How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

[hrvat22]

Why this respectable forum tolerate this chauvinistic idiot?

You explain on tolerant and logical way who are the people with the same genes that comes from White Croatia......whether they Bosnians, Germans, Bulgarians, Turks, Serbs, Italian......logically they are Croats..... I have nothing against Bosniaks, Serbs etc. but it is an undeniable fact...That in place of White Croatia existed Bosnia it would be logical that we came to the Balkans as Bosnians :heart:

 

[Garrick]

Why this respectable forum tolerate this chauvinistic idiot?

No one seriously pays attention to it.

Eupedia is a serious forum, anyone who wants to discuss has to offer plenty of arguments. Constructions and fantasies are for some other forums.

 

[mihaitzateo]

Diurpaneus are you serious?
You do not see I have made a thread about Slavic words from Romanian?
Would a non-Romanian speaker able to do that?
What you do not like,that I do not follow the Slavo-phobia of average Romanian?
Or that I said that Bosnians,Montenegrins,Serbs are more Dacians that Romanians?
Go check a little the phenotypes in Romania,from where do you think 20% or 22% Neo-Danubian is coming?
From Dacians?
No,is not coming from Dacians.
Moldovans,North Transylvania people are very closed to South Ukrainians.
I do not deny the existence of Eastern Slavs (from whom average Romanian have more blood,than average so called "South Slav"),I was just saying that is not possible that the people who migrated around 600 AD from North Ukraine to be the ancestors of all Slavic speakers from today.
As for I2-din North ,which have the highest peak in Moldavia,from Romania and is common to Ukrainians and Poles,I did not invented that,is just scientific data.
I2-din North I think have highest diversity somewhere in Moldavia that belongs to Romania.
Which means there this mutation appeared.
We,Romanians,are a mixture of different nations,Eastern Slavs included,but also Eastern Germanic people,Italic people,Greek people,Thraco-Dacian people even some (but very few) Celtic blood and who knows what other people.

EDIt:
Gyms is pretending that Romanians came from South of Danube,but the fact we have plenty of I2-din North proves otherwise,since South of Danube there is very few or none I2-Din North,but I2-din North is in significant percentages in Ukraine and Poland.
South of Danube,Bulgarians have some I2-din North,but that was brought by Romanians who migrated South of Danube or by Bulgarians who came around 600 AD from NE Europe,from today land of Russia.

 

[Tomenable]

Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus, "De administrando imperio" (English):

http://www.antiquehistory.net/rab/porphyrogenitus.htm

"Emperor Heraclius and the conversion of the Croats and the Serbs":

https://www.academia.edu/228195/Emperor_Heraclius_and_the_conversion_of_the_Croats_and_the_Serbs

Gyms is pretending that Romanians came from South of Danube

Vlachs did. Not Romanians as a whole.

Because Vlachs are only one of several elements which contributed to the ethnogenesis of Romanians.

 

[Tomenable]

About Slavic (but pre-Serbo-Croatian - Croats and Serbs came later) colonization of Dalmatia:

http://www.antiquehistory.net/rab/porphyrogenitus.htm#Dalmatia1

And so, therefore, the Slavs, or Avars, took counsel, and on one occasion when the Romani had crossed over, they laid ambush and attacked and defeated them. The aforesaid Slavs took the Roman arms and standards and the rest of their military insignia and crossed the river and came to the frontier pass, and when the Romani who were there saw them and beheld the standards and accoutrements of their own men, and so, when the aforesaid Slavs reached the pass, they let them through. Once through, they instantly expelled the Romani and took possession of the aforesaid city of Salona. There they settled and thereafter began gradually to make plundering raids and destroyed the Romani who dwelt in the plains and on the higher ground and took possession of their lands. The remnant of the Romani escaped to the cities of the coast and possess them still, namely, Decatera, Ragusa, Spalato, Tetrangourin, Diadora, Arbe, Vekla, and Opsara, the inhabitants of are called Romani to this day.

Since the reign of Heraclius, emperor of the Romans, as will be related in the narrative concerning the Croats and Serbs, the whole of Dalmatia and the nations about it, such as the Croats and Serbs, Zachlumi, Terbouniotes, Kanalites, Diocletians and Arentani, who are also called Pagani. But when the Roman empire, through the sloth and inexperience of those who then governed it and especially in the time of Michael from Amorion, the Lisper, had declined to the verge of total extinction, the inhabitants of the cities of Dalmatia became independent, subject neither to the emperor of the Romans nor to anybody else, and, what is more, the nations of those parts, the Croats and Serbs and Zachlumites, Terbuniotes and Kanalites and Diocletians and the Pagani, shook off the reins of the empire of the Romans and became self-governing and independent, subject to none. Princes, as they say, these nations had none, but only elders, as is the rule in the other Slavonic regions. Moreover, the majority of these Slavs were not even baptized, and remained unbaptized for long enough.

But in the time of Basil, the Christ-loving emperor, they sent diplomatic agents, begging and praying him that those of them who were unbaptized might receive baptism, and that they might be, as they had originally been, subject to the empire of the Romans; and that glorious emperor, of blessed memory, gave ear to them and sent out an imperial agent and priests with him and baptized all of them that were unbaptized of the aforesaid nations, and after baptizing them he then appointed for them princes whom they whom they themselves approved and chose, from the family which they themselves loved and favored. And from that day to this their princes come from these same families, and from no other. But the Pagani, who are called Arentani in the Roman tongue, were left unbaptized, in an inaccessible and precipitous part of the country. For 'Pagani' means 'unbaptized' in the Slavonic tongue. But later, they too sent to the glorious emperor and begged that they too might be baptized, and he sent and baptized them too. And since, as we said above, owing to the sloth and unexperience of those in power things had gone wrong way for the Romans, the inhabitants of the cities of Dalmatia also had become independent, subject neither to the emperor of the Romans nor to anybody else. (...)

 

[Besa]

I would also (cautiously, very cautiously) point towards it being Palaeolithic (or the Mesolithic) for the simple reason that if I2a weren't the Palaeolithic/Mesolithic haplogroup there was in that region, I don't see which could; as well as the fact that I see rather improbable that it entered (en masse, that is) at another time:
1. Early Indo-Europeans: Were this the case, this zone would have been a hotspot for Indo-European migration, and archaeology tells of quite the contrary:

John Wilkes, The Illyrians, p. 34
And while in these areas there does appear to have been an Indo-European migration (though not nearly as large as in other places), in places where there is a higher concentration (such as the Croatian Islands & coast as well as western,southern & central Bosnia) there is no evidence of a migration, all the contrary (ibid).
2. Sea peoples: There is no evidence (archaeological or otherwise) of an intrusion of this area that I know of...
3. Sarmatians: In my opinion, Sarmatians are very closely related to Scythians, and they are both Iranic peoples, and they were probably R1a in their majority (especially East Iranians, as West Iranians had much more hg. J)
4. Slavs: I believe what may be a telling point against this theory is the lack of R1a (otherwise omnipresent in all other Slavic peoples) in this region.

This may be possible, but in my opinion only for some (perhaps most, certainly not all) of the I2a.

I voted slavs because they were slavicized Sarmatians.

You're quite wrong. The arrival of the two Slavicized Sarmatian tribes (Croats and Serbs) to the balkans is very well historically recorded. They were invited by the Roman empire to todays Croatia and Bosnia Herzogovina, bringing I2a and R1a.. which is a hotspot of I2a and to a lesser extent, R1a. the same region they came from, probably the Carpathian mountains recorded by Romans, is also a hot spot of I2a... and was a Sarmatian location and contact zone with slavs, which explains Romanians and their high i2a but also J2 and EV-13. The i2a in Slavs is from Sarmatians. later on they created empires and asimilated some of the already indigenous population of EV-13 and J2. Most of the south slavs and Croatia hasn't changed much, still high I2a and R1a, and there is a reason they speak slavic, and slavic culture. A minority wouldn't be able to asimilate a majority, unless we are talking military power which happened later on. but in the start they were invited to Croatia and Bosnia and came peaceful, there they settled and after the fall of the romans, the slavic empire spread all across the Balkans. If I2a was Illyrian/Thracian, explain how EV-13 exists among slavs even in non-albanian populated places, and how I2a is so low among Albanians? The longer south you go from Croatia and Bosnia (The place where the sarmatian-slavs were invited) the less I2a and R1a becomes... I2a became spread across balkans with the spread of slavic empires, like the Serbian empire which stretched all the way in to greece, slavicizing some of the populations.


read more here with pictures and everything:

misiraj . blogspot . no / 2015 / 03 / ancestors-of-croatians-and-haplogroup . html

misiraj . blogspot . no / 2015 / 03 / haplogroup-i2a-dinaric-and-slavic . html



Explain to me where Albanians came from? And how their language has words dating back to the Roman era? How it is a non-slavicized language, non-latinized, although latin words exist, their ancestors might of spoken latin in the roman empire... and non greek-language, except for some loan words. but they share mythology with ancient greeks. they lived mostly in the region today where they live. the EV-13 and J2 in south-slavs is from asimilating some proto-Albanians. But most south Slavs, especially Croatians are the most Sarmatian-Slavic of all, with Bosnians and Serbs coming in 2nd, and then Macedonian Slavs and Bulgarians, and then the greeks (because of the Serbian empire, R1a and I2a exists in greece.. probably the least Slavs and Sarmatians are Albanians who fled to the mountains.

The old Balkan people and the first inhabitants of the Balkans were E carriers and J2, they came from Egypt or Caucasus/Anatolia.. like the Pelasgians are believed to of come from Egypt. Then came R1b with the celts and maybe roman empire, and then came I2a and R1a with the proto-croatiand and proto-serbs.

The Pelasgians are believed to of been the ancestors of Illyrians and Thracians, they spoke a non-greek language and came from Egypt carrying haplogroup E, with some of them being asimilated with greeks. This is where the Greek-Albanian connection comes from, similar haplogroups, similar ancient mythology, similar culture in many aspects but two different languages, with the similarities being of Albanian having Dorian loan words.

The modern scholars dismissing the Albanian-Pelasgian connection is a claim with nothing to back it up. I can back it up with the haplogroups and history, where the Pelasgians came from and how they spoke a non greek language, how from there they immigrated north and divided into tribes. I remember even people here have connected Albanians to Egypt.

Pic of Pelasgian location in the start, before they might of immigrated north:

upload . wikimedia .org / wikipedia / commons / 6 / 6 7 / Pelasgians . jpg


The Dacians are believed to of been a Thracian tribe, which explains the Albanian-Romanian connection, it explains allot of similar words, it doesn't mean the Albanians immigrated to today from Dacia because there are similar words or because there is a tribe called Bessoi who immigrated there, there are tribes around the area they live that could be connected with them too like the Dardanians and Dalmatians. You can even connect the capital of Romania with the Albanians, bucuresti, Alb: ''Bukur'' = ''beautiful''.. male form: Bukuroshi... female form: Bukuroshja .. or male: ''Bukurosh'' and female: ''bukuroshe'' it means beautiful expressed in different forms.

it allows you to express allot of words in both male and female form in many different ways.

The proto-south-slavs (i2a, r1b) asimilated some of the EV-13, R1b, and J2 carriers (proto-Albanians) and I believe by this, proto-albanian language helped form the south-slavic languages.

If I2a is Illyrian/Thracian, and not Slavic-Sarmatian then explain to me the high EV-13 and J2-Balkanic among Romanians and also among some south Slavs like Serbs, Macedonian Slavs and Bulgarians? And how I2a fits with where the proto slavs came from (Ukraine/Moldova) and to where they settled (Croatia/Bosnia Herz) and how it diminishes the more south you go.

Picture:

freepages . genealogy . rootsweb . ancestry . com / ~ villandra / McKinstry / I2b1 / HaploIMap . gif

Location of Sarmatians:

fravahr.org / IMG / jpg / Scythians _ Map . jpg

There is no doubt the Sarmatians carried I2a into Already R1a slavic populations. this explains the i2a among slavs across europe.

The high I2a among Aroumns/Vlachs can be explained depending on where, they live all across the balkans. Many of them asimilating with the slavic population. They have also high E and J2, with the I2a they got from Sarmatians/Slavs. they have High R1b, the R1b could of come from either Romans or the Celts. The Romans must of carried some R1b into the balkans.

the proto-south-slavs could also of immigrated first to Poland from the Carpathians and then to Balkans.

R1a could of come with the early slavic settlements too (Sclaveni, antes) this explains the r1a in greek macedonia, where apparently the early slavs (before south slavs) settled. Slavs were known to of roamed all over these regions.. I don't know why this is not taken into consideration, when it is full of historical records. It is said they even formed a slavic macedonia (not fyrom). This, to me, disputes the claim that the ancient macedonians were haplogroup R1a carriers but rather EV-13 and J2.


wikipedia . org / wiki / Sclaveni

'' '' antes_people

But one thing you people, who claim I2a is illyrian, need to explain to me is how EV-13 and J2 exists in Bosniaks, Croats and Serbs? Please go ahead, I will listen. I'm open for anything as long as it has a logical explanation. And how it is historically recorded the proto-Serbs and Croats were invited to Croatia and Bosnia, if these people are Illyrian, why do they call themselves today with similar names of the ones who settled? Why do they speak a slavic language?

R1b, EV-13, I2a and J2b in anatolia can come from balkanic immigrations to the region during ottoman empire. There are millions of balkan people living there, atleast half of them have been asimilated and have only partial ancestry.

 

[Besa]

Here is a quote about the ancestors of the Croats and Serbs:

Adam Naruszewicz in his work The History of Polish Nation:

"The Chrobats were known even in the 9th century under Constantine Porphyrogennetos rule, who describes them in his work De Administrando Imperio in these words: The Chrobat lived in that times (meaning, times of emperor Heraclius) close to Babigorea where Belo-Chrobat family is now, while others, those who went to Dalmatia living close to France, called Belo-Chrobat, belo meaning white, as they had their own Prince. They pay hommage to Otto the great, the ruler of Franks also being Saxon. Being pagans they ally with Turks. Those Chrobats who in Dalmatia reside, derive from the non baptized ones, ones allied Turks living near Franks and with Serbians bordering." Then he also states: "[...] the great Chrobatia which as the white is called, till this very day baptised is not, same as their neighbours Serbians. Cavalry and infantry has it as much as Christian Chrobatia, all for frequent Franks' invasions."

the reference to them living next to Turks might come from when they lived in the Carpathian mountains/eurasia steppes as a Sarmatian tribe. the Sarmatians lived next to Turkic tribes. exact same area where haplogroup I2a is high... I don't see how the proto croats and serbs immigrated to croatia, Serbia and bosnia, and became asimilated by majorly illyrians i2a but with illyrians adopting their language and culture... it was quite the opposite, they came as a majority and in the process asimilated some of the local EV-13 population.

This is a later quote, but in the start, they actually were invited to todays Croatia and Bosnia, before expanding their empire and like that many different slavic nations were created. The homeland of the Serbs when they came there might of actually been Bosnia and north-serbia.

 

[mihaitzateo]

Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus, "De administrando imperio" (English):

http://www.antiquehistory.net/rab/porphyrogenitus.htm

"Emperor Heraclius and the conversion of the Croats and the Serbs":

https://www.academia.edu/228195/Emperor_Heraclius_and_the_conversion_of_the_Croats_and_the_Serbs



Vlachs did. Not Romanians as a whole.

Because Vlachs are only one of several elements which contributed to the ethnogenesis of Romanians.

Oh really!
I have already written and that is supported by proofs,in Romania there is most I2-din North from Europe.
South of Danube,there is some I2-din North in Bulgarians and North Greece,but few.
It was actually Romanian ancestors who spread I2-din North in Ukraine and Poland.
Go do some research about Gorali paternal lines,see what they are bearing most.
There are some Ukrainian speaking Gorali,that have a very typical Vlach looking.
And lots of I2-din.No idea if it is North or South.
You refuse to accept the scientific truth,that I2-din North can not be of Slavic origin.
I am talking about those people who emigrated at around 600 AD.
And you also refuse to accept the truth,that today Slavic languages appeared after Germanic migrations and Scandinavian language influence,on Eastern Slavs.
Sure Slavs existed before,but is very likely they were not speaking proto-Slavic,they were speaking something else.
I already said a very common sense thing,that Slavs are mostly from Thracians,which got this language after Sarmatians influence,which was not so high and after a bigger East Germanic influence.
How come Italians,Spaniards do not have pan-Latinism,Germans,Scandinavians,English and so on do not have pan-Germanism.
However,some Slavic speakers are having Pan-Slavism and are turning a blind eye at the very obvious differences between Slavic people,as they look and at other things.
Dude,pan-Slavism is so lol-mode,when not even Serbians,Croatians,Bosnians,Montenegrins which have same language and are less or more same people,could not get along well .
You think that forging history will make Slavic speakers getting along between them well?
lol.

 

[Besa]

Oh really!
I have already written and that is supported by proofs,in Romania there is most I2-din North from Europe.
South of Danube,there is some I2-din North in Bulgarians and North Greece,but few.
It was actually Romanian ancestors who spread I2-din North in Ukraine and Poland.
Go do some research about Gorali paternal lines,see what they are bearing most.
There are some Ukrainian speaking Gorali,that have a very typical Vlach looking.
And lots of I2-din.No idea if it is North or South.
You refuse to accept the scientific truth,that I2-din North can not be of Slavic origin.
I am talking about those people who emigrated at around 600 AD.
And you also refuse to accept the truth,that today Slavic languages appeared after Germanic migrations and Scandinavian language influence,on Eastern Slavs.
Sure Slavs existed before,but is very likely they were not speaking proto-Slavic,they were speaking something else.
I already said a very common sense thing,that Slavs are mostly from Thracians,which got this language after Sarmatians influence,which was not so high and after a bigger East Germanic influence.
How come Italians,Spaniards do not have pan-Latinism,Germans,Scandinavians,English and so on do not have pan-Germanism.
However,some Slavic speakers are having Pan-Slavism and are turning a blind eye at the very obvious differences between Slavic people,as they look and at other things.
Dude,pan-Slavism is so lol-mode,when not even Serbians,Croatians,Bosnians,Montenegrins which have same language and are less or more same people,could not get along well .
You think that forging history will make Slavic speakers getting along between them well?
lol.

If I2a was spread in ukraine/moldova by Romanian ancestors then how did EV-13 and j2 get so high in Romanians? and how did I2a get so high in north-east Romanians (moldova area) where proto serbs and croatians immigrated from.. while not so much in rest of Romania and balkans compared to for example Croatia, Bosnia where the proto serbs and proto croatians immigrated to.

this map is kinda off, because the area around kosovo is much less i2a but regardless:

 

[Besa]

Also if I2a was Illyrian, I don't understand how the proto croatians and Serbs could of slavicized the Illyrians when they were invited by the Roman empire to live in Bosnia and croatia, there must of not been much people? If South slavs are majority illyrians then how could the illyrians have been slavicized by a minority that were invited and in addition to that adopted their names 'Croatians and Serbs' and their language and culture without any military power? it wasn't until the rise of the Serbian empire that the military power began taking over ancient Dardania, todays Montenegro, todays albania and parts of greece... slavicizing people and which gave birth to new slavic countries. The macedonian slavs for example are more alike serbs than their bulgarian neighbors, in my opinion, although they might of been called bulgarians... some of them do look bulgarian. regardless, the gene pool isn't that much of a difference between these 3 people. but I know the area around Macedonia and Kosovo was conquered by the bulgarians first, who named the area 'kosovo' before it fell to the Serbian empire.

Also the area around Kosovo, Nish, (Dardania) would be much higher I2a if it was Illyrian because Illyrians lived there, it might of been a contact zone for thracians and illyrians. As I said before, some put these as the same people.

Lets be honest here, I2a came with the proto-croatian and proto-serb immigration who were slavicized-Sarmatian tribes, it's probably sarmatian-scythian, because the proto-slavs were R1a carriers.

The Kurds for example, also an Iranic speaking tribe are high I.

And what haplogroup did the european Avars carry and the goths... history and haplogroups aren't really math.. It's more confusing.

 

[clintCG]

You're quite wrong. The arrival of the two Slavicized Sarmatian tribes (Croats and Serbs) to the balkans is very well historically recorded. They were invited by the Roman empire to todays Croatia and Bosnia Herzogovina, bringing I2a and R1a.. which is a hotspot of I2a and to a lesser extent, R1a. the same region they came from, probably the Carpathian mountains recorded by Romans, is also a hot spot of I2a... and was a Sarmatian location and contact zone with slavs, which explains Romanians and their high i2a but also J2 and EV-13. The i2a in Slavs is from Sarmatians. later on they created empires and asimilated some of the already indigenous population of EV-13 and J2. Most of the south slavs and Croatia hasn't changed much, still high I2a and R1a, and there is a reason they speak slavic, and slavic culture. A minority wouldn't be able to asimilate a majority, unless we are talking military power which happened later on.

Age, place and expansion date does not match Slavs really well, nor does it match "slavicized Sarmatians" (which probably were even heavier on R1a)...
Since we find closest relatives of I2a1b Din- Disles and Isles in Britain, it is only logical that it came from west, not from east. That, and we have Ken Nordtvedt who estimated that TMRCA of I2a Din lived in Poland 2500 years ago, and that current spread of I2a Din "was triggered by massive migrations about 2000 years ago". It matches with Goths very well.
Also Motala12 I2a1b* bones suggest that ancestor of I2a1b Dinaric, Disles and Isles came to mainland Europe from Scandinavia.
Serbs and Croats did not come from Carpathians, they came from west Slavic lands (Poland, Czechoslovakia, eastern Germany), plus there were already some Slavs from eastern Slavic lands present here, but they were not as numerous.
Read "De administrando imperio" please.

I already listed sources which tell that Goths have settled on western Balkans since 370s, and that majority of them never left to Italy to settle- Theoderic conquered Italy for Byzantine emperor Zeno (to reestablish Roman administration), not to settle there. That is why we find most of I2a Din in Balkans, and very little in Italy (max is 10 percent in Trento area, northern Italy).

Your theory, like anyone elses, still does not explain why we find characteristic concentration pattern in Yugoslavia (as we go from Dinaric mountains towards the plains I2a Din drastically falls while R1a increases). They suggested that it was "Paleolithic continuity", but since that theory is dead, only possible explanation is that Goths retreated to Dinaric mountains when Slavs came (as we know Slavs did not come as "peaceful farmers", but as fierce warriors).

And add to that that most of our (Yugoslavian) medieval sources tell of our Gothic ancestry. And that south Slavic languages are richest in Gothic words (Croatian historian Mihovil Lovric in 1976 gathered around 1000 words of Gothic and proto-Germanic words in Chakavian dialect)

 

[Tomenable]

Is this already I2a-Din or not yet (age 3360 - 3086 BC)?:

 

[sparkey]

Is this already I2a-Din or not yet (age 3360 - 3086 BC)?:

Not yet. CTS11030 is phyloequivalent to M423 in modern populations, so it's shared by the Isles, Disles, and Dinaric branches. According to Nordtvedt's estimates, CTS11030 is somewhere between 12000 and 20000 years old, while Nordtvedt estimates I2a-Din at closer to 2500 years old.

 

[Garrick]

I already listed sources which tell that Goths have settled on western Balkans since 370s, and that majority of them never left to Italy to settle- Theoderic conquered Italy for Byzantine emperor Zeno (to reestablish Roman administration), not to settle there. That is why we find most of I2a Din in Balkans, and very little in Italy (max is 10 percent in Trento area, northern Italy).

Yes, you're right that Goths were in Balkans in that time. And Goths who came to Balkans were mostly carriers of I1a3 (Y2245.2) probably. You can read in Eupedia (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml):

"Y2245.2+ makes up a big part of the Z63 in Russia, Ukraine, the Balkans, Italy and Iberia. Could have been spread by the Goths."

In Balkans was the largest population of Thracians. For example, you can see what Maciamo wrote in Eupedia (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ps-with-the-Thracians-Dacians-amp-Illyrians):
[h=2]I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians [/h]"The presence of I2a-L621 in Romania and Bulgaria could be attributed to the migration of the ancient Dacians and Thracians, who emerged as a mixture of of indigenous peoples (I2a1b) and Indo-Europeans (R1a) sometime between 3000 and 1500 BCE.

The Illyrians, an IE tribe who conquered the territory of former Yugoslavia circa 1200-1000 BCE, might have been an offshoot from the Dacians or the Thracians, or a closely related tribe from the Carpathian basin."

According Maciamo, I2a-Din came to the Balkans with Thracians, and later Illyrians. Dacians were related to Thracians.

And you can see theory about Thracian and Balto-Slavic languages (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29386-Thracians-spoke-Balto-Slavic-language).

It is much more likely that I2a came with Thracians to the Balkans (than Goths, who are assumed to be dominant carriers of I1 haplogroup).

It is possible that Thracians had R1a haplogropup too, but to a lesser degree. Of course it is likely that one part of Thracians were E-V13 carriers, etc.

We will not enter in percents how exactly Thracians were carriers of some haplogroups (we cannot). The point is that Thracians brought I2a-Din to the Balkans, it is entirely possible.

Todays you can see I2a in the Balkans is similar in ex yu republics and in Romania, in Slavic speak countries the lowest is in Bulgaria:
Romania (26%),
Macedonia (23%)
Montenegro (29.5%),
Bosnia (55.5%),
Serbia (33%),
Croatia (37%)
Bulgaria (20%).

