How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

[Besa]

The reason why Croats have so low EV-13, but still exists at 10%? is because Croats and Serbs were invited to the region by the roman empire to fight the avars in the region of Croatia and Bosnia. where i2a peaks.. there they settled. they were given the land... they beat the avars and settled there, and at one point in time asimilated some of the illyrians, thats why bosnians (Serbian muslims) and croats have EV-13 and J2. the Serbian empire asimilated some illyrians and thracians (ev-13 and j2) and also spread i2a, ancestors of albanians fled to the mountains and thats why they have lower i2a and r1a.. where else do you think Albanians came from? Mars? only difference between albanians and neighboring countries is their low i2a and r1a...

r1b might come from celts, romans or something. I don't think proto-albanians fled from romans, because their language is influenced with latin dating back to roman era both western romance and eastern romance. proto-Albanians must of spoken latin a long time but also had their own language, they spoke both latin and greek during the byzantium empire, the jireck line which divided latin in the north and greek in the south, but somehow they still kept their language.. in Kosovo they were under yugoslavia for 100+ years, they read and wrote serbo-croatian, still barely any slavic words. Most of these claimed loan words are not even slavic, and every loan word they have their own words... like hajde is not slavic, its from turkish 'hadi' .. proto-alb: eja ... majmun is also from turkish.. most of their common words with south slavs are from turkish loan words.. but they have their own words for all these loan words. Only thing I can think of that is slavic is maybe ''peder'' and ''kurva'' and you know what that means

I have also mentioned the Albanian-Romanian connection and 300 common words, yet they have lower i2a and r1a than romanians.. Illyrians and thracian-dacians were related people, both carrying haplogroup EV-13 and J2. then came the celts with r1b.

Albanians lived mostly where they live today. trying to connect them with tribes in Dacia and Thracia because of commonwords, I could do the same with in Illyria, like scodra from shkodra, dardania from the alb word dardhe which means pear.... or the tribe scitari (shqiptari) or thunaki (thuj) or delmatae (delme) meaning sheep i could go on and on... old city of dubrovnik: ragusa which meant grape in illyrian: alb:rrush... or city of Ulqin in montenegro.. ulk meant wolf in illyrian, alb: ulk/ujk.. same meaning.... conclusion is illyrians and thracians must of been related and spoken a similar language

 

[doku]

Serbian muslims

Are you stoned?

 

[Besa]

Are you stoned?

no, i'm not stoned, there were two tribes invited to the balkans by romans,, white serbs and white croatians in bosnia and croatia from there many different slavic tribes were created. Where did Bosniaks come from? there is no such thing as the term bosniak... in bosnia there live Croats, Serbs and then a group of people who identify as muslims and call themselves Bosniaks. With the Serbian empire conquering lands more countries were created... where did montenegro come from? Macedonian slavs? bulgarians? I don't know the whole history of that... but I know some of you came from white serbs and white croats

I don't see how i2a is illyrian and how the illyrians could of been slavicized,.. yet adopting the same name of white serbs and white croatians who came from around poland/ukraine/moldova area where i2a is high.... and also spread out in slavic countries

Same people killing eachother... relax, I heard Slobodan Milosovic who apparently was from montenegro was haplogroup EV-13, yet he killed Albanians... or what about Zeljko Raznatovic? EV-13? .. what about hitler? haplogroup E? you get my point...

 

[Besa]

You even speak the same language, come on..... What is the problem? We are all humans anyway, if we go far back we came from the same place at one point in time.... Not all Serbs are bad, they are normal people. I actually go well with Serbs, more than any other group of people..... you just think they are evil people because of the war, those are nationalists driven by hate...

