Hi Mikewww. I wanted to say that the mutation on M173 to M343 happened in iberia, so I'm saying R1b was originated in Iberia. There are people in the thread wondering how was possible to bring horses in ancient boats, then I told how was no needed to brought horses into Iberia, cause there are signs of a parallel independent domestication of horse in the Iberian peninsula.
 
Hi Mikewww. I wanted to say that the mutation on M173 to M343 happened in iberia, so I'm saying R1b was originated in Iberia. There are people in the thread wondering how was possible to bring horses in ancient boats, then I told how was no needed to brought horses into Iberia, cause there are signs of a parallel independent domestication of horse in the Iberian peninsula.

R1b did not originate in Iberia. Why do you still keep believing this? There is no data to back such a claim up. You can also check the tree of R1b again: http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-tree.gif - all the more ancient subclades of R1b are found outside of Western Europe. There is not even a particularly good reason to assume that it entered Europe via Iberia. If you take a look at the data from Family Tree DNA which I posted earlier, the only really abundant subclade of R1b is P312, and as it was speculated in another thread, much of it probably is part of subclade DF27.

Also, as LeBrok pointed out, only mitochondrial horse lineages seem to have an independent origin in Iberia, which means that local mares were interbred with stallions from the steppe, not that horses were domesticated independently. If it was, how is this connected with R1b?

Back on the original topic, it should be pointed out that we do not know at what point the Basques became R1b-dominant.
 
You can continue with that outdated northicist IE supremacy theories from early XX century Central Europe ideas. But I must to tell you that celtithity was originated in the iberian peninsula by the R1b people.

What are you trying tp prove with that your own made map?. I couldn't understood... It say nothing about R1b origins, adding that it had built by you or your ideology mates.

In Iberia wasn't extincted the horses in holocene period, in the rest of europe done. Here were 2 horse species capable to be rode. Here are Paleolithic cave paints with horse domestication scenes. Today ramain 2 races from that wild authochthonous iberian horses, the lusitanian and the sorraia mustangs. If in the actual horse selection there are mtcdADN is because there were a specie apt to ride on, as the females the males. This is a common sense matter.

About the basques I'll repeat the same. The basques of today weren't the original basque speakers, they were probably southern cromanoids, the basques were their close neighbors whose adopted that language as own, but the basques of today descend from the first celts.
 
You can continue with that outdated northicist IE supremacy theories from early XX century Central Europe ideas. But I must to tell you that celtithity was originated in the iberian peninsula by the R1b people.

Funny, that accusation makes no sense, because I wasn't even talking about the Celtic languages. I was only talking about the origin of R1b, which didn't originate on the Iberian peninsula.

I find the accusation especially funny because I argued earlier that Celtic languages were actually spoken in Bronze Age iberia:

With regard for Celtic presence in Iberia, I disagree with Maciamo's statement that Celtic (or Indo-European) presence arrived in Iberia only in the iron age. Presence in the north and west of Iberia is so dense and there is no clear sign of a pre-Indo-European presence in western Iberia. To me thus suggests that Indo-European-speaking peoples arