Greece and the Oriental question.

[eupator]

The cognitive dissonance of the 'mainland' Greeks posters, like dorian9, ITT has reached such levels as to claim an obvious Albanian Cham ethnographic piece, named after the same very region of said ethnic group (Chameria), a word with an etymological meaning in Albanian but not Greek, as somehow a proof of the Hellenic identity of the region.

More or less, the same thing they do with Anatolians, appropriating their folklore musical style that was born out of their life in the urban ghetto, as somehow originally 'klepht', trying to take credit since they have no evolved ethnography of their own. 'Mainland' Greeks have a gap, an ethnographic black hole between 19th-middle 20th century (when they start appropriating the Anatolians) where nothing folklore exists other than centrally planned translations and ridiculous neo-romantic archaic revivals (literature, etc); thus creating a sense of cultural and spiritual emptiness and leading them to the absurdity of claiming Zeybeks and Chams equally as something that it was always theirs.

Of course, it's no accident that Anatolian-themed musical styles have dominated the modern pop culture in the country, they are the original sounds of the region and despite their often bad quality they maintain a sense of continuity.

I leave it to the 'mainland' Greek musical experts to continue to entertain us with new claims about how Cham and Vlach and Bulgarian and Zeybek musical pieces are proof of their ancient Greek continuity.

 

[Yetos]

I will just answer this because my previous points weren't addressed.

I just saw posts about the ethnic dances of Albanian Chams ("Chamiko"), people from the Balkans playing Balkan themes (Karakachans, various foustanella wearing groups), an ancient Greek flute somehow being the ancestor of the zourna (the most hilarious of it all) and then some incomprehensible stuff about rock music.

No comment on the existence of any pre-20th century "mainland" Greek ethnography in Greek and not in Slavic, Albanian, Vlach. Still waiting, by the way, make me eat crow, show me your "Makedonian original" songs in the Greek language before 1922.

As for the national anthem: a super cringy and rife with masonic-symbolism verbal flamboyance as good as any lodge could produce and a perfect fit for the pseudo-Romeyko.

Happy?

Christ is King.

ΙΣ ΧΣ ΝΙ ΚΑ

You have been asking for this,

from the village that stop Ali Pasha expansion to Makedonia,

YOU ARE PATHETIC. and IGNORANT.

https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Λαζαίοι

IT IS TIME TO READ NIKOLAOS KASOMOULIS memories.
Before you open your mouth again,

As for IS XS NI KA the symbol of killers and Assasins, the executioners of Greeks,
Greeks suffer more from Christians than from Romans, or Turks.

 

[Yetos]

@ Eupator

I feel pitty for you.

 

[eupator]

You have been asking for this,

from the village that stop Ali Pasha expansion to Makedonia,

YOU ARE PATHETIC. and IGNORANT.

https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Λαζαίοι

IT IS TIME TO READ NIKOLAOS KASOMOULIS memories.
Before you open your mouth again,

As for IS XS NI KA the symbol of killers and Assasins, the executioners of Greeks,
Greeks suffer more from Christians than from Romans, or Turks.

Vlach song, polyphonic from Epirus, is the best you can do for "Makedonian original" nativity claims.

I guess you are from Surdistan, haha, makes sense.

Ed: To give context for the rest of the forum, the "Sourdoi" Vlachs ("Surdu" nickname in Vlach = "deaf", the person who pretends they can't hear because they are scheming something) from Kozani, in Western Macedonia, are not 'natives', they are Vlach settlers from Epirus and Albania, regardless of what nativity fairytale they spin these days.

As for ΙΣ ΧΣ ΝΙ ΚΑ, the symbol of our Lord, making you seethe like that, I had no disillusions with whom I deal with here, thanks for the additional confirmation.


Cunctos populos.

@ Eupator

I feel pitty for you.

Stop being so easily emotionally compromised, dude, it's cringe-worthy and embarrassing. Where's that legendary 'mainland' Greek conviction of yours? All I do is push gently and you, lot, crumble.

