Politics Here we go again: Right wing nationalism on the rise again in Europe

Ygorcs said:
The growth in the support for typically progressive stances was, in historic terms, too rapid, and the fact that we had 4 successive leftist governments that were more or less supportive of most of those progressive aims only made things worse for the conservative part of the population, that started to feel seriously intimidated and even trapped into a slow but continuous "revolution" of social mores that sounds horrifid to them.
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Exactly how I rationalise it too.

So, in a way I think that this conservative wave we're seeing is not just part of that pendulum caused by an alternation between moments of decline and progress, but also quite literally a reactionary wave even more than a conservative one, that is, there is a growing fear among certain parts of the population that the society is changing too fast and is clearly heading to a mindset and way of life that is totally unlike what they were used to and taught that is the right one. The reaction that sounds so loud and even aggressive can be , in some aspects, more of a desperate cry.
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I think the morals, social and political views, get reset with every new generation. Everybody's "compas" gets set during childhood and adolescence. The ideas and the world views learned at this time become base, the norm. The new conservatism.
That's why every old generation complains about the bad, worth nothing, new generation, but reminises their perfect world of their youth. "In my days..."
Also, this is why the new generation growing up with mixed races and in multiculturalism will be much more open, inclusive and tolerant, than old generation, which grew up in uniform ethnic group or separatism of some kind.

To tie it to this thread, Eastern European countries are much more uniform culturally and racially, than Western Europe ones, which doesn't help to open them to emigration, or plant in Western ideas of tolerance to "the others". Recent history of hyper nationalism in these countries against Soviet Russia, is not helping the situation either. They are hyper sensitive to their newly recovered independence and national identity.
 
LeBrok said:
To tie it to this thread, Eastern European countries are much more uniform culturally and racially, than Western Europe ones, which doesn't help to open them to emigration, or plant in Western ideas of tolerance to "the others". Recent history of hyper nationalism in these countries against Soviet Russia, is not helping the situation either. They are hyper sensitive to their newly recovered independence and national identity.
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good point

and seeing that immigration was not beneficial to western Europe won't help either

Europe does not have the right policies to make immigration a succes
 
The plain fact is the opinion result is what the majority of the people want, that view has to be respected,and accepted.
 
paul333 said:
The plain fact is the opinion result is what the majority of the people want, that view has to be respected,and accepted.
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To a degree, till the will of majority suppress rights of minorities. That's why we have many basic rights guaranteed in every constitution. This is were will of majority must stop.
 
Ygorcs said:
the vast majority of foreign immigrants in Hungary will just use it as bridge towards their preferred destinations like Germany, Switzerland and Sweden.
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Except that the EU pressures central European countries to accept immigrants under a quota system

Ygorcs said:
the biggest threat to Eastern European "civilization" is the combination of extremely low birth rates with very high EMIGRATION - no, not immigration - rates driving increasingly negative population growth in most nations
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Low native birth rates could be reversed with incentives and subsidies. In fact, why not take a lot of the money that goes to help immigrants and use it to help young native couples have and raise children. Stop immigration, raise the native birth rate.

Ygorcs said:
By the way, I didn't know this civilization is apparently so weak that it needs to be transmitted via DNA, not by acculturation of people, regardless of their ancestry
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Civilization and culture have a genetic basis. Do you really think that "European civilization" will endure once the population has been substantially replaced by immigration? And even if this were so, isn't it mad to invite the substantial replacement of one's own people on their own ancestral territory? It calls to mind Plutarch's tale of the Ship of Theseus, except with timber from different trees

Ygorcs said:
Do you really think people would be so wary of his government's democratic credential just because he favors a conservative and more restricted policy of immigration? The problem is way bigger than that little controversy.
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Immigration is hardly a "little controversy." In fact, it is the only issue that really matters. It is the question of our time.

And as far as Orban seeking to implement certain illiberal measures goes, or somehow violating "fundamental human rights," have you monitored the status of free political speech in Western Europe lately?
 
LeBrok said:
To a degree, till the will of majority suppress rights of minorities. That's why we have many basic rights guaranteed in every constitution. This is were will of majority must stop.
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The real situation in Europe is that it has actually been the will of the minorities forcing the suppression of the wills of the majority. The majority has to be respected, this democratic failure over recent decades, is why we are now seeing the consequences, and chaos in Europe today. Metropolitan based urban views mostly suppressing national ( majority )views.
 
dominique_nuit said:
Except that the EU pressures central European countries to accept immigrants under a quota system



Low native birth rates could be reversed with incentives and subsidies. In fact, why not take a lot of the money that goes to help immigrants and use it to help young native couples have and raise children. Stop immigration, raise the native birth rate.



Civilization and culture have a genetic basis. Do you really think that "European civilization" will endure once the population has been substantially replaced by immigration? And even if this were so, isn't it mad to invite the substantial replacement of one's own people on their own ancestral territory? It calls to mind Plutarch's tale of the Ship of Theseus, except with timber from different trees



Immigration is hardly a "little controversy." In fact, it is the only issue that really matters. It is the question of our time.

And as far as Orban seeking to implement certain illiberal measures goes, or somehow violating "fundamental human rights," have you monitored the status of free political speech in Western Europe lately?
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Well, lots and lots of unsubstantiated assumptions in your post:
- that, against all, innumerable historical evidences, culture and civilization are embedded in the genes of the local population and can't go on and survive by integrating other people into their sphere (no wonder immigrants don't integrate well in those countries, it must be really hard to convince anyone to do so if they are sure that no matter how culturally assimilated they are they'll always be regarded as "foreign people in our country"... also tell that to Hungarians, who speak Magyar and consider themselves Magyar even though they have a tiny bit of "true" Magyar ancestry in their veins);
- that if Western Europe has some problem with free political speech then somehow Eastern European governments are allowed to violate human rights and democratic clauses (is Western Europe somehow the standard of perfection to you or what? Because that argument doesn't make much sense);
- that immigration is "the only issue that really matters" even in the face of so many other urgent social and economic problems that, by the way, are partly responsible for the aforementioned extremely low birth rates and increase in youth emigration rates (no wonder that demographic bomb, that would happen with or without any immigrants, is not going away any time soon, people refuse to see what's right under their nose because it's much easier to propose magical solutions directed just against "the others", "the foreigners", and not pointing fingers at their own people's drawbacks);
- that you can convince young people to have many more kids by just offering them money, something that was already tested unsuccessfully in several European countries. People don't decide to have kids thinking just on the immediate costs and financial burden of that, but on the entire future perspective that they have for their lives. You're simplifying the problem too much. Increasing birth rates require tackling all those increasing structural problems that you think are unimportant because all that matters is to stop immigration. Meanwhile the constraints caused by the economic sytem and modern lifestyles on the decision to have more kids or even any kid at all continue unchallenged. Very wise move, huh?
 
Ygorcs said:
- that, against all, innumerable historical evidences, culture and civilization are embedded in the genes of the local population and can't go on and survive by integrating other people into their sphere (no wonder immigrants don't integrate well in those countries, it must be really hard to convince anyone to do so if they are sure that no matter how culturally assimilated they are they'll always be regarded as "foreign people in our country"... also tell that to Hungarians, who speak Magyar and consider themselves Magyar even though they have a tiny bit of "true" Magyar ancestry in their veins);
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Bad example. Magyars were a small military elite that did not substantially replace the native population. What is going on today Europe is not a question of absorbing and assimilating a small number of immigrants. It is a question of the immigrants replacing the native population. If current trends continue, native Europeans will be the minority in many of their own countries. Why must they acquiesce in their own destruction? And, by way of contrary example, why does Japan take so few immigrants? Perhaps the Japanese are not suicidal.

Ygorcs said:
That if Western Europe has some problem with free political speech then somehow Eastern European governments are allowed to violate human rights and democratic clauses (is Western Europe somehow the standard of perfection to you or what? Because that argument doesn't make much sense);
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I am very suspicious of groups like Amnesty International, just as I am suspicious of the US government =
https://www.usnews.com/opinion/worl...hy-is-the-us-interfering-in-hungarys-election

But I must confess, I don't really believe in liberal democracy anymore. Sue me.

Ygorcs said:
That immigration is "the only issue that really matters" even in the face of so many other urgent social and economic problems that, by the way, are partly responsible for the aforementioned extremely low birth rates and increase in youth emigration rates (no wonder that demographic bomb, that would happen with or without any immigrants, is not going away any time soon, people refuse to see what's right under their nose because it's much easier to propose magical solutions directed just against "the others", "the foreigners", and not pointing fingers at their own people's drawbacks)
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First, I do not think that ending immigration is a panacea. In fact, I think that opposition to mass immigration must be coupled with a critique of liberal free trade and globa capitalism in general.

See the French thinker Jean-Claude Michea = http://seejps.lumina.org/index.php/...-s-populism-or-with-the-left-against-the-left

Ygorcs said:
- that you can convince young people to have many more kids by just offering them money, something that was already tested unsuccessfully in several European countries. People don't decide to have kids thinking just on the immediate costs and financial burden of that, but on the entire future perspective that they have for their lives. You're simplifying the problem too much. Increasing birth rates require tackling all those increasing structural problems that you think are unimportant because all that matters is to stop immigration. Meanwhile the constraints caused by the economic sytem and modern lifestyles on the decision to have more kids or even any kid at all continue unchallenged. Very wise move, huh?
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I think that all other problems pale when faced with the prospect of demographic replacement. However, in general I think we would all be better off with a reduced birth rate. But the rates must fall globally, throughout the world. Otherwise, the first step before any other problems can be addressed is to defend our borders, the fundamental duty of any state.

As for the other reasons for a declining birth rate, reasons to do with a degenerate culture and sex role confusion, I am just as guilty in this regard as anyone else. I will most likely not have any children. All I can do is weep.
 
Johane Derite said:
A madman said this, but it has a ring of truth:


“The conservatives are fools: They whine about the decay of traditional values, yet they enthusiastically support technological progress and economic growth. Apparently it never occurs to them that you can't make rapid, drastic changes in the technology and the economy of a society without causing rapid changes in all other aspects of the society as well, and that such rapid changes inevitably break down traditional values.”
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It`s not so simple.
In 1989, Orbán received a scholarship from the Soros Foundation to study political science at Pembroke College, Oxford.[9] His personal tutor was Hegelian political philosopher Zbigniew Pelczynski.[10] In January 1990, he left Oxford and returned to Hungary to run for a seat in Hungary's first post-communist parliament.
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Hungarian-American business magnate and political activist George Soros criticized Orbán's handling of the European migrant crisis in 2015, saying: "His plan treats the protection of national borders as the objective and the refugees as an obstacle. Our plan treats the protection of refugees as the objective and national borders as the obstacle."[98] The Orbán government began to attack Soros and his NGOs since early 2017, particularly for his support for more open immigration. In July 2017, the Israeli ambassador in Hungary joined Jewish groups and others in denouncing a billboard campaign backed by the government, in which Soros was vilified as an "enemy of the state". The campaign was widely seen as anti-semitic, with critics claiming it "evokes memories of the Nazi posters during the Second World War". The ambassador stated that the campaign "evokes sad memories but also sows hatred and fear", an apparent reference to the Holocaust. Hours later, in an apparent attempt to ally Israel with Hungary, Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs issued a "clarification", denouncing Soros, stating that he "continuously undermines Israel's democratically elected governments," and that Soros funded organizations "that defame the Jewish state and seek to deny it the right to defend itself". The Israeli government has sought to ally itself with countries within the EU that might defend it from criticism; the clarification came a few days before an official visit to Hungary by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.[99] The anti-Soros messages became key elements of the government's communication and campaign since then, which, among others, also targeted the Central European University (CEU).[100][101][102][103]
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[h=2]Judicial Watch: State Department Records Show Obama Administration Helped Fund George Soros’ Left-Wing Political Activities in Albania[/h]
APRIL 04, 2018


Obama USAID Used U.S. Taxpayers’ Funds to Back Soros Group’s Effort to Give Albania’s Socialist Government ‘Full Control Over Judiciary’​
(Washington, DC) — Judicial Watch obtained 32 pages of records showing the Obama administration sent U.S. taxpayers’ funds to a group backed by billionaire George Soros, which used the money to fund left-wing political activities in Albania, including working with the country’s socialist government to push for highly controversial judicial “reform.” The records also detail how the Soros operation helped the State Department review grant applications from other groups for taxpayer funding.
The records were obtained in a May 26, 2017, Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuit against the U.S. Department of State and the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) after both the State Department and USAID failed to respond to March 31, 2017, FOIA requests (Judicial Watch v. U.S. Department of State and the U.S. Agency for International Development (No. 1:17-cv-01012)). Judicial Watch agreed to dismiss the lawsuit after it received the documents and payment of attorneys’ fees.
The new documents show USAID funds were funneled through that agency’s Civil Society Project to back Soros’s left-wing Open Society Foundations in Albania, particularly the Soros operation efforts to give the socialist government greater control of the judiciary. USAID reportedly gave $9 million in 2016 to the “Justice for All” campaign, which is overseen by Soros’s “East West Management Institute.”
In March 2017, a group of six U.S. Senators led by Sen. Mike Lee (R-UT) sent a letter to then-Secretary of State Rex Tillerson asking that he investigate charges that the U.S. government was using taxpayer funds to assist Soros in Albania. The letter said, “Foundation Open society-Albania and its experts, with funding from USAID, have created the controversial Strategy Document for Albanian Judicial Reform. Some leaders believe that these ‘reforms’ are ultimately aimed to give the Prime Minister and left-of-center government full control over the judiciary.” In the Albanian parliament, opposition leaders have labeled the Strategy “a Soros-sponsored reform.”
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[h=1]2011 Albanian opposition demonstrations[/h]Excuse me but i have not elected George Soros in the Parliament. I don`t like to be governed by his Open Society Foundation and a bunch of NGO. I know that our politicians are a bunch of bastards, but they are the persons elected by people.
 
paul333 said:
The real situation in Europe is that it has actually been the will of the minorities forcing the suppression of the wills of the majority.
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That's fallacy of thinking. Everybody wants to belong to majority, because it feels better and vindicates one's point of view. Trump was sure that majority voted for him, and he was wrong.


The majority has to be respected, this democratic failure over recent decades, is why we are now seeing the consequences, and chaos in Europe today.
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Wow, the world is burning, run for the hills. I would guess that democracy had a great times in Europe after WW2 in the west and collapse of Soviets in the East. When did democracy worked in Europe for you? IN WW2, or maybe during imperial times before WW1? "Make Europe Great Again!"


Metropolitan based urban views mostly suppressing national ( majority )views.
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I didn't know that city folks don't belong to the nation!

If you think that there will be ever a political system to make everybody happy, think again. Regardless, basic human rights need to be protected.
 
Trump wasn’t elected with the help of any foreign power...Merkel or Putin or Rasputin! I was a Trump voter. Clinton was a proven criminal that I did not want to run my country... Trump happened to be the other choice! It has transpired that he is doing what a capable President should do-unlike his divisive and timid predecessor!
 
dominique_nuit said:
As for the other reasons for a declining birth rate, reasons to do with a degenerate culture and sex role confusion
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This is a typical argument of religious person, and it covers all world's problems perfectly. Together with fall of Roman Empire. The true reason for declining birth rate is wide acceptance of birth control methods in last 50 years or so. Even in Bangladesh, poor and very religious country (think, great moral compass), birth rate dropped by half to 4 kids per family just during one generation. This after introducing cheap contraceptives. Otherwise people have sex and kids are popping up like daisies! Simple like this. Sex=Baby People never made kids by choice in the past. They had sex, and vuala. Unlike these days when young families only have kids by choice.
 
OkTex said:
Trump wasn’t elected with the help of any foreign power...Merkel or Putin or Rasputin! I was a Trump voter. Clinton was a proven criminal that I did not want to run my country... Trump happened to be the other choice! It has transpired that he is doing what a capable President should do-unlike his divisive and timid predecessor!
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Didn't we just talk about this psychological phenomenon? You=Majority (think, confirmed right choice=feels good=must be true) elected Trump!
 
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