And this is coming from a guy who saw allot of shit in the war... before the war I had a machine gun pointed to my face and they threatened to kill me, i was a kid at that time

 

[mihaitzateo]

I alr

already explained all these things. it feels like im repeating myself. this map is not false you can google one yourself and find a pic or look at eupedia. only falls is kosovo has less i2a

Serbs, bosnians and croats have ev-13 and j2 because they asimilated some of the illyrians who were EV-13 and J2 carriers. the majority of proto serbs and croats them came as I2a-din and r1a carriers. montenigrins have high EV-13 because of Albanians and because they asimilated some of the Illyrians (proto-albanians) who were EV-13 and J2 carriers during the spread of the Serbian empire. the serbian empire stretched all the way to greece. which also spread i2a

same with Romanians they have high EV-13 and J2 because they are Dacians-Thracians who were EV-13 and J2 carriers. same as Illyrians. Thracian was not a balto-slavic language. Even Albanian has been linked to balto-slavic. the Daci might of come into contact with balto-slavic and might of influenced eachother.. or daci language might of influenced the proto-baltoslavic language

Romanians have high I2a because they either came in contact with the Sarmatians or goths one of them carriers i2a

E-V13 is from North Africa,J2 is from Balkans,West Middle-east and Iran.
Guess which could be from Thracians.
Let me give you another hint,Thracians are known for having reddish hair.
E-V13 came with Neolithic people from Africa,which people brought agriculture,while J2 came ,still in Neolithic,but people from Middle-East brought it.
Besides,is a large error to suppose that Thracians were carrying only one haplogroup.
I think is pretty clear that Thracians were bearing at least J2 and R1A.
As for I2-din North,why should all be brought by a single population?
Slavs that migrated around 600 AD were very very likely very diverse people,from paternal HGs point of view.
I think this is why is so much R1A in Ukraine,from Scythians,Sarmatians,Slavic people and not only these.
And that map with I2A could have been good 10 years ago,not now .
I think is again a large error to treat i2-din North in same way with I2-din South.
Already written,Serbians,Bosnians,Montenegrins have most of their I2-din as I2-din South,while Romanians,Ukrainians,Poles have mostly I2-din North.

 

[Besa]

E-V13 is from North Africa,J2 is from Balkans,West Middle-east and Iran.
Guess which could be from Thracians.
Let me give you another hint,Thracians are known for having reddish hair.
E-V13 came with Neolithic people from Africa,which people brought agriculture,while J2 came ,still in Neolithic,but people from Middle-East brought it.
Besides,is a large error to suppose that Thracians were carrying only one haplogroup.
I think is pretty clear that Thracians were bearing at least J2 and R1A.
As for I2-din North,why should all be brought by a single population?
Slavs that migrated around 600 AD were very very likely very diverse people,from paternal HGs point of view.
I think this is why is so much R1A in Ukraine,from Scythians,Sarmatians,Slavic people and not only these.
And that map with I2A could have been good 10 years ago,not now .
I think is again a large error to treat i2-din North in same way with I2-din South.
Already written,Serbians,Bosnians,Montenegrins have most of their I2-din as I2-din South,while Romanians,Ukrainians,Poles have mostly I2-din North.

EV-13 isn't from Africa... haplogroup E is from africa... ev-13 was spread by ancient greeks in north africa,... in anatolia EV-13 could of come from balkanic immigrations and deportations, millions of Albanians live there as they were deported during the yugoslav era to turkey. And also from Greek Muslims...

haplogroups have nothing neccesarily to do with hair color. I know people with EV-13 who look Irish. and it might not even be a fact, as they could of come in contact with celts and that claim could be based off of that..... there are people in the balkans still with red hair. you can find people from the middle east with red hair too.. I didn't say south slavs came only with i2a, they also broght r1a.. my theory is that they were slavicized sarmatian tribes i2a and r1a as the romans quoted, some mention them as slavs others as sarmatians... I don't think thracians carried one haplogroup.. if they carried r1a it would be much higher.. r1a was brought by slavic immigrations first one (sclaveni , antes) 2nd one (proto-serbs and croats)

 

[Besa]

This is another map: I don't know how maps can be accurate, better to look at frequencies by country

 

[Besa]

Here is another map of I2a:

How come it barely exists in Albanians? Yet it exists in bulgarians, macedonian slavs, romanians, bosnians, serbs, croats, and to a lesser extent greeks? Same with r1a

Did Albanians come from mars somehow magically?

if i2adin was Illyrian/thracian instead of a recent immigration, it would be sky rocket high in Albanians too, as they are part of the Balkans too, non-slavic speaking people, just like Illyrians and Thracians, but you are doing everything to make them seem like they came from somewhere else. That would be magic, they just magically got locked like that. Where did their language come from? i2a would be higher in them too if it was illyrian simply of the fact that its high in all their neighbors, and most of them are slavic speaking, the romanians can be explained by the goths or sarmatians, my theory is one of them carried i2a there... the greeks and the spot in south albania can be explained by the Serbian empire.

let me guess you are gonna make up a theory how Albanians came from Italy with a boat? Well the ev-13 in italy can be explained by the ancient greeks, settling during Ottoman era, and also maybe the Messapians?

 

[Besa]

here is r1a:

it is non existent in albanians, yet common in south slavs, and greeks.. because the sclavenis and antes or some proto-slavs might of immigrated all the way to greece and even settled there...

 

[Besa]

Only thing Albanians have in common with their neighbors is EV-13 and J2, and also R1b

 

[Garrick]

Slušaj 'vako ...

Word of Eupedia admins is not holy and without errors. It says "could have been spread by Goths".
Z63 is actually very, very small part in our I1. All Z63 in Serbia and Montenegro descend from same Macura clan. And because their oldest origins are somewhere around Berane in Montenegro, I think they are descended from German Saxon miners, who came in large numbers to work in our medieval mines. Berane-Mojkovac was very important mining town- in medieval days it was called Brskovo ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brskovo ). Even its name is of German origin- "Biergsau", completely inhabited by Saxons, who even had their own priests and prince there. So it is most likely of Saxon origin, not of Gothic origin.

Most of our I1 is I1 P109, called "Drobnjak clan cluster", with value of 0 on STR481. Man with same value was found on Sicily, and Nordtvedt estimated that our carriers and he descend from same man who lived 850. He was definetly a Norman.
You can find all of this data on Serbian DNA project: http://poreklo.rs/srpski-dnk-projekat/naslovna/

I definetly do not expect that Normans (who left almost no influence at all) have more of their haplogroup than Goths (who, according to you, carried z63).
Since Z63 is left by medieval Saxon miners, and P109 by Normans, then we have to find what is Gothic haplogroup, because Goths left much, much more trace than both Normans and Saxons. And most logical theory is that I2a Dinaric came with them, because it perfectly matches their migrations, its age of expansion matches beginning of their migrations, and it also explains concentration pattern of I2a Dinaric in Yugoslavia. It also explains why dominant racial types found in Montenegro and Herzegovina are only found in Germanic peoples.
See all my previous posts.

I don't know why everyone expects Germanic migration-period tribes who came here to be so freaking high in I1, when even modern Germanic peoples (expect Scandinavians) rarely have it...


I repeat again- word of Eupedia mods is not holy, or without mistakes.

Give me reasons why would I2a Din be Thracian/Illyrian/whatever?
Do we find most diversity of I2a Din in proto-Thracian homeland? No. Do we have concentration pattern that fits their migrations? No. Did I2a Din form in their homeland? No!

On the other hand, we have TMRCA of I2a Din 2500 yrs ago in Poland, somewhere around Vistula- proto-homeland of Goths. I2a Din is estimated to have expanded drastically around 2000 years ago- which matches Gothic migrations.
And for gods sake, please understand that place where I2 M423 differentiated into Disles, Isles (found in Britain) and Dinaric simply does NOT match eastern Europe. In fact, from Motala12 bones we have evidence that I2a1b very possibly came from Scandinavia to continental Europe. See previous posts please.

I2a Din is highest in Herzegovina and western Montenegro (those numbers for Montenegro, as I already explained, included gypsies, Albanians, Bosniaks settled in eastern part).
It is also area where we find Germanic nordo-cromagnid "Borreby" racial type as dominant.

I2a Din in Romania is as high as it is in some parts of Ukraine- and IMO it is even more possibly Slavic than Thraco-Dacian.

One part of Goths living near Black Sea was actually enslaved by Huns and never came with rest to Balkans. That is why Gothic dialect survived in Crimea until 18th century.

And exactly in Black Sea area near Ukraine in Romania we have most carriers of I2a.
So I2a in Romania is not aboriginal. It is Gothic/Slavic.


Are we culturaly close? No. Linguistically? No. Anthropologically? No...

Do not understimate Maciamo and Eupedia. Maciamo et al. thoroughly well examine an issue before publication on website. Of course, everything is subject to criticism.

I gave only one example (Eupedia). Many other sources speak about I1 haplogroup as dominant in Goths. It is logical if Goths originating from Southern Scandinavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths).

For example you can see www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/
UPDATE4: y-Haplogroup I1 Dispersal/Expansion

One should keep in mind that the range and distribution of all haplogroups in Europe have been complicated by the comparatively recent Migration of "Barbarians" (before about 500 AD) and the Migration of "Vikings" (around 800 AD to 1100 AD). The "Barbarians" were mainly Germanic tribes from east of the Rhine and north of the Danube, comprising of the Goths (Visigoths and Ostrogoths), Vandals, Lombards, Burgundians, Franks, and Suebi etc. Also the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes; plus the non-Germanic Huns from Central Asia.

In pdf file authors give one of maps where you can track the movement of Goths (I1):

You can see movent of Goths from Scandinavia to East Europe, Balkans, Italy, Spain etc.

It is interesting tests provide evidence about I1 haplogrop in Goths.

For example FamilytreeDNA highlights project with two people from Crimea Gothic roots.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/i1-ee/about/news

Our project tested two people who are descendants of the Crimean Goths, this kit № 228539 Afenko and kit № 228541 Aslanov. Their haplogroup (I1-M253) was determined in the course of scientific research laboratory Balanovsky.

Crimean Goths were those Gothic tribes who remained in the lands around the Black Sea, especially in Crimea. They were the least-powerful, least-known, and almost paradoxically, the longest-lasting of the Gothic communities. Their existence is well attested through the ages though the exact period when they ceased to exist as a distinct culture is unknown; as with the Goths in general, they may have been diffused with the surrounding peoples. In the Fourth Turkish letter by Ogier Ghiselin de Busbecq, they are described as "a warlike people, who to this day inhabit many villages" though in the 5th century, Theodoric the Great failed to rouse Crimean Goths to support his war in Italy.

The descendants of Crimean Goths.
Urums, singular Urum (Greek: Ουρούμ Urúm, Turkish and Crimean Tatar: Urum, IPA: [uˈɾum]) is a broad historical term that was used by some Turkic-speaking peoples (Turks, Crimean Tatars) to define Greeks who lived in Muslim states, particularly in the Ottoman Empire and Crimea. In contemporary ethnography, the term Urum (or Urum Greek) applies only to Turk population.

Rumei - one of two ethno-linguistic groups Azov Greeks. Unlike Urums - carriers of the Turkic dialects - rumei speak dialects of Modern Greek language, dating back to the language of the Byzantine and poorly understood by the inhabitants of modern Greece.

...

For Dacians/Romanias. Dacians spoke own language before romanization, probably one of variant Thracian. Dacian language was predominant in Dacia and Moesia. About romanization of Dacia you can read:

http://theartofpolemics.com/2014/09/09/the-romanization-of-dacia-a-study-through-secondary-sources/

Today's Romanians are not Latin people by origin, but only linguistically, because they have replaced their mother language with Latin.

You can see haplogroups Romanians and South Slavs. And you can travel to Romania. In the greater part of Romania you will not notice the difference between Romanians and South Slavs. The language is not always good indicator of the closeness of the people (nations).

 

[Garrick]

Are you stoned?

Doku replied Besa

I gave a lot of sources where Illyrians largerly were identified as ancestors of people of Bosnia and Herzegovina, today's Bosniacs, (Western) Serbs, (South) Croats etc. Of course Balkans as "door of Europe" had a many different impacts and there are variety of haplogroups among Balkan carriers.