It is easiest to explain with the Thracians (and Illyrians).

Romanians (Dacians) would have a similar language with Serbs and another South Slavic people if they were not romanized, and conversely, that South Slavic people were romanized they would speak the same language as today's Romanians.

In other words, Romanians and South Slavs are closely origin but due to historical circumstances languages are different.

...
With the exception of the Greeks, today's Albanians differ from all other Balkan nations in the percentage of I2a. In Eupedia you can see 12% I2a for Albania, but this result is due Tosk Albanians. If we can analyse Geg Albanians the perctange of I2a is much lower. In today's Kosovo, where Geg Albanians are dominant, I2a cariers are only 2.5%! Low percentage I2a makes difference between (Geg) Albanians and other Balkan nations (South Slavs, Romanians) and it probably testifies about their different origin.

 

[Sile]

If I2a was spread in ukraine/moldova by Romanian ancestors then how did EV-13 and j2 get so high in Romanians? and how did I2a get so high in north-east Romanians (moldova area) where proto serbs and croatians immigrated from.. while not so much in rest of Romania and balkans compared to for example Croatia, Bosnia where the proto serbs and proto croatians immigrated to.

this map is kinda off, because the area around kosovo is much less i2a but regardless:

Another possibility is that I2a in the balkans came in late, that is after the massacre of the celtic-illyrians by the Romans. 150000 put to the sword and another 80000 send into captivity, the area could have been resupplied with Dacians and Getae ( anothe rbranch of Thracians ) found on the map above in romania and moldovia. these people where aided by Romans and resettled in bosnia, dalmatia and croatia

 

[Sile]

Yes, you're right that Goths were in Balkans in that time. And Goths who came to Balkans were mostly carriers of I1a3 (Y2245.2) probably. You can read in Eupedia (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml):

"Y2245.2+ makes up a big part of the Z63 in Russia, Ukraine, the Balkans, Italy and Iberia. Could have been spread by the Goths."

In Balkans was the largest population of Thracians. For example, you can see what Maciamo wrote in Eupedia (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ps-with-the-Thracians-Dacians-amp-Illyrians):
I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

"The presence of I2a-L621 in Romania and Bulgaria could be attributed to the migration of the ancient Dacians and Thracians, who emerged as a mixture of of indigenous peoples (I2a1b) and Indo-Europeans (R1a) sometime between 3000 and 1500 BCE.

The Illyrians, an IE tribe who conquered the territory of former Yugoslavia circa 1200-1000 BCE, might have been an offshoot from the Dacians or the Thracians, or a closely related tribe from the Carpathian basin."

According Maciamo, I2a-Din came to the Balkans with Thracians, and later Illyrians. Dacians were related to Thracians.

And you can see theory about Thracian and Balto-Slavic languages (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29386-Thracians-spoke-Balto-Slavic-language).

It is much more likely that I2a came with Thracians to the Balkans (than Goths, who are assumed to be dominant carriers of I1 haplogroup).

It is possible that Thracians had R1a haplogropup too, but to a lesser degree. Of course it is likely that one part of Thracians were E-V13 carriers, etc.

We will not enter in percents how exactly Thracians were carriers of some haplogroups (we cannot). The point is that Thracians brought I2a-Din to the Balkans, it is entirely possible.

Todays you can see I2a in the Balkans is similar in ex yu republics and in Romania, in Slavic speak countries the lowest is in Bulgaria:
Romania (26%),
Macedonia (23%)
Montenegro (29.5%),
Bosnia (55.5%),
Serbia (33%),
Croatia (37%)
Bulgaria (20%).

It is easiest to explain with the Thracians (and Illyrians).

Romanians (Dacians) would have a similar language with Serbs and another South Slavic people if they were not romanized, and conversely, that South Slavic people were romanized they would speak the same language as today's Romanians.

In other words, Romanians and South Slavs are closely origin but due to historical circumstances languages are different.

...
With the exception of the Greeks, today's Albanians differ from all other Balkan nations in the percentage of I2a. In Eupedia you can see 12% I2a for Albania, but this result is due Tosk Albanians. If we can analyse Geg Albanians the perctange of I2a is much lower. In today's Kosovo, where Geg Albanians are dominant, I2a cariers are only 2.5%! Low percentage I2a makes difference between (Geg) Albanians and other Balkan nations (South Slavs, Romanians) and it probably testifies about their different origin.

If we go back further for the I2 marker, we do not find it in the southern Balkans in any great numbers nor do we find it in western anatolia....its presence in late bronze-age is eastern anatolia and the romanian/moldavia/ukraine region ...........moving across the black sea was already in process from the early bronze age

 

[mihaitzateo]

Besa,why would I believe that map?
I can tell you for sure that a test was made in Neamt Couny,which is a mountainous area,at the border with Transylvania and 40% I2-din was found.
Also,there the percentage of E-v13 and J2 was not that high.
How can you explain that Serbs have lots of E-v13 and J2?
And Montenegrins have even more?
That map is actually false ,Bessarabia have fewer I2-din that Romania,but has more R1A.
As for what Garrick tells,I also think Thracians had a language that today is closest to South Slavic.
But I think Thracians language got changed under various influence and is clear Slavic is most closed to Germanic languages,from all languages .
I understand a South Slav ,after other Slavic languages learns most easy Scandinavian,not English,or German.

 

[clintCG]

Slušaj 'vako ...

Yes, you're right that Goths were in Balkans in that time. And Goths who came to Balkans were mostly carriers of I1a3 (Y2245.2) probably. You can read in Eupedia (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog..._Y-DNA.shtml):


"Y2245.2+ makes up a big part of the Z63 in Russia, Ukraine, the Balkans, Italy and Iberia. Could have been spread by the Goths."

Word of Eupedia admins is not holy and without errors. It says "could have been spread by Goths".
Z63 is actually very, very small part in our I1. All Z63 in Serbia and Montenegro descend from same Macura clan. And because their oldest origins are somewhere around Berane in Montenegro, I think they are descended from German Saxon miners, who came in large numbers to work in our medieval mines. Berane-Mojkovac was very important mining town- in medieval days it was called Brskovo ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brskovo ). Even its name is of German origin- "Biergsau", completely inhabited by Saxons, who even had their own priests and prince there. So it is most likely of Saxon origin, not of Gothic origin.

Most of our I1 is I1 P109, called "Drobnjak clan cluster", with value of 0 on STR481. Man with same value was found on Sicily, and Nordtvedt estimated that our carriers and he descend from same man who lived 850. He was definetly a Norman.
You can find all of this data on Serbian DNA project: http://poreklo.rs/srpski-dnk-projekat/naslovna/

I definetly do not expect that Normans (who left almost no influence at all) have more of their haplogroup than Goths (who, according to you, carried z63).
Since Z63 is left by medieval Saxon miners, and P109 by Normans, then we have to find what is Gothic haplogroup, because Goths left much, much more trace than both Normans and Saxons. And most logical theory is that I2a Dinaric came with them, because it perfectly matches their migrations, its age of expansion matches beginning of their migrations, and it also explains concentration pattern of I2a Dinaric in Yugoslavia. It also explains why dominant racial types found in Montenegro and Herzegovina are only found in Germanic peoples.
See all my previous posts.

I don't know why everyone expects Germanic migration-period tribes who came here to be so freaking high in I1, when even modern Germanic peoples (expect Scandinavians) rarely have it...

In Balkans was the largest population of Thracians. For example, you can see what Maciamo wrote in Eupedia (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...mp-Illyrians):
I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians
(...)
According Maciamo, I2a-Din came to the Balkans with Thracians, and later Illyrians. Dacians were related to Thracians.
And you can see theory about Thracian and Balto-Slavic languages (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...lavic-language).
It is much more likely that I2a came with Thracians to the Balkans (than Goths, who are assumed to be dominant carriers of I1 haplogroup).
It is possible that Thracians had R1a haplogropup too, but to a lesser degree. Of course it is likely that one part of Thracians were E-V13 carriers, etc.
We will not enter in percents how exactly Thracians were carriers of some haplogroups (we cannot). The point is that Thracians brought I2a-Din to the Balkans, it is entirely possible.
Todays you can see I2a in the Balkans is similar in ex yu republics and in Romania, in Slavic speak countries the lowest is in Bulgaria:

I repeat again- word of Eupedia mods is not holy, or without mistakes.

Give me reasons why would I2a Din be Thracian/Illyrian/whatever?
Do we find most diversity of I2a Din in proto-Thracian homeland? No. Do we have concentration pattern that fits their migrations? No. Did I2a Din form in their homeland? No!

On the other hand, we have TMRCA of I2a Din 2500 yrs ago in Poland, somewhere around Vistula- proto-homeland of Goths. I2a Din is estimated to have expanded drastically around 2000 years ago- which matches Gothic migrations.
And for gods sake, please understand that place where I2 M423 differentiated into Disles, Isles (found in Britain) and Dinaric simply does NOT match eastern Europe. In fact, from Motala12 bones we have evidence that I2a1b very possibly came from Scandinavia to continental Europe. See previous posts please.

I2a Din is highest in Herzegovina and western Montenegro (those numbers for Montenegro, as I already explained, included gypsies, Albanians, Bosniaks settled in eastern part).
It is also area where we find Germanic nordo-cromagnid "Borreby" racial type as dominant.

I2a Din in Romania is as high as it is in some parts of Ukraine- and IMO it is even more possibly Slavic than Thraco-Dacian.

One part of Goths living near Black Sea was actually enslaved by Huns and never came with rest to Balkans. That is why Gothic dialect survived in Crimea until 18th century.

And exactly in Black Sea area near Ukraine in Romania we have most carriers of I2a.
So I2a in Romania is not aboriginal. It is Gothic/Slavic.

In other words, Romanians and South Slavs are closely origin but due to historical circumstances languages are different.

Are we culturaly close? No. Linguistically? No. Anthropologically? No...

 

[Besa]

Yes, you're right that Goths were in Balkans in that time. And Goths who came to Balkans were mostly carriers of I1a3 (Y2245.2) probably. You can read in Eupedia (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml):

"Y2245.2+ makes up a big part of the Z63 in Russia, Ukraine, the Balkans, Italy and Iberia. Could have been spread by the Goths."

In Balkans was the largest population of Thracians. For example, you can see what Maciamo wrote in Eupedia (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ps-with-the-Thracians-Dacians-amp-Illyrians):
I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

"The presence of I2a-L621 in Romania and Bulgaria could be attributed to the migration of the ancient Dacians and Thracians, who emerged as a mixture of of indigenous peoples (I2a1b) and Indo-Europeans (R1a) sometime between 3000 and 1500 BCE.

The Illyrians, an IE tribe who conquered the territory of former Yugoslavia circa 1200-1000 BCE, might have been an offshoot from the Dacians or the Thracians, or a closely related tribe from the Carpathian basin."

According Maciamo, I2a-Din came to the Balkans with Thracians, and later Illyrians. Dacians were related to Thracians.

And you can see theory about Thracian and Balto-Slavic languages (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29386-Thracians-spoke-Balto-Slavic-language).

It is much more likely that I2a came with Thracians to the Balkans (than Goths, who are assumed to be dominant carriers of I1 haplogroup).

It is possible that Thracians had R1a haplogropup too, but to a lesser degree. Of course it is likely that one part of Thracians were E-V13 carriers, etc.

We will not enter in percents how exactly Thracians were carriers of some haplogroups (we cannot). The point is that Thracians brought I2a-Din to the Balkans, it is entirely possible.

Todays you can see I2a in the Balkans is similar in ex yu republics and in Romania, in Slavic speak countries the lowest is in Bulgaria:
Romania (26%),
Macedonia (23%)
Montenegro (29.5%),
Bosnia (55.5%),
Serbia (33%),
Croatia (37%)
Bulgaria (20%).

It is easiest to explain with the Thracians (and Illyrians).

Romanians (Dacians) would have a similar language with Serbs and another South Slavic people if they were not romanized, and conversely, that South Slavic people were romanized they would speak the same language as today's Romanians.

In other words, Romanians and South Slavs are closely origin but due to historical circumstances languages are different.

...
With the exception of the Greeks, today's Albanians differ from all other Balkan nations in the percentage of I2a. In Eupedia you can see 12% I2a for Albania, but this result is due Tosk Albanians. If we can analyse Geg Albanians the perctange of I2a is much lower. In today's Kosovo, where Geg Albanians are dominant, I2a cariers are only 2.5%! Low percentage I2a makes difference between (Geg) Albanians and other Balkan nations (South Slavs, Romanians) and it probably testifies about their different origin.

I2a did not come with the thracians, it peaks in croatia. i2a is highest in croatia and bosnia.

What Eupedia says is wrong. what Ken Nordtvedt says is right, and I'm saying the same before I even knew he said the same.

Albanians in Albania differ with 12%, Albanians in kosovo 3% or something... and they also differ because they have low r1a, they have the least percentage of these haplogroups that are associated with slavs.

If i2a came with illyrians and thracians, explain how haplogroup EV-13 and J2 exists among south slavs? how i2a lowers the more south you go from croatia but is still higher in macedonian slavs and bulgarians compared to albanians who are their neighbors... explain how EV-13 and J2 exists in Romanians and in all south slavs? how i2a also peaks in Ukraine/moldova where the proto-serbs and croats might of immigrated from? but less in the rest of romania... where i2a is high in moldova/ukraine both the goths and sarmatians ruled these places at one point in time

the only difference between albanians and romanians, aromanians/vlachs is they have high i2a

I2a either came with goth/slavs or with sarmatian/slavs.

 

[Besa]

Besa,why would I believe that map?
I can tell you for sure that a test was made in Neamt Couny,which is a mountainous area,at the border with Transylvania and 40% I2-din was found.
Also,there the percentage of E-v13 and J2 was not that high.
How can you explain that Serbs have lots of E-v13 and J2?
And Montenegrins have even more?
That map is actually false ,Bessarabia have fewer I2-din that Romania,but has more R1A.
As for what Garrick tells,I also think Thracians had a language that today is closest to South Slavic.
But I think Thracians language got changed under various influence and is clear Slavic is most closed to Germanic languages,from all languages .
I understand a South Slav ,after other Slavic languages learns most easy Scandinavian,not English,or German.

I alr

already explained all these things. it feels like im repeating myself. this map is not false you can google one yourself and find a pic or look at eupedia. only falls is kosovo has less i2a

Serbs, bosnians and croats have ev-13 and j2 because they asimilated some of the illyrians who were EV-13 and J2 carriers. the majority of proto serbs and croats them came as I2a-din and r1a carriers. montenigrins have high EV-13 because of Albanians and because they asimilated some of the Illyrians (proto-albanians) who were EV-13 and J2 carriers during the spread of the Serbian empire. the serbian empire stretched all the way to greece. which also spread i2a

same with Romanians they have high EV-13 and J2 because they are Dacians-Thracians who were EV-13 and J2 carriers. same as Illyrians. Thracian was not a balto-slavic language. Even Albanian has been linked to balto-slavic. the Daci might of come into contact with balto-slavic and might of influenced eachother.. or daci language might of influenced the proto-baltoslavic language

Romanians have high I2a because they either came in contact with the Sarmatians or goths one of them carriers i2a