
@ Eupator

what about our national anthem? is it also Greek music? or an Italian fanfara?


I will just answer this because my previous points weren't addressed.

I just saw posts about the ethnic dances of Albanian Chams ("Chamiko"), people from the Balkans playing Balkan themes (Karakachans, various foustanella wearing groups), an ancient Greek flute somehow being the ancestor of the zourna (the most hilarious of it all) and then some incomprehensible stuff about rock music.

No comment on the existence of any pre-20th century "mainland" Greek ethnography in Greek and not in Slavic, Albanian, Vlach. Still waiting, by the way, make me eat crow, show me your "Makedonian original" songs in the Greek language before 1922.

As for the national anthem: a super cringy and rife with masonic-symbolism verbal flamboyance as good as any lodge could produce and a perfect fit for the pseudo-Romeyko.

Happy?

Christ is King.

ΙΣ ΧΣ ΝΙ ΚΑ
 

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