Peace!

 

[eupator]

PS.

Ancient "Makedonian original" from surdistan, do you understand or are you able to reciprocate any of the words or the syntax of this pontic traditional song in perfect medieval Greek (Rum), sung here by the lovely Cypriot choir?

No?

I didn't think so.

 

[Dorian9]

The cognitive dissonance of the 'mainland' Greeks posters, like dorian9, ITT has reached such levels as to claim an obvious Albanian Cham ethnographic piece, named after the same very region of said ethnic group (Chameria), a word with an etymological meaning in Albanian but not Greek, as somehow a proof of the Hellenic identity of the region.

More or less, the same thing they do with Anatolians, appropriating their folklore musical style that was born out of their life in the urban ghetto, as somehow originally 'klepht', trying to take credit since they have no evolved ethnography of their own. 'Mainland' Greeks have a gap, an ethnographic black hole between 19th-middle 20th century (when they start appropriating the Anatolians) where nothing folklore exists other than centrally planned translations and ridiculous neo-romantic archaic revivals (literature, etc); thus creating a sense of cultural and spiritual emptiness and leading them to the absurdity of claiming Zeybeks and Chams equally as something that it was always theirs.

Of course, it's no accident that Anatolian-themed musical styles have dominated the modern pop culture in the country, they are the original sounds of the region and despite their often bad quality they maintain a sense of continuity.

I leave it to the 'mainland' Greek musical experts to continue to entertain us with new claims about how Cham and Vlach and Bulgarian and Zeybek musical pieces are proof of their ancient Greek continuity.

Ugh baokara ta myaLa mas ponane se Leo t'athinaiko/katavlakiotiko katestimeno "mas" kLevi tin klironomia you have Kocari and Zonaradiko or whatever aren't they enough?have some decency and don't appropriate mainland urban bandit stuff or spread lies about rural ones.

Other than that ,you are unable to discern motives don't waste your time trying ,I just posted some stuff I liked ,dot. The rest are paranoid fantasies.But lidl's researcher and gas destroyer you have to take in account semantic shifts.Your family's name was possibly Muratoglu in the past ,does that mean you are a Seljuk?bring video records of the first dancers of Tsamiko or "make Toubeki" as the Balkan bandits used to say(and let me make it "mashed" because you otherwise can not comprehend , I don't know what is its distant origin neither do I care but you don't know either ,you make up biased theories based on brainfarts ).Bidirectional influences should also be expected in multiethnic areas ,especially after hundreds of years of interaction ,right?and when Greeks have also been assimilated by others?when are we going to see you starting to look for Greek or "Rhomaic" if you will elements in other peoples?
(isn't being a Rhomios a Greek Orthodox btw?what is that sinful mason-inspired nationalistic inter-Rhomaic racism?are you the gatekeeper of something? or you still live with the ghosts of dopio racism? Christ is king

)

+ And again none implied Zeibekiko(the dance) was "always" "ours" ,point was that it was a Piraeus phenomenon before refugees.There's some of the "Zeibekika" songs though https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bXDIf8Yy1Q that would have evolved from in 1834 Athens prison music which in turn would have evolved from Demotic + probably Coffeehouse Amane type of synthesis similar to that of 18th century Ioannina.The ball is on you to find 18th century possible ancestors elsewhere ,"sounds anatolian" doesn't cut it (once again open an Ottoman empire map), you are a researcher you should know that.

I can imagine it must be bothering to come from akritic parts hence having always been the extras/kobarsoi but it is what it is ,you either accept it or hide behind imagined cultures based on imagined borders(where if we were to use the same logic you would barely be part of anyways

) and dead "identities" to gain some "height".. .Going from Thraco-Ionian to Colchian to Rhomios to Mithridatid to Hurrian to BulgaroArvanitoVlachMithridates can drive someone mad , be consistent.

+You can leave the christian larp too. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain" "Thou shalt not steal" "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour" "Thou shalt not desire thy neighbour's house" ,deadly sins "Wrath" "Envy" "Pride".