 

[Besa]

I don't see how a group of people couldn't of only carried one haplogroup. The Celts are majorly known to of carried R1b, while the proto slavs are known to of carried R1a. I don't see a difference allot of time between Albanians and Romanians either. Most Romanians I've seen looked like Albanians. Even allot of Bosnians.

I gave a lot of sources where Illyrians largerly were identified as ancestors of Bosniacs, (Western) Serbs, (South) Croats etc. Of course Balkans as "door of Europe" had a many different impacts and there are variety of haplogroups among Balkan carriers.

The Serbs were also called Triballians, a thracian tribe, because they lived in the same region as them. It seems south slavs have been called by allot of names based on where they lived, that doesn't make it neccessarily a fact.


How do you explain the EV-13 and J2 spread across the balkans, including in Bosniaks, Croats and Serbs, and Romanians? While I2a and R1a is low in Albanians. As I said, only difference between Romanians and Albanians is the Romanians high i2a and r1a. There are over 300 words I think alike only in Romanian and Albanian. That doesn't mean ancestors of Albanians moved from there, they could of lived same area where they lived today, there could be a relation between thracian and illyrian. Lets be honest, Albanians are either descendants from Illyrians, Thracians or Dacians. there is also a thrako-illyrian proposal.

There are two languages today that are considered paleo-balkanic, and it's albanian and greek. Albanian was spoken in the balkans in ancient times, but it wasn't called ''albanian'', where else would it come from. The dialect split between geg (north-Albanians) and tosk (south-Albanians) happened before the proto-south slavic immigration., probably during roman empire.. Albanian has allot of borrowings from latin, including from the time of the Roman empire. Romanian is latinized. Albanians were in the balkans during roman empire, same area where they lived.. yet i2a and r1a, both associated with slavs is low in Albanians. Therefor I2a cannot be illyrian or thracian.

Most scholars agree Albanian is either from Thracian or Illyrian, tell me of another proposal that has been seriously debated? There isn't enough of Illyrian to compare it to but the surviving words are similar or the same.. Thracian has been linked with balto-slavic? So has Albanian, most of those similar lithuanian words were also similar in Albanian. the theory of thracian and balto-slavic is just a theory that scholars dismiss.

The Albanian language is an Indo-European language in a branch by itself, sharing its branch with no other extant language. The other extant Indo-European languages in a branch by themselves are Armenian and, in some classifications, Greek. Though sharing lexical isoglosses with Greek, Balto-Slavic, and Germanic, the vocabulary of Albanian is quite distinct. Once hastily grouped with Germanic and Balto-Slavic based on the merger of PIE *ǒ and *ǎ into *ǎ in a supposed "northern group",^[9] Albanian has been proven to be distinct from these two because this vowel shift is only part of a larger push chainthat affected all long vowels.^[10] Albanian does share two features with Balto-Slavic languages: a lengthening of syllabic consonants before voiced obstruents and a distinct treatment of long syllables ending in a sonorant.^[11] Conservative features of Albanian include the retention of the distinction between active and middle voice, present tense, and aorist.
Albanian is considered to have evolved from an ancient Paleo-Balkan language, usually taken to be either Illyrian or Thracian, but this is debated. (See also Thraco-Illyrian and Messapian language.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language

 

[Besa]

Here:

The center of Albanian settlement remained the Mat river. In CE 1079 they are recorded farther south in the valley of the Shkumbinriver.^[26] The Shkumbin, a seasonal stream that lies near the old Via Egnatia, is approximately the boundary of the primary dialect division for Albanian, Tosk-Gheg. The characteristics of Tosk and Gheg in the treatment of the native and loanwords from other languages are evidence that the dialectal split preceded the Slavic migration to the Balkans,^[27][28][13] which means that in that period (5th to 6th centuries CE) Albanians were occupying pretty much the same area around the Shkumbin river, which straddled the Jireček Line.^[29][24]

if I2a was Illyrian/Thracian Albanians would be sky rocket high. Both r1a and I2a are associated with slavs, which lacks in Albanians. Haplogroup EV-13 and J2 is Thracian/Illyrian, it explains why its high in romanians and the rest of the balkans, because i2a carriers and r1a asimilated them when they migrated to the balkans. While some must of fled to the mountains or just co-existed and survived.

take a look at this document: common Albanian and Romanian words:


http://www.academia.edu/5766282/Common_Lexic_in_Romanian_and_Albanian._Substrate_and_Loanwords

take also a look at some of the last pages, most of the words are dacian origin, similarities in aromanian, romanian and albanian.

 

[Besa]

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...le/download/203/188+&cd=5&hl=no&ct=clnk&gl=no

The similarities between the Albanian and Romanian languages are acknowledged by all researchers focusing on this
topic.

Again, the only difference between Albanians and Romanians, is Romanians have higher genes associated with slavic speaking countries, their ancestors might of been in contact with balto-slavs and as its claimed (goths or sarmatians one of these i2a carriers) only difference between Bulgarians, Macedonian slavs and Albanians is.. Albanians have low I2a and r1a.. same goes for Albanians and Serbs.

 

[Besa]

But I don't see how they came to the conclusion that some of those words are in slavic origin? It might even be the other way around, Thracian might of influenced balto-slavic, or even proto-albanian might of influenced south-slavic, it's more of a credible theory if you look at the gene pool.

Some of those words could even be in greek origin, like Luan - Leo - Lion or even the opposite.. I don't know how they came to the conclusion of who loaned from who...

regardless, there are hundreds of Romanian - Albanian words that are apparently from Dacian-Thracian. You can find many thracian words and even Illyrian.

 

[Besa]

Albanian-Illyrian:

• 
  
  Andena/Andes/Andio/Antis - personal Illyrian names based on a root-word and- or ant-, found in both the southern and the Dalmatian-Pannonian (including modern Bosnia and Herzegovina) onomastic provinces; cf. Alb. andë (northern Albanian dialect, or Gheg) and ëndë (southern Albanian dialect or Tosk) "appetite, pleasure, desire, wish";Andi proper name, Andizetes, an Illyrian people inhabiting the Roman province of Panonia.
• aran "field"; cf. Alb. arë; plural ara
• Ardiaioi/Ardiaei, name of an Illyrian people, cf. Alb. ardhja "arrival" or "descent", connected to hardhi "vine-branch, grape-vine", with a sense development similar to Germanic *stamniz, meaning both stem, tree stalk and tribe, lineage. However, the insufficiency of this theory is that so far there is no certainty as to the historical or etymological development of either ardhja/hardhi or Ardiaioi, as with many other words.
• Bilia "daughter"; cf. Alb. bijë, dial. bilë
• Bindo/Bindus, an Illyrian deity from Bihać, Bosnia and Herzegovina; cf. Alb. bind "to convince" or "to make believe", përbindësh "monster".
• bounon, "hutt, cottage"; cf. Alb bun
• brisa, "husk of grapes"; cf. Alb bërsí "lees, dregs; mash" ( < PA *brutiā)
• Barba- "swamp", a toponym from Metubarbis; possibly related to Alb. bërrakë "swampy soil"
• can- "dog"; related to Alb. qen
• Daesitiates, a name of an Illyrian people, cf. Alb. dash "ram", corresponding contextually with south Slavonic dasa "ace", which might represent a borrowing and adaptation from Illyrian (or some other ancient language).
• mal, "mountain"; cf. Alb mal
• bardi, "white"; cf. Alb bardhë
• drakoina "supper"; cf. Alb. darke, dreke
• drenis, "deer"; cf. Alb dre, dreni
• delme "sheep"; cf. Alb dele, Gheg dialect delme
• dard, "pear"; cf. Alb dardhë
• Hyllus (the name of an Illyrian king); cf. Alb. yll (hyll in some northern dialects) "star", also Alb. hyj "god", Ylli proper name.^[74]sīca, "dagger"; cf. Alb thikë or thika "knife"
• Ulc-, "wolf" (pln. Ulcinium); cf. Alb ujk "wolf", ulk (Northern Dialect)
• loúgeon, "pool"; cf. Alb lag, legen "to wet, soak, bathe, wash" ( < PA *lauga), lëgatë "pool" ( < PA *leugatâ), lakshte "dew" ( < PA laugista)
• mag- "great"; cf. Alb. i madh "big , great"
• mantía "bramblebush"; Old and dial. Alb mandë "berry, mulberry" (mod. Alb mën, man)
• rhinos, "fog, mist"; cf. Old Alb ren "cloud" (mod. Alb re, rê) ( < PA *rina)
• Vendum "place"; cf. Proto-Alb. wen-ta (Mod. Alb. vend)

 

[Besa]

Many of these Dacian words are even the same in illyrian.. if there were more texts of illyrian and thracian it would be easier to prove that the Albanians are the surviving thrako-Illyrians. The Dardanians are said to of been a thrako-illyrian mix... Dacian is considered a dialect of Thracian..

 

[Garrick]

I don't see how a group of people couldn't of only carried one haplogroup. The Celts are majorly known to of carried R1b, while the proto slavs are known to of carried R1a. I don't see a difference allot of time between Albanians and Romanians either. Most Romanians I've seen looked like Albanians. Even allot of Bosnians.



The Serbs were also called Triballians, a thracian tribe, because they lived in the same region as them. It seems south slavs have been called by allot of names based on where they lived, that doesn't make it neccessarily a fact.


How do you explain the EV-13 and J2 spread across the balkans, including in Bosniaks, Croats and Serbs, and Romanians? While I2a and R1a is low in Albanians. As I said, only difference between Romanians and Albanians is the Romanians high i2a and r1a. There are over 300 words I think alike only in Romanian and Albanian. That doesn't mean ancestors of Albanians moved from there, they could of lived same area where they lived today, there could be a relation between thracian and illyrian. Lets be honest, Albanians are either descendants from Illyrians, Thracians or Dacians. there is also a thrako-illyrian proposal.

There are two languages today that are considered paleo-balkanic, and it's albanian and greek. Albanian was spoken in the balkans in ancient times, but it wasn't called ''albanian'', where else would it come from. The dialect split between geg (north-Albanians) and tosk (south-Albanians) happened before the proto-south slavic immigration., probably during roman empire.. Albanian has allot of borrowings from latin, including from the time of the Roman empire. Romanian is latinized. Albanians were in the balkans during roman empire, same area where they lived.. yet i2a and r1a, both associated with slavs is low in Albanians. Therefor I2a cannot be illyrian or thracian.

Most scholars agree Albanian is either from Thracian or Illyrian, tell me of another proposal that has been seriously debated? There isn't enough of Illyrian to compare it to but the surviving words are similar or the same.. Thracian has been linked with balto-slavic? So has Albanian, most of those similar lithuanian words were also similar in Albanian. the theory of thracian and balto-slavic is just a theory that scholars dismiss.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language

I2a is lower only in Geg Albanians, all other people in the Balkans (including Tosk Albanians) have higher percentage of I2a. Romanians have 26%, Geg Albanians (in Kosovo) only 2.5%. It shows different origins today's Geg Albanian population, compared with other Balkan population.

Thracians have not dissapeared. They were carriers of several haplogroups, among them I2a, and today South Slav people and Romanians have significant amount these haplogroup. Geg Albanians don't have.

Today's Serbs, and other South Slavs are descedents Thracians, Illyrians, Slavs, Celts etc... Balkans was "door of Europe" and it is logical that many people have stayed and mixed.

About Illyrians and connection with Bosnia and around, I gave sources and you can read it. Illyrians probably were I2a carriers, similar to Thracians, you can see in Eupedia. But in this moment nobody can give percentages. Thracians probably had I2a, E-V13, R1a etc.

For R1b carriers in the Balkans there are more branches. R1b carriers among Albanians (16% in Albania) are mostly R1b ht35, called Armenian haplotype. This haplogroup is from South Caucasus and Anatolia.

Latin words in Albanian language are borrowed from the Romanian (you can see for example Georgiev). Albanian and Greek are different, and Albanians are people of the continent, not of the shore like Greeks. And linguists found similarities betwen Albanian and Armenian. It is interesting that accent some words in Albanian and Russian is similar (in South Slavic is different!).

How we can link these specifities. Here in forum there is a assumption that people with Armenian R1b ht35 haplotype came from Caucasus to the today Ukraine, Moldavia, Romania and mixed with (numerous) E-V13 haplogroup carriers. Later, as they moved southward, they mixed with carriers of other haplogroups. For example Dienekes gave assumption that J2 carriers very lately entered in today's Albanian population.

Haplogroups have changed the understanding origin and movement of different populations, and some earlier conceptions have proved wrong. We still do not know much, but the science and new knowledge is advancing.

For example, Illyrian was Centum and today's Albanian is Satem as Armenian, Slavic (and probably Thracian and Dacian).

You could see that Austrian scholars several years ago showed that link between today's Albanians and Illyrians don't exist.

The part of problem is because children, especially in Balkans, learn wrong (own) history. And after school when become people, they don't want to hear another opinions and evidence. For example, there is jealousy in the Balkans to the Greeks and attempts of assumption of Greek history and culture. Ancient Greeks gave invaluable contribution to human civilization and it must be respected.

 

[Besa]

It has nothing to do with jealousy. I think it's rather the opposite. in Albania i2a is 12% of tested ones? the tosk as I said could be from spread of Serbian empire, they might of settled there too, I know for a fact its true. where else did this i2a come from? The Gegs lived in mountains where Serbian empire did not reach.

Take a look at the documents I showed you, all the Dacian words similar only in Albanian and Aromanian and Romanian, forget the latin words or the slavic. But the latin words prove the Albanians were there before slavic immigration at the same place, both Aromanians and Romanians have similar latin loan words... scroll down some of the last pages, most of those words are Dacian origin.. You are ignoring evidence. All the quotes I showed you. and the documents, take a nice look. take a look at some of the Albanian-Illyrian words.

I don't see how connection between south-slavs and Illyrians exist besides at all, Croats and Serbs carry the same names of the ones who immigrated to the balkans, there is even mention of proto-croats and serbs living in carpathian mountains, or the area around there... same regions where I2adin is high or is spread. historical evidence, i've already posted this. the claim that I2a is Illyrian is the only arguement I see? What is the origin of Gegs then? There were mostly Illyrians, thracians, Dacians and greeks living in the balkans and also celts... phrygians and paionians.. which one of these is it?

You are just mixing things up saying Albanians have different origin, and then Gegs, like they came from mars or something? There are only two balkan languages today that exist that are considered paleo-balkanic, and it's Albanian and Greek. the rest went through latinization (Romanian and Aromanian)

A language can also become sentum or satem... I don't think There is enough of illyrian to conclude it's branch. As I said Albanian might be a branch of thrako-illyrian.

Yes, one should respect history instead of trying to forge it and steal the identity of people. I'm not stealing ancient greek history, the ancient greeks were majorly ev-13 and j2 carriers, allot of it in north africa and italy is from them, albanian/greek settlers, and also the messapians, an illyrian people, same region where they lived EV-13 and J2 is high. the r1a and i2a in greeks is from slavic speakers. As for the austrian scholars, allot of it is propganda. they claimed Albanian language is 3000 years old if i remember correctly and that it formed the south slavic languages? that's why I say most of these claimed slavic loan words might not be so. They have documents of Albanian-Messapian.. Albanian-Illyrian, Albanian-thracian... I've checked their site. its hard to find allot about illyrians because the illyrians left nothing... of course you leave ''lost for words'', in bosnia only thing you can find is a pyramide.

Illyrians did not speak Slavic, I don't see how some of the illyrian tribes went through latinization and then slavicization.... the south slavic language would be much different, there would be much more latin influence and influence from other languages. Many of the tribes that lived in Croatia and bosnia were not even Illyrians, but Celts and some are of unknown origin but not considered illyrian.

I don't even understand how people can be so blind It's like there is a conspiracy going on against Albanians, from this site and from the majority of people. it's like you make up any excuse, ''different origin'' , from mars?

Ken nordtvedt is right, i2a comes from a newly migration to the balkans.