How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?


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Croatian E1b types comes from Albania, but Croats did not come from Albania they came from White Croatia. Do you understand now?

What about E1b in Austria, Germany, Russia, Ukraine, Poland... whether E1b is this countries also came from Albania?

I understand origin of E1b in the Balkans, but I don't understand origin of Asiatic haplogroup Q in Hvar and Korčula. :unsure:
 
What about E1b in Austria, Germany, Russia, Ukraine, Poland... whether E1b is this countries also came from Albania?

I understand origin of E1b in the Balkans, but I don't understand origin of Asiatic haplogroup Q in Hvar and Korčula. :unsure:

Perhaps they came to sunny islands on vacation before 20,000 years, genetics will in the future tell about migration of these people and then we will bring conclusion, for now we still know nothing. Perhaps it is a branch from Poland as there exist some Q haplotypes.

Regarding E1b same thing, genetic will say about migration of every branch E1b and then we will bring conclusion, considering that history records mention arrival of Vlachs to Croatia and that there are similarities between Croatian and Albanian types E1b we can assume that they come from direction of Albania, in any case the genetic will say what is true.
 
A lot of people want that I-CTS10228 carriers are Thracian origin, but in reality this assumption cannot be supported.

About 1000 BC and earlier I-CTS10228 carriers were in the north of Europe, most probably in the Baltic region of today's Germany, it is time before than they arrived in upper Vistula region and surrounding.

They were Mesolithic survivors, whose ancestors long time ago were much more widespread in Europe, but unfortunately they had bottleneck.

Irony of destiny, it is possible R1a tribes pushed them to the south, it means in that time they were antagonists.

Gubin culture of Jastorf group probably were culture of these people, I1 carriers had influx and probably Germanic language is result of these impact.

And Croats are far from these areas, Croatian scientists highlight that Croat is Iranian name and original Croats were Iranian, some other scientists claim some other origin (Turkish, Bulgarian etc.) but it doesn't matter areas of original Croats are very very far from areas where I-CTS10228 lived and moved.

So, I-CTS10228 carriers were not Thracian, Illyiran, Slavic, Iranian Croat etc.

I-CTS10228 carriers were European Mesolithic survivors and they became Germanized due to impact of I1 carriers.

Bastarnae were the most likely bearers these genetics (and maybe to a lesser extent Scirii), only later when they moved from the Vistula river to the east they came in contact and mixed with Dacians/Thracins (they first entered in Balkans 179 BC) and Sarmatians, and centuries after that, after Zarubintsy culture, their descendants participated in Kiev culture and ethnogenesis of Slavs.

I think you are half right about the Bastarnae: they weren’t bearers of I-CTS10228, BUT they are the cause of the mutation of CTS4002 that was carried by Dacian-Getae people. If you look at the YDNA Tree of I-L621 that has CTS4002 as first mutation followed by CTS-10228 the following, and their TRMCA (combined with history that we know, and some intuition, of course), it kind of make sense, don’t you think?


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I think you are half right about the Bastarnae: they weren’t bearers of I-CTS10228, BUT they are the cause of the mutation of CTS4002 that was carried by Dacian-Getae people. If you look at the YDNA Tree of I-L621 that has CTS4002 as first mutation followed by CTS-10228 the following, and their TRMCA (combined with history that we know, and some intuition, of course), it kind of make sense, don’t you think?
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No.How do You know that mutation CTS-4002 was carried by Dacian-Getae people?
Intuition ?
 
In my opinion I2a Din comes from Cimmerians... name Cimmerians is thought to origin from Gomer and are thus related to other proto-Germans I2a2 and I1

Thraco-Cimmerian is a historiographical and archaeological term, composed of the names of the Thracians and the Cimmerians. It refers to 8th to 7th century BC cultures that are linked in Eastern Central Europe and in the area west of the Black Sea.
Thraco-Cimmerian.png


After being pushed from Black sea shores by Scythians (R1b people in my opinion ..unlike to G2a Sarmatians) they partly migrated into lands of Thracians and Veneti (closely related satem speaking people...Thracians being closer in language to proto-Balts and Veneti being proto-Slavs)...
they mixed thus in both pre-Slavic Balkan tribes (Thracians) and into proto-Slavic (Veneti)..

expansion happened 2800 ybp from area north of Black sea... part of Cimmerians also crossed over Caucasus and went to Asia minor and probably are nowadays merged into Kurds
 
In my opinion I2a Din comes from Cimmerians... name Cimmerians is thought to origin from Gomer and are thus related to other proto-Germans I2a2 and I1


Thraco-Cimmerian.png


After being pushed from Black sea shores by Scythians (R1b people in my opinion ..unlike to G2a Sarmatians) they partly migrated into lands of Thracians and Veneti (closely related satem speaking people...Thracians being closer in language to proto-Balts and Veneti being proto-Slavs)...
they mixed thus in both pre-Slavic Balkan tribes (Thracians) and into proto-Slavic (Veneti)..

expansion happened 2800 ybp from area north of Black sea... part of Cimmerians also crossed over Caucasus and went to Asia minor and probably are nowadays merged into Kurds

"Virtually all Dinaric I2a falls under the L147.2 branch, and the majority to the S17250 ramification, who descend from a common patrilinear ancestor who lived only 1,800 years ago."
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml
 
CTS10228 is at least 2000 years old... I-Y3548 (age: 1458ybp)...

Wrong: I-CTS10228 was formed circa 5200 YBP, while had TMRCA circa 3800 YBP

Wrong: I-Y3548/S17250 was formed circa 2300 YBP, while had TMRCA circa 1850 YBP

And Croats are far from these areas, Croatian scientists highlight that Croat is Iranian name and original Croats were Iranian, some other scientists claim some other origin (Turkish, Bulgarian etc.) but it doesn't matter areas of original Croats are very very far from areas where I-CTS10228 lived and moved.

Proto-Croatians were not Slavs, they were of Iranic or Turkic origin, word Croat is not of Slavic origin and many Croatian historians say that.


Shouldn't such posts get infractions? Firstly they lie White Croats did not live in the parts where was I-CTS10228 and claim were not Slavs, then they intentionally misinterpret theories of the Croatian ethnonym with Croatian ethnogenesis, as well mention Turkish, Bulgarian fringe theories. All in intentions to make an ethnic group less Slavic i.e. specific haplogroup less Croatian, and more Serbian. This is political propaganda.
 
I think you are half right about the Bastarnae: they weren’t bearers of I-CTS10228, BUT they are the cause of the mutation of CTS4002 that was carried by Dacian-Getae people. If you look at the YDNA Tree of I-L621 that has CTS4002 as first mutation followed by CTS-10228 the following, and their TRMCA (combined with history that we know, and some intuition, of course), it kind of make sense, don’t you think?

No, it does not make any sense. How could they be the cause of the I-CTS4002 mutation when Bastarnae are reported to live between 200 BC-300 AD, while I-CTS4002 was formed 5500 YBP, had TMRCA 5200 YBP? Also, there's no evidence whatsoever that Bastarnae were "most likely bearers of these genetics".
 
What about E1b in Austria, Germany, Russia, Ukraine, Poland... whether E1b is this countries also came from Albania?

I understand origin of E1b in the Balkans, but I don't understand origin of Asiatic haplogroup Q in Hvar and Korčula. :unsure:

Some scholar would have proposed an Avar remnant pushed by Slavs in their advance - I found that in a blog citing < 10% Y-Q and mt-F in Hvar, but it did not give the scholar's name.
 
An I2a1b carrying IE proto-slav speaker had great genetic success 1800-2000 years ago. I2a is native European to the Mesolithic but that does not mean the males who carried I2a1b to success were Mesolithic survivors. I believe it is highly likely they were a tribe lead by a man who found himself born amongst whatever of the various IE proto-slavs. He was probably an important leader with many sons. The TMRCA is too similar to equally successful R1a clades involved in the same epochs:

Code:
Czechs R1a belongs in majority to M458, with subclades such as L1029>YP1703 (TMRCA 1800 years), L260>YP256>YP654 (TMRCA 2200 years), L260>YP256>YP254>Y2905 (TMRCA 1850 years) and L260>YP1337 (TMRCA 1750 years). Other R1a clades found in the Czech Republic include Z280>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP951 (TMRCA 2500 years) CTS1211>Y35>YP4278 (TMRCA 1850 years), some Z92 and Z93, as well as the Germanic L664 (S3479>S3485>S3477>YP942; TMRCA 1800 years). The age of these subclades concord with the historical Slavic expansion during the Late Antiquity and Early Middle Ages.
 
Some scholar would have proposed an Avar remnant pushed by Slavs in their advance - I found that in a blog citing < 10% Y-Q and mt-F in Hvar, but it did not give the scholar's name.

On the Serbian genetic portal or on some forum (I'm not sure) I read that Q in Hvar is not Avar branch, so probably Y-Q in Hvar has nothing to do with Avars.
 
I'm guessing we're a fairly pure Slavic tribe (Croats) because I2 seems to be more common in northern Slavs than people assume, not to mention the mentions of White Croats as part of the Antes confederation, as well as numerous other sources.

I believe the way it is written on this sites explanation of Haplogroup I2 makes sense, that I2 was a minority that grouped with R1a people to create the Proto-Slavs. The more southern of these Proto-Slav tribes probably carrying more I2a than the tribes further North. This explains why other Balkan people (Albanians and Greeks) are rather different genetically to Croats, Serbs and Bosnians. Even Slovenes are a bit different, and they supposedly descent from the Venedians, a different community of Slavs.

However the sheer amount of I2a still seems staggering, I mean what are the odds out of all the Slavs that the minority would be the conquerors of the Balkan peninsula? I feel that's what makes the Illyrian theory more favoured, because its simpler to think we were just always here. But again, I recall numerous sources that speak of the Balkans being heavily depopulated due to constant war and disease.
 
Mongoloid haplogroup Q in the Hvar and Korčula came from White Croatia, is not it? :unsure:

What you say is too simplified, Q1b we can see in Slavic world, among Poles, Ukrainians etc.

Source of this haplogroup were Gokturks, people who linked cultures in the wider areas from Far East to Europe.

Khazars, Avars and possible Bulgarians brought this haplogroup, you can see path.

Pontic_steppe_region_around_650_AD.png


In this moment we don't know how carriers of this haplogroup entered among Slavs, maybe they were Avars?, Khazars?, any tribe later Slavicized?, we can speculate but we don't know.
 
I'd wager that it came from the North and that the current peak in Bosnians has arisen due to their isolation in the mountains.

Frequency-of-I2a-Dinaric-map-1024x706.jpg
 
I'd wager that it came from the North and that the current peak in Bosnians has arisen due to their isolation in the mountains.

Frequency-of-I2a-Dinaric-map-1024x706.jpg

Croats from Bosnia have the most I2a I-S17250, then follows Croats from Dalmatia, then Bosniaks, Serbians etc. This is if we follow official scientific papers.

Why Croats of Bosnia have most I2a I-S17250, this is because Croats as Catholics in Turkish time do not mix with Orthodox and Muslims and at that time no one goes to Catholicism but it was opposite so Croats at that time kept Croatian genetics that was there before arrival of the Turks and Vlachs to Bosnia. It's interesting to see 30% I2a in Bosnian Serbs which says that they are much more mixed with Orthodox Vlachs, Albanians, possible Romanians, Bulgarians and Greeks(we'll see in the future).

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/22Kangars/BesenyoGeneticsEn.htm
 
Croats from Bosnia have the most I2a I-S17250, then follows Croats from Dalmatia, then Bosniaks, Serbians etc. This is if we follow official scientific papers.

Why Croats of Bosnia have most I2a I-S17250, this is because Croats as Catholics in Turkish time do not mix with Orthodox and Muslims and at that time no one goes to Catholicism but it was opposite so Croats at that time kept Croatian genetics that was there before arrival of the Turks and Vlachs to Bosnia. It's interesting to see 30% I2a in Bosnian Serbs which says that they are much more mixed with Orthodox Vlachs, Albanians, possible Romanians, Bulgarians and Greeks(we'll see in the future).

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/22Kangars/BesenyoGeneticsEn.htm

I won't take any sides because I haven't read about I-S17250 and the link to White Croats.
However if you were to look at the frequencies of Y4460 from below, doesn't it look like a more likely candidate considering its frequency in old White Croat territory (Ukraine -> Moldova -> Romania -> Hungary -> Slovenia)? But then it would seem like Slovenes and all of the previously mentioned people are closer to White Croats than Serbo-Croatians.
So, maybe Y4460 is an indicator for another tribe. As opposed to these 2, the remaining Z17855 looks to me like a pre-Slavic Balkan lineage. Maybe that's the speculated Thracian/Dacian remnant.

Taking the Romanian example, out of a frequency of 28% for I2a-Din (L621),


  • 9-9.5% belongs to S17250
  • 9-9.5% - Y4460
  • 9-9.5% - Z17855

The distribution is very even among the L621 subclades in Romania, which is consistent with it being at the crossroads geographically, but looking at Bosnia the overwhelming majority of the L621 population falls into S17250.

S17250
I2a-Dinaric-S17250-frequencypopulation-per-country-table-1024x597.jpg


Y4460
I2a-DinB-population-and-frequency-per-country-1024x544.jpg


Z17855
I2a-DinC-population-and-frequency-per-country-1024x522.jpg
 
I won't take any sides because I haven't read about I-S17250 and the link to White Croats.
But that could be a possibility, however if you were to look at the frequencies of Y4460 from below, doesn't it look like a more likely candidate considering its frequency in old White Croat territory (Ukraine -> Moldova -> Romania -> Hungary -> Slovenia)

Taking the Romanian example, out of a frequency of 28% for I2a-Din (L621),


  • 9-9.5% belongs to S17250
  • 9-9.5% - Y4460
  • 9-9.5% - Z17855

The distribution is very even among the L621 subclades in Romania, which is consistent with it being at the crossroads geographically, but looking at Bosnia the overwhelming majority of the L621 population falls into S17250.

S17250
I2a-Dinaric-S17250-frequencypopulation-per-country-table-1024x597.jpg


Y4460
I2a-DinB-population-and-frequency-per-country-1024x544.jpg


Z17855
I2a-DinC-population-and-frequency-per-country-1024x522.jpg

Data at the charts are not precise, first of all, there are not many people I-CTS10228+ tested on the deeper subclades from Romania and Moldova; second, it is a big territory there might be regional differences: for example in anonymous researches in Western Wallachia (Olt, Dolj, Mehedinci) dominant subclade among CTS10228 is Dinaric South DYS448=19, which is also prevalent subclade of Western Bulgaria and East Serbia (so-called Shopluk) and also in Western Balkan. While in Calarasi region in Southeastern Wallachia majority of tested CTS10228 results are Dinaric North DYS448=20.
From public projects there are at least 7 Romanians with Romanian surnames tested as S17250>>PH908, one Dinaric North S17250, two people (including you) confirmed as S17250 without haplotypes, two people tested as S17250>>Z16971, plus 3 Dinaric North Y4460 and one Z17855.
The sample is not big, but very likely S17250 is a dominant subclade in Romania, it is also dominant subclade in general and make up approximately 60% of all CTS10228 and probably half of them are Dinaric South or PH908. Y4460 is the second common subclade with +40%.
While Z17855 probably takes about 5-6%, mostly appears in Balkan, especially in Central Bulgaria among speakers of the Central Balkan dialect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Balkan_dialect, Greek Macedonia, Western FYR Macedonia, South Serbia and Montenegro. In my opinion, it will be a dominant subclade of Albanian CTS10228, too. Z17855 is to some extent present among Hungarians east from Danube and North Carpathians, so the guy who calculated the distribution of subclades among Romanians probably mistakenly includes tested Hungarian from Transylvania or just make a wrong prediction. Also among East Slavs (Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians) and Poles Z17855 almost non-existent, so graf is very likely wrong.
 
Data at the charts are not precise, first of all, there are not many people I-CTS10228+ tested on the deeper subclades from Romania and Moldova; second, it is a big territory there might be regional differences: for example in anonymous researches in Western Wallachia (Olt, Dolj, Mehedinci) dominant subclade among CTS10228 is Dinaric South DYS448=19, which is also prevalent subclade of Western Bulgaria and East Serbia (so-called Shopluk) and also in Western Balkan. While in Calarasi region in Southeastern Wallachia majority of tested CTS10228 results are Dinaric North DYS448=20.
From public projects there are at least 7 Romanians with Romanian surnames tested as S17250>>PH908, one Dinaric North S17250, two people (including you) confirmed as S17250 without haplotypes, two people tested as S17250>>Z16971, plus 3 Dinaric North Y4460 and one Z17855.
The sample is not big, but very likely S17250 is a dominant subclade in Romania, it is also dominant subclade in general and make up approximately 60% of all CTS10228 and probably half of them are Dinaric South or PH908. Y4460 is the second common subclade with +40%.
While Z17855 probably takes about 5-6%, mostly appears in Balkan, especially in Central Bulgaria among speakers of the Central Balkan dialect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Balkan_dialect, Greek Macedonia, Western FYR Macedonia, South Serbia and Montenegro. In my opinion, it will be a dominant subclade of Albanian CTS10228, too. Z17855 is to some extent present among Hungarians east from Danube and North Carpathians, so the guy who calculated the distribution of subclades among Romanians probably mistakenly includes tested Hungarian from Transylvania or just make a wrong prediction. Also among East Slavs (Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians) and Poles Z17855 almost non-existent, so graf is very likely wrong.

Hmm, interesting, I'll have to dig deeper.
Do you have any compendium on I2-Din in this region?

I'll get the panel from YSEQ soon btw, so I'll hopefully get a deeper look at subclade level. My current assignment is via livingdna.
 

Mutation CTS10228 ancestor of S17250 also has source in White Croatia or that wider area.

If we follow current time from YFull tree https://yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/ we see that subclade S17250 TMRCA is 1750 ybp, I-Y4460 TMRCA is 2100 ybp and Z17855 TMRCA is 1450 ybp.

In my opinion I-Y4460 (TMRCA 2100 ybp) leaving White Croatia before formation of subclade S17250 and probably migrate towards Bulgaria, Romania, Ukraine etc. And because of this Croats do not have this subclade in significant percentage.


Regarding Z17855 subclade we see that same exists in small percentage in Croatia, there is a possibility that Z17855 coming to Croatia from direction of Romania, Bulgaria during the Turkish occupation. We will know exactly in the future. That Z17855 existed in White Croatia in the time of migration to Croatia then Croats also must have Z17855 subclade but that's not the case. Interestingly in Romania you have three branches of CTS10228 which indicates that first migrations went in direction of east Balkans while we in Croatia have mostly one branch.

An issue is that subclade Z17855 has TMRCA 1450 ybp and it is approximately time of Croatian migration to Balkans, then why Croats do not have it? Maybe TMRCA will be corrected in the future because it changes from time to time.
That subclade Z17855 has TMRCA 1000 ybp then this mutation arose after Croatian migration from White Croatia and therefore Croatians today do not have it and this would be a logical conclusion.
 
Hmm, interesting, I'll have to dig deeper.
Do you have any compendium on I2-Din in this region?

I'll get the panel from YSEQ soon btw, so I'll hopefully get a deeper look at subclade level. My current assignment is via livingdna.

I forgot to mention, there are about ten Dinaric North (DYS448=20) results from public projects with Romanian surnames without tested any subclade. This is not enough for a big country like Romania, but anyway would be great if some of them take additional tests.
I have an excel file with haplotypes from scientific researches and public projects (including Ysearch), I am not sure how much haplotypes probably several thousands. I have not put it on one worksheet, every country has a different sheet, but plan to marge tables soon to make easier for comparison and search.
Tables include the name of the scientific studies and regions, some haplotypes appear two times because it is used in more than one study but STR markers are extended in the second.
Here is statistic from scientific studies https://s15.postimg.cc/3pqaxv74b/image.jpg
I have to include some more studies and statistic from studies where haplotypes are not available but it is needed to make the picture complete.
 

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