+Why are you showing off Pontic dialect?by your own admission you are not a Greek ,the language was imposed on your people ,better adopt Hurrian ,Georgian or whatever.

 

[eupator]

drivel

Your emotional response shows your desperation. The cards are laid on the table, readers can judge for themselves. I am confident in my conviction, I don't need to resort to ad homs.

Trebizond was the last Kingdom of the Eastern Romans and a pivotal centre of Greco-Roman culture during the Ottomans. The fact that you call us Armenians as kind of insult shows your own insecurity.

Armenians are a brother nation, proud and venerable and fighters up until today, not corrupted vlacho-bogdanian tourist-trap peddlers, bankrupt every 50-80 years or so.

Going from Thraco-Ionian to Colchian to Rhomios to Mithridatid to Hurrian to BulgaroArvanitoVlachMithridates can drive someone mad , be consistent.

I said before I am Byzantine by genes, culture, language and most importantly religion. My identity only bothers vlacho-bogdanian larpers like yourself and your kind because it infringes on their 'we wuz' delusions.

Why are you showing off Pontic dialect?by your own admission you are not a Greek ,the language was imposed on your people ,better adopt Hurrian ,Georgian or whatever.

Pontics call themselves Romans and their language Romeyka. Fact. It's a definitive part of their identity, Morean and Attican governments tried to eradicate their language and their customs in the 1930s-1980s but they failed miserably, its current enthusiastic revival is the slap on the face your kind deserves.

And squirming about the fact you can barely understand it, because you have no Greek language evolution of your own, merely what the Otto's Kingdom administration of the 19th century decided to impose upon you at the time, is very telling.

Cheers!:sun:

 

[eupator]

what is that sinful mason-inspired nationalistic inter-Rhomaic racism?

Dionysios Solomos, your 'national poet' and writer of the national hymn was a high level tectonic mason (together with Rigas Feraios, and others).

The first verse

'Σε γνωρίζω από την κόψη του σπαθιού την τρομερή, σε γνωρίζω από την όψη που με βία μετράει τη γη ...' is an almost word-to-word recital of an oath.

Why does this bother you? Isn't he a major figure of your hero pantheon of your national revolution?

Do you think that Christian Orthodoxes should hold such verses in high regard? Why?

Educate yourself and avoid embarrassment.

I can imagine it must be bothering to come from akritic parts hence having always been the extras/kobarsoi but it is what it is ,you either accept it or hide behind imagined cultures based on imagined borders(where if we were to use the same logic you would barely be part of anyways

Akritic parts?

You mean Eastern Thrace, suburb of Adrianople, the capital of the Byzantines and Ottomans? Or Trebizond, the first stop of the Silk Road into the Ottoman Empire?

You must be confusing it with Morea, the pirate kingdom of thieves, murderers and other degenerates, the penal colony of the Ottomans.

 

[Dorian9]

Your emotional response shows your desperation. The cards are laid on the table, readers can judge for themselves. I am confident in my conviction, I don't need to resort to ad homs.

Trebizond was the last Kingdom of the Eastern Romans and a pivotal centre of Greco-Roman culture during the Ottomans. The fact that you call us Armenians as kind of insult shows your own insecurity.

Armenians are a brother nation, proud and venerable and fighters up until today, not corrupted vlacho-bogdanian tourist-trap peddlers, bankrupt every 50-80 years or so.




I said before I am Byzantine by genes, culture, language and most importantly religion. My identity only bothers vlacho-bogdanian larpers like yourself and your kind because it infringes on their 'we wuz' delusions.



Pontics call themselves Romans and their language Romeyka. Fact. It's a definitive part of their identity, Morean and Attican governments tried to eradicate their language and their customs in the 1930s-1980s but they failed miserably, its current enthusiastic revival is the slap on the face your kind deserves.

And squirming about the fact you can barely understand it, because you have no Greek language evolution of your own, merely what the Otto's Kingdom administration of the 19th century decided to impose upon you at the time, is very telling.

Cheers!:sun:

Don't pretend to be the attacked ,you started with the direct/indirect insults.None called you Armenian ,only said Black sea barely is Anatolia geographically.

"call themselves Romans and their language Romeyka"

Allaxe o Manolios...


As far as I've managed to trace I have no ancestry from foreign-speaking settlements , the communities where these exist are specific and charted.And if you come from Koine dialect speaking communities you must whether fully or partially come from such speakers from Hellenistic/Roman times.I have nothing to squirm about ,if anything it confirms my divergence point and how there was much more interaction ,action and movement between the rest, it might be because turcophony cut you off from the rest .

 

[eupator]

Don't pretend to be the attacked ,you started with the direct/indirect insults.None called you Armenian ,only said Black sea barely is Anatolia geographically.

"call themselves Romans and their language Romeyka"

Allaxe o Manolios...


As far as I've managed to trace I have no ancestry from foreign-speaking settlements , the communities where these exist are specific and charted.And if you come from Koine dialect speaking communities you must whether fully or partially come from such speakers from Hellenistic/Roman times.I have nothing to squirm about ,if anything it confirms my divergence point and how there was much more interaction ,action and movement between the rest, it might be because turcophony cut you off from the rest .

Sure, but we disagree on the 'divergence' part I am afraid. The divergent elements are the 'mainland' Greeks with their foreign medieval settler ancestry as evident from their mass I2a-din and E-V13 haplos and their complete lack of linguistic and ethnographic evolution (even from Medieval times).

 

[Dorian9]

Sure, but we disagree on the 'divergence' part I am afraid. The divergent elements are the 'mainland' Greeks with their foreign medieval settler ancestry as evident from their mass I2a-din and E-V13 haplos and their complete lack of linguistic and ethnographic evolution (even from Medieval times).

That's fine too.Politans and Coastal Aegeans were the true divergents.

 

[eupator]

That's fine too.Politans and Coastal Aegeans were the true divergents.

See, that wasn't that hard, was it.

 

[Dorian9]

See, that wasn't that hard, was it.

It wasn't ,why would you want to associate with them though when they have such lines?

 

[eupator]

It wasn't ,why would you want to associate with them though when they have such lines?

The Christian nation of the Rums is expansive, not contractile, or at least it should be.

In 2023, Hellenism is at its most minuscule it has ever been for the past 3000 years at the very least.

Answer this question to yourself not to me, did the lodge-born Kingdom of 1836 facilitate the expansion or the contraction?

 

[Dorian9]

The Christian nation of the Rums is expansive, not contractile, or at least it should be.

In 2023, Hellenism is at its most minuscule it has ever been for the past 3000 years at the very least.

Answer this question to yourself not to me, did the lodge-born Kingdom of 1836 facilitate the expansion or the contraction?

Expansive in what sense?

 

[eupator]

Expansive in what sense?

In the material sense following a spiritual paradigm.

Land + people in this argument.

 

[Anfänger]

Interesting thread. Since now I wasn't aware that many sounds I assumed to be purely Middle Eastern are originally Greek or Roman.

This YouTuber is very good indeed.

 

[peloponnesian]

for those who 'know' Greek music,

11 century byzantinr carrols.

Yes, this also sounds 'Oriental' compared to the western canon. If anyone finds it surprising they should check a map of the Byzantine Empire and who they were primarily dealing with (Persians, Arabs and Turks). Trying to 'purify' modern Greek culture of its eastern (or Balkan) elements is a fool's errand, like the failed Katharevousa experiment showed.

 

[bigsnake49]

There has been a back and forth interaction between the Middle East and Iran and even further since times immemorial. Along with trade goods, music was exchanged and acclimated. Don't discount the influence of the Roma people in this endeavor, at least since the medieval times. They were the itinerant musicians of old, among other things. Some of the greatest modern musicians of the laiki musical idiom were Roma like Kostas Hatzis and Angelopoulos.

 

[bigsnake49]

Here is another musical gift from Smyrna, Fide Kokcal: