How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?


  • Total voters
    230
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Serbia

Migration_of_Serbs.png


Although the map is wrong, Dardania area was conquered by Serbian empire 13th century, they were actually invited in Bosnia, if i'm not mistaken.. this is the spread of I2a and r1a.. actually, it is disputed if they were invited or not. All sources have different opinions but similar. and the above map i tihnk the light red is where they settled first because it is said they lived next to croats and they settled in todays croatia, so it must of been bosnia?

640px-Migration_of_serbs03_01.png


This is how east Romanians got high i2a, and ukraine/moldova, the exact exact same area.. Proto-Romanians came into contact with Sarmatians or goths. one of these the people around the region who carried i2a and r1a. proto-romanians came into contact with balto slavs too.. the proto-romanians were first high EV-13, J2
 
E-V13 is from North Africa,

It would not have been a problem if E-V13 came from North Africa or the Amazon, but there is only 1% in the whole of North Africa and that is mostly through Balkan (Greek) expansion to the area.
 
I gave a lot of sources where Illyrians largerly were identified as ancestors of people of Bosnia and Herzegovina, today's Bosniacs, (Western) Serbs, (South) Croats etc. Of course Balkans as "door of Europe" had a many different impacts and there are variety of haplogroups among Balkan carriers.
Garrick, I agree with you. There have been several waves of migration R1a1 and I2a Din to the Balkans. The last Slovenian DNA work from 2014 talking about that. The last wave was with the Slavs and was not as massive as previously thought.

Besa, nation in the Western Balkans are religious (primarily) and political structures created at beginning of the 19th century. What is White Serbs and White Croats? That's nonsense created by the nationalist historiography to promote the theory of blood and soil. Genetics says another. If you take ten most important families of Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks in Herzegovina and follow their genealogy in the last 500 years, we will come to one tribe or one mountain village (katun ili džemat). That is the real reason for the high concentration I2a Din in the Herzegovina.
 
Last edited:
Garrick, I agree with you. There have been several waves of migration R1a1 and I2a Din to the Balkans. The last Slovenian DNA work from 2014 talking about that. The last wave was with the Slavs and was not as massive as previously thought.

Besa, nation in the Western Balkans are religious (primarily) and political structures created at beginning of the 19th century. What is White Serbs and White Croats? That's nonsense created by the nationalist historiography to promote the theory of blood and soil. Genetics says another. If you take ten most important families of Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks in Herzegovina and follow their genealogy in the last 500 years, we will come to one tribe or one mountain village (katun ili džemat). That is the real reason for the high concentration I2a Din in the Herzegovina.

If there have been different waves, it fits with the goth theory... they came in many waves.

it is recent immigration to the balkans. This explains why Albanians are low in both, i2adin and r1a, particularly Gegs (north-albanians) because when these immigrations happened they fled to the mountains. North-Albania/kosovo (Rugova mountains, drenica mountains) area are mountanious lands... you should see where people live, there are villages/towns in the mountains of north-albania.

If i2a is illyrian explain why its lower in Serbia area while peaking in Croatia and bosnia? allot of those tribes were not even illyrians, like the liburnians. there lived illyrians in south serbia too, how come lower i2a there? how come so low i2a around dardania? if its thracian/illyrian? how come so many slavic countries exist and all are high i2a and r1a? but at the same time they have EV-13 and j2?

I already showed you the document Albanian-Romanian-Aromanian-Dacian connection, allot of those words are thrako-illyrian too. scroll down, you'll see most words are from dacian/thracian. does south slavic have these connections? These are not coincidence. Both you and garrick are just making excuses. How it of loaned from Romanian? the origin is dacian, that means albanians were neighbors of dacians if they loaned, and we all know thracians and dacians were the same people, living next to related illyrians, in dardania there lived illyrians, thracians, and celts... all majorly kosovar albanian haplogrups, r1b, ev-13, j2...the proto serbs and proto croats is a historical fact recorded even by the Romans. its already been posted. Even most scholars agree Albanian language is either from Illyrian or Thracian-Dacian.

Actually genetics say i2adin came to the balkans ca, 2000-1400 years ago with the 2nd slavic immgiration. thats why this thread exists, there is historical proof.. while some insist it's illyrian/Thracian, which its not, or else Albanians would be higher. every other south slavic nation is high i2a and r1a except for Albanians because they fled these immigrations. The romanians and vlachs are high i2a because they came in contact with people around the carpathian mountains carrying i2a, other than that there is not much difference between Albanians and other people, except they less of slavic associated genes.

look at EV-13 it's spread across the balkans, with least in north croatia where the proto croats settled. You tell me how it got there? I can tell you, it was there during roman empire when i2a din came.

Not thracian-dacian not illyrian... you tell me where Albanians came from? Even Albanian mythology is close to thracian and illyrian, and both of these are close to ancient greek, same is Albanian. Same is allot of costumes and culture that Albanians share with ancient greeks. everyone knows illyrians and thracians lived next to greeks.

Have you seen how Albanians wear a white hat, egg shaped? this hat is from ancient balkanic times. used both by ancient greeks, dacians, illyrians, thracians, phrygians...


Its like you're trying to make up a non-balkanic origin of Albanians when they are more ancient than south slavs, there is a reason why you speak slavic. Albanians have more to do with the balkans. there are two languages today considered ancient balkanic, its albanian and greek.. only connection i see with south slavs is the claim of i2a, and some pyramid in bosnia, probably created by proto-albanians.... so all dacians, thracians, illyrians carried i2a? illyrians only carried i2a? then i2a would be much higher all around balkans, even albanians.. its non existent in Gegs, both i2a and r1a, slavic associated genes, so where did Gegs come from? Mars? Jupiter? some avoided these immigrations, while many were asimilated around montenegro area, where E is high.. Please stop lying to yourself and admit the truth. its highest peak is in croatia and bosnia where proto serbs and croat settled and in carpathian mountains, the spread of i2a across balkans comes from slavic immigrations and the serbian empire.

As I said before the r1a and J2 in Romanians and vlachs is from contact with people around the carpathian mountains and north of the romanian border. there lived balto-slavs, sarmatians/scythians, goths, etc..

The split between Gegs and Tosks preceeds the slavic immigrations, so they lived in the same area... meaning they don't have different ''origin''... the higher i2a in some comes from slavic immigrations/Serbian empire.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It would not have been a problem if E-V13 came from North Africa or the Amazon, but there is only 1% in the whole of North Africa and that is mostly through Balkan (Greek) expansion to the area.

haplogroup E came from africa. EV-13 is a sub, it originated in the balkans.
 
EV-13 isn't from Africa... haplogroup E is from africa... ev-13 was spread by ancient greeks in north africa,... in anatolia EV-13 could of come from balkanic immigrations and deportations, millions of Albanians live there as they were deported during the yugoslav era to turkey. And also from Greek Muslims...

Haplogroup-E-V13.gif


haplogroups have nothing neccesarily to do with hair color. I know people with EV-13 who look Irish. and it might not even be a fact, as they could of come in contact with celts and that claim could be based off of that..... there are people in the balkans still with red hair. you can find people from the middle east with red hair too.. I didn't say south slavs came only with i2a, they also broght r1a.. my theory is that they were slavicized sarmatian tribes i2a and r1a as the romans quoted, some mention them as slavs others as sarmatians... I don't think thracians carried one haplogroup.. if they carried r1a it would be much higher.. r1a was brought by slavic immigrations first one (sclaveni , antes) 2nd one (proto-serbs and croats)

Besa , this is a serious forum, not an "Aryan propaganda"board.
Egypt if you search in history was thousands of years ahead of Indo-Europeans as civilization.
From ancient Egypt E-V13 came. Or E people came and they suffered a mutation to E-V13.
As for J2 that came from Middle-East which was also much more advanced that Indo-European speakers.
Greeks were just some Indo-European speakers that came and conquered the advanced , civilized people from where they settled.
Please go study first known laws in the world are in the Middle East.

Albanians are Indo-European speakers very likely the people that brought Albanian language were R1B or R1A or both.
 
@Besa : Aromanians are related to lots of J2,between 20% and 40%.
No Aromanian ever joined Islamic religion.
 
@Besa : Aromanians are related to lots of J2,between 20% and 40%.
No Aromanian ever joined Islamic religion.

Who are these they are related to? How did they get J2 and E? they differ from Alb because of higher i2a and r1a. my point is Illyrians and Thracians carried EV-13 and J2. proto-Romanians are from Dacians.

I don't really care about your feelings or how you feel about muslims or about man made fairytales.. History is history and it doesn't really change, facts are facts. I'm not calling Albanians - Aromanians or Romanians or vice versa, because there is too much i2a and r1a. The way I see it, Albanians are the surviving Thraco-Illyrians, while Aromanians and Romanians, and greeks are mixed with slavs (Not offending) and you complain about muslims? The Slavs who immigrated, the first wave, killed people, the Serbian empire killed people.... I'm just establishing a linguistical and historical point, about the illyrians, thracians and dacians and their relation to EV-13 and J2. I can see people in this forum have problems, it's like talking to walls.. but hey, you cannot steal history and other peoples identity. I'm not islamic, I'm an atheist. You would convert to if they killed your family, raped women before killing them, made you pay money you don't have: there are more muslims of slavic origin, they split because of different religion, why you think Pomaks exist? Gorani? Bosniak Muslims etc? although maybe Bosniak muslims might of been catholics before.. there are million greek muslims, Albanians didn't really split despite of religion. Christians yugoslav and greek authorities deported muslims to turkey,, because someone converted to islam doesnt mean they were ottoman collaborates, people converted to be left alone. you should study some Albanian history.. ALbanians have dozzens of heroes who fought against ottomans. The ottomans were like islamic state. they killed millions of people. they kidnapped kids, greeks, albanians, serbs, bosniaks, trained them and many of the leaders and soldiers were from these people...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomaks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Muslims
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosniaks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorani
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croat_Muslims
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Muslims
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_Muslims
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslims_(nationality)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Albania

Religious observance and practice is generally lax and polls have shown that, compared to other countries, fewer Albanians consider religion to be a dominant factor in their lives.

The same in Kosovo.

You're religious nuts, not everyone cares about man made fairytales.. the way I see it. Christians in the balkans are bigger problem than muslims, who are victims of deportation.
 
I gave only one example (Eupedia). Many other sources speak about I1 haplogroup as dominant in Goths. It is logical if Goths originating from Southern Scandinavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths).
Please, read previous posts before commenting...
There is only one source claiming Scandinavian origin of Goths- Jordanes' Getica. And in Getica Jordanes made many mistakes- such as identifying Dacian Geats with Goths. Part of Gothic arrival from Scandinavia is mythological- Goths coming from Scandinavia in 3 longboats under king Berig (90 people max). So- it is only legendary.

I do think that their distant ancestors came from Scandinavia- but it was much, much earlier than thought.
Even in 4th century BC they lived in mainland Europe. From Wikipedia:
"Pliny[31] recounts a report of Pytheas, an explorer who visited Northern Europe in the 4th century BC., that the "Gutones, a people of Germany," inhabit the shores of an estuary of at least 6,000 stadia called Mentonomon (i.e., the Baltic Sea), where amber is cast up by the waves."

If they came from Scandinavia, I would not place their arrival later than 500 B.C.
They did carry some I1, like other Germanic peoples, but I think main haplogroup in them was I2a Din. We have continuity of I2a1 (and I2a1b*) from Motala 6000. B.C to Ajvide 2000. B.C, and some bones suggesting that I2a1b* from Motala is ancestor of Isles, Disles, and Dinaric- so I think it is quite possible that I2a1b M423 came to mainland Europe from Scandinavia.

I already explained that most of what Eupedia authors describe as "Gothic" actually comes from medieval Saxon miners, not from Goths.

Those two individuals tested can in no way be classified as "sure descendants of Crimean Goths", and their I1 can be from Rus' conquerors as well.


Sources that call us "Illyrian" do so because we live in ex-Roman province of Illyria, not because we are Illyrian...

There is almost nothing that contributes to "Illyro/Dacian/Thracian" theory". I2a Dinaric is most likely from Slavic or Gothic sources.
 
It would not have been a problem if E-V13 came from North Africa or the Amazon, but there is only 1% in the whole of North Africa and that is mostly through Balkan (Greek) expansion to the area.

There are three assumptions:
(1) E-V13 originated in the Middle East
(2) E-V13 originated in Anatolia
(3) E-V13 originated in Balkans.

Of course, E-V13 is subclade of E-M78, which is Northern African (Egypt) haplogroup.

My opinion is when early farmers (mostly E-V13 and J-M12) came to the Balkans, haplogroup E-V13 has already was formed. Probably it originated from Middle East, but and Anatolia can be country of origin. There are opinions that early farmers moved to the Caucasus and over the coast of the Black sea, and today's areas of Ukraine, Moldavia and Romania came to the Balkans, but I think probability of this assumption is less.
 
Besa , this is a serious forum, not an "Aryan propaganda"board.
Egypt if you search in history was thousands of years ahead of Indo-Europeans as civilization.
From ancient Egypt E-V13 came. Or E people came and they suffered a mutation to E-V13.
As for J2 that came from Middle-East which was also much more advanced that Indo-European speakers.
Greeks were just some Indo-European speakers that came and conquered the advanced , civilized people from where they settled.
Please go study first known laws in the world are in the Middle East.

Albanians are Indo-European speakers very likely the people that brought Albanian language were R1B or R1A or both.

This isn't Aryan propganda. There is barely r1a in Albanians. Indo-European languages could of come from Anatolia, Greeks, are majorly ev-13 and j2, the i2a and r1a comes from slavs... ancient greeks were ev-13 and j2 but still greek is indo-european language, so is armenian and iranian.

You're still ignoring the dacian related words, the documents I posted, take a look and scroll down... there is a reason why Albanians have low i2a and r1a, use your brain a bit and maybe you will find the answer, I already posted the answer. Because they came from somewhere else? There is no historical record of any immigration, so we can assume they lived where they lived, added with the latin roman influence.

Some of you people haven't even done genetic tests, you could be EV-13 and J2... what if you're a Serb with EV-13, or maybe a croat or Bosniak? What would you say then? EV-13 is Illyrian/Thracian? How did these people get EV-13?

I know of a group with EV-13 and there are plenty of Slavic people with EV-13, both Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks, macedonian slavs, bulgarians etc...
 
There are three assumptions:
(1) E-V13 originated in the Middle East
(2) E-V13 originated in Anatolia
(3) E-V13 originated in Balkans.

Of course, E-V13 is subclade of E-M78, which is Northern African (Egypt) haplogroup.

My opinion is when early farmers (mostly E-V13 and J-M12) came to the Balkans, haplogroup E-V13 has already was formed. Probably it originated from Middle East, but and Anatolia can be country of origin. There are opinions that early farmers moved to the Caucasus and over the coast of the Black sea, and today's areas of Ukraine, Moldavia and Romania came to the Balkans, but I think probability of this assumption is less.

If the last one was true, it would mean i2adin wasn't there. Anything else wouldn't make sense. It doesn't make sense either way..

In 1647, Dutch linguist and scholar Marcus Zuerius van Boxhorn noted the similarity among Indo-European languages, and supposed that they derived from a primitive common language he called Scythian. He included in his hypothesis Dutch, Albanian, Greek, Latin, Persian, and German, later adding Slavic, Celtic, and Baltic languages. However, Van Boxhorn's suggestions did not become widely known and did not stimulate further research.

There are other opinions.

Take a nice read here, wikipedia is updated all the time by intelligent people:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages

Take a look at the languages, spoken in ancient times, their relations and how i2a doesn't fit at all.. for example Ancient-Macedonian - related to greek, illyrian and thracian? How could i2a be illyrian/Thracian? It would be much higher around the area. yet lacks in Albanians. Can you connect macedon language with chinese? How could the illyrians of had a northern origin?

Or how about Paeonian? todays fyrom, linked with Illyrian-Thracian-Greek? I2a would be much higher if these people carried i2adin... it's mostly high in south-slavic speaking people, it lacks in Albanian.. this doesn't propose a different origin of Albanians as you claim, it proposes that i2a and R1a are newly immigrations which Albanians fled, except for some intermarriages between noble people during the middle ages... there were many principalities, and albanian noble people married for example noble people from Zeta (montenegro) some of these were even called Albanians and sometimes Serbs like the Balsic family and the Crnojevic.
 
The map of dispersal of I1 posted by Garrick is already outdated, because we know that I1 was not present in prehistoric Scandinavia.

Already in 2014 it was discovered that I1 was present in Neolithic Central Europe, in LBKT culture (Linear Pottery in Transdanubia):

Check I1 M253 Balatonszemes-Bagódomb [individual BAB6] here: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/europeanneolithicdna.shtml

Map (the place where Neolithic I1 was found is marked as 8 - note that this I1 is about as old as the TMRCA age of I1 haplogroup):

LBKT_I1.png


And here is my map showing the distribution of types of Y-DNA discovered so far in Stone Age burials in Europe:

The oldest I1 (and the only one from Stone Ages) comes from that archaeological site of the LBKT culture:

R1a_R1b_Russia.png


Eupedia says:

However, evidence emerged (Szécsényi-Nagy et al. 2014) from the testing of Early Neolithic Y-DNA from western Hungary that haplogroup I1 was in fact present in central Europe at the time of the Neolithic expansion. A single I1 sample was identified alongside a G2a2b sample, both from the early Linear Pottery (LBK) culture, which would later diffuse the new agricultural lifestyle to most of Poland, Germany and the Low Countries.

So I1 haplogroup clearly originally migrated into Scandinavia, and not from Scandinavia - contrary to what Garrick suggested.
 
By the way:

Populations most closely resembling (in autosomal DNA) prehistoric Scandinavians, are modern Poles (1st) and modern Swedes (2nd):

Source:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.de/2012/04/prehistoric-scandinavians-genetically.html?m=1

That said, both in modern Sweden and in modern Poland Y-DNA haplogroups are much different than those in prehistoric Sweden.

So probably we both inherited this autosomal prehistoric Scandinavian-like component via maternal lineages (mtDNA).
 
Not yet. CTS11030 is phyloequivalent to M423 in modern populations, so it's shared by the Isles, Disles, and Dinaric branches. According to Nordtvedt's estimates, CTS11030 is somewhere between 12000 and 20000 years old, while Nordtvedt estimates I2a-Din at closer to 2500 years old.

Thank you!
 
I2a Dinaric is most likely from Slavic or Gothic sources.

I2a is not Gothic. No serious source considers it.

Of course, Goths can be R1a or R1b (different sources), not only I1. But probability that the Goths were dominantly or significantly I2a carriers is in the minimum.

You can check your hypothetical idea with Sparkey, he is expert for haplogroup I2a.
 
So I1 haplogroup clearly originally migrated into Scandinavia, and not from Scandinavia - contrary to what Garrick suggested.

I only gave one map for movement of Goths. You can look it:

In pdf file authors give one of maps where you can track the movement of Goths

It was only purpose that map (this is not a Stone Age period), you can follow the movement of the Goths from north of Europe to Iberian peninsula.

I had no intention to elaborate movements carriers of I haplogroup in general, and it is not a theme in this post.
 
Great, keep supporting outdated Paleolithic continuity "trusted sources".
There is more than enough evidence that it is Gothic. Far more enough than Illyrian/Thracian.
Writings of Eupedia administrators were made when Paleolithic continuity theory was popular- but now it is outdated
 
If i2a is illyrian explain why its lower in Serbia area while peaking in Croatia and bosnia? allot of those tribes were not even illyrians, like the liburnians. there lived illyrians in south serbia too, how come lower i2a there? how come so low i2a around dardania? if its thracian/illyrian? how come so many slavic countries exist and all are high i2a and r1a? but at the same time they have EV-13 and j2?

There where nearly no illyrians in southern Serbia, Serbia was the home of the Triballi Thracian tribe, they clashed with Auturiates "illyrian " tribe from northern Serbia. The Triballi thracians where one of the major tribes, along with Dacian, Getae , Moesian and Odyssian

I already showed you the document Albanian-Romanian-Aromanian-Dacian connection, allot of those words are thrako-illyrian too. scroll down, you'll see most words are from dacian/thracian. does south slavic have these connections? These are not coincidence. Both you and garrick are just making excuses. How it of loaned from Romanian? the origin is dacian, that means albanians were neighbors of dacians if they loaned, and we all know thracians and dacians were the same people, living next to related illyrians, in dardania there lived illyrians, thracians, and celts... all majorly kosovar albanian haplogrups, r1b, ev-13, j2...the proto serbs and proto croats is a historical fact recorded even by the Romans. its already been posted. Even most scholars agree Albanian language is either from Illyrian or Thracian-Dacian.

Albanians came via the southern Carpathian mountains of northern Romania, they fled from the advancement of central asian tribes moving west. The moved into Roman lands ( with the help of the Romans ) and resettled in the mountains of modern Albania...........that is why the Romans never recorded any Albanians in their lands until 150AD............I doubt very much that they where of any great number of people. A very small vocabulary , which is why the albanians have so many Romanain and Latin words.

Actually genetics say i2adin came to the balkans ca, 2000-1400 years ago with the 2nd slavic immgiration. thats why this thread exists, there is historical proof.. while some insist it's illyrian/Thracian, which its not, or else Albanians would be higher. every other south slavic nation is high i2a and r1a except for Albanians because they fled these immigrations. The romanians and vlachs are high i2a because they came in contact with people around the carpathian mountains carrying i2a, other than that there is not much difference between Albanians and other people, except they less of slavic associated genes.


who says this?


Not thracian-dacian not illyrian... you tell me where Albanians came from? Even Albanian mythology is close to thracian and illyrian, and both of these are close to ancient greek, same is Albanian. Same is allot of costumes and culture that Albanians share with ancient greeks. everyone knows illyrians and thracians lived next to greeks.

look above to previous comment

Its like you're trying to make up a non-balkanic origin of Albanians when they are more ancient than south slavs, there is a reason why you speak slavic. Albanians have more to do with the balkans. there are two languages today considered ancient balkanic, its albanian and greek.. only connection i see with south slavs is the claim of i2a, and some pyramid in bosnia, probably created by proto-albanians.... so all dacians, thracians, illyrians carried i2a? illyrians only carried i2a? then i2a would be much higher all around balkans, even albanians.. its non existent in Gegs, both i2a and r1a, slavic associated genes, so where did Gegs come from? Mars? Jupiter? some avoided these immigrations, while many were asimilated around montenegro area, where E is high.. Please stop lying to yourself and admit the truth. its highest peak is in croatia and bosnia where proto serbs and croat settled and in carpathian mountains, the spread of i2a across balkans comes from slavic immigrations and the serbian empire.

Albanians are non-balkanic ..............if they where there at the times of the Romans , the Roman historians would have noted the Albanians. The Romans sent surveys to every part of their empire looking for minerals and noting the populace.

The split between Gegs and Tosks preceeds the slavic immigrations, so they lived in the same area... meaning they don't have different ''origin''... the higher i2a in some comes from slavic immigrations/Serbian empire.

One of the groups is ancient macedonian and some are resettled thracian and "illyrian" that fled into the areas, and other group are dardani and some are epirotes. You also will see ancient Dorians who lived in albania in the bronze age and moved into Greece around 1000BC, the dorians of greece formed corinthians or spartans etc etc. The Corinthians retook and re-established themselves in southern albania at the same time they threw the liburnians out of Corfu circa 700BC
 

This thread has been viewed 1094111 times.

Back
Top