Greek Jewish Y-DNA

A

abti

Newbie
Messages
14
Reaction score
12
Points
3
Sample size N #: 133

E1b1b1: 18.5%

G: 14.8%

J1: 14.8%

J2: 7.4%

Q: 11.1%

R1a1a: 11.1%

R1b1a: 11.1%

T: 7.4%

L: 3.7%

E & J account for 41.0% of the total.

K2b-P-QR* accounts for 33.3%.

K* accounts for 44.4%.

J accounts for 22.2% the rest are 77.8%.
 
Romaniote are more West Asian than Ashkenazim. So how are they more ~250% more J? ((Apparently)) but I’ve seen statistics that say otherwise.

I believe it maybe due to bottleneck or the statistics are maybe just hogwash.

But I would much prefer the former in these two scenarios.

Romaniote_Jew: 50% WANA max

DEU_MA_Erfurt1: 46% WANA max

Italian_Jew: 43% WANA max

Ashkenazi_Germany: 39% WANA max

Sephardic_Jew: 38% WANA max

Ashkenazi_Poland and Belarussia: 37% WANA max

Ashkenazi_Lithuania and Ukraine: 35% WANA max

Ashkenazi_Russia: 33% WANA max

main-qimg-c6904def1a88680a3f6f53838ced6e5d
 
It shows Jewish is not a race like it is believed. How can you be a race with 8 different haplogroups so 8 different lineages?
 
Touijer said:
It shows Jewish is not a race like it is believed. How can you be a race with 8 different haplogroups so 8 different lineages?
Click to expand...
I agree with the conclusion, but not the argument. Because of course every "race" could have 8 different lineages. The question is just how close these lineages are to other "races" lineages. Basically how long were they separated, when did they branch off.

Take for example the recent finding of haplogroup S in Australians, it split off more than 44.000 years ago. Whether the Australian Aborigines have 1 or 10 haplogroups doesn't matter, the question is rather how long they being isolated from other macro-populations.

The same applies here. Obviously we know that Jews are no "race" if using the biological definition and we can deduce that from yDNA also, because some of the splits are very recent, like 1.200 years ago. That's the real issue, the real argument, when Jewish ancestors split from other people's ancestors: Fairly recently. Not that they have 1, 2, 10 or 20 haplogroups.

Its a pity that the subclades being not known from this Romaniote sample.
 
Riverman said:
The same applies here. Obviously we know that Jews are no "race" if using the biological definition and we can deduce that from yDNA also, because some of the splits are very recent, like 1.200 years ago. That's the real issue, the real argument, when Jewish ancestors split from other people's ancestors: Fairly recently. Not that they have 1, 2, 10 or 20 haplogroups.
Click to expand...
I'm having difficulty grasping your point. The majority of Jews can be categorized into groups such as R1a Z93 (like Netanyahu), Slavic clades like R1b DF27 / U152, E-V13, E-M81, or various subclades of J1, J2 & G. For example, Netanyahu would share a common ancestor with most Pakistanis, dating back only 3500-4000 years, and possess a significant portion of the Y chromosome, which is pure and includes specific mutations. This principle applies broadly across various clades.

The notion of race itself is inherently flawed. What similarity exists between an R1a Z93 Jew and a J2 Jew when it comes to DNA? There's virtually none. If we consider a Russian Z93 and a Pakistani Z93, they would share approximately 1% of their human genome, making them akin to third cousins. Keep in mind that you inherit 100% of your Y chromosome from your father, so 1% significantly understates the connection. This doesn't even mention the patriarchal nature of the Indo-Europeans' R's.
 
Touijer said:
I'm having difficulty grasping your point. The majority of Jews can be categorized into groups such as R1a Z93 (like Netanyahu), Slavic clades like R1b DF27 / U152, E-V13, E-M81, or various subclades of J1, J2 & G. For example, Netanyahu would share a common ancestor with most Pakistanis, dating back only 3500-4000 years, and possess a significant portion of the Y chromosome, which is pure and includes specific mutations. This principle applies broadly across various clades.

The notion of race itself is inherently flawed. What similarity exists between an R1a Z93 Jew and a J2 Jew when it comes to DNA? There's virtually none. If we consider a Russian Z93 and a Pakistani Z93, they would share approximately 1% of their human genome, making them akin to third cousins. Keep in mind that you inherit 100% of your Y chromosome from your father, so 1% significantly understates the connection. This doesn't even mention the patriarchal nature of the Indo-Europeans' R's.
Click to expand...

I'm just saying its not number of haplogroups which makes the difference, but the most recent common ancestor to other people within these haplogroups. As you know, there are very recent common ancestors between Jewish and non-Jewish males, which means they are recently related and having no long phase of isolation.
There are people around the world which have lots of haplogroups as well, but still long phases of isolation, which is a difference.
 
@Touijer

@Riverman

You two are quibbling over nonsense… that’s not the point of this thread.

Can you answer my question though?

Romaniote are more West Asian than Ashkenazim. So how are they more ~250% more J? ((Apparently)) but I’ve seen statistics that say otherwise.
 
abti said:
@Touijer

@Riverman

You two are quibbling over nonsense… that’s not the point of this thread.

Can you answer my question though?

Romaniote are more West Asian than Ashkenazim. So how are they more ~250% more J? ((Apparently)) but I’ve seen statistics that say otherwise.
Click to expand...

You answered it yourself, either its a bottleneck or the statistics are insufficient...
Especially in small populations with a recent founder event, yDNA haplotypes don't necessarily correspond to autosomal genetics of the very same people. Just look at R1b in West African tribes.
 
Touijer said:
I'm having difficulty grasping your point. The majority of Jews can be categorized into groups such as R1a Z93 (like Netanyahu), Slavic clades like R1b DF27 / U152, E-V13, E-M81, or various subclades of J1, J2 & G. For example, Netanyahu would share a common ancestor with most Pakistanis, dating back only 3500-4000 years, and possess a significant portion of the Y chromosome, which is pure and includes specific mutations. This principle applies broadly across various clades.

The notion of race itself is inherently flawed. What similarity exists between an R1a Z93 Jew and a J2 Jew when it comes to DNA? There's virtually none. If we consider a Russian Z93 and a Pakistani Z93, they would share approximately 1% of their human genome, making them akin to third cousins. Keep in mind that you inherit 100% of your Y chromosome from your father, so 1% significantly understates the connection. This doesn't even mention the patriarchal nature of the Indo-Europeans' R's.
Click to expand...



Human Karyotype graphic


Science



What difference does the YDNA matter. You could take a Male Nigerian with Haplogroup A move them to Japan and after 3 to 400 years if they had a male child with a Japanese woman the end result would be autosomal DNA Japanese. That would be the autosomal connection. The male offspring would still have the Y Haplogroup A, would that make them Nigerian, No.
 
Dorquest said:
Human Karyotype graphic


Science



What difference does the YDNA matter. You could take a Male Nigerian with Haplogroup A move them to Japan and after 3 to 400 years if they had a male child with a Japanese woman the end result would be autosomal DNA Japanese. That would be the autosomal connection. The male offspring would still have the Y Haplogroup A, would that make them Nigerian, No.
Click to expand...
Autosomal completely dilutes after couples of hundred years, Y chromosome stays forever. If the descendan of the Nigerian you mentioned decides to marry a Nigerian women, his kids will be Nigerian autosomally while carrying a Nigerian haplogroup. A father and son have different autosomal yet they’re still related.

The Y chromosome does not recombine and makes up 2% of the human genome, so when organizing by Y haplogroup you surround yourself with the equivalent of 2nd cousins. Autosomal plays no part in sharing dna within the human genome, it’s made my commercial companies who compare you to samples they have.

Moving past genetics, some haplogroups like R’s were patriarchal. They married local women yet still were recognized as part of the tribe. When the L51 batch travelled from Central Asia to Europe, they didn’t leave any L51 behind in Slavic countries that are now dominated by R1a, they moved as a pack and married women local women along the way. Do you think they left their sons behind because autosomally they were different? Absolutely not. It was patriarchal , nowadays society is feminist and women centred so people can’t grasp this, that’s why they’re happy to rely on a new science called Autosomal.

You share 50% of your genome with father, 12% with a cousin, 1,5% with same haplogroup and 0,70% with a third cousin. Autosomal is only for traits.
 
Last edited:
Touijer said:
It shows Jewish is not a race like it is believed. How can you be a race with 8 different haplogroups so 8 different lineages?
Click to expand...
How many haplogroups would qualify as a race? And how many wouldn’t?
 
Dianatomia said:
How many haplogroups would qualify as a race? And how many wouldn’t?
Click to expand...
Essentially 1. They would all come from the same ancestors, share the same grandfathers, share thousands of mutations and have around 1% of their DNA genome in common. That’s what fits the description of a tribe or race in that case.

This is only genetically but there are other factors like religion which is the most important which makes people closer to each other
 
I don't think Romaniotes in Greece are a pure isolated group. They have been diluted by the Sephardis, coming from Spain. By the way, R1b-DF27 is no way Slavic, but rather Iberian haplogroup. It came with the Sephardis, who have incorporated some of the locals. Thessaloniki and Istanbul were Sephardic strongholds in the Turkish empire. Many of them converted to Islam, the so called Donmes. They even tried to pass for some crypto-Jews during the population exchange with Greece to stay in Thessaloniki. The Young Turks movement definitely has some connection with them.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

This thread has been viewed 1734 times.

Back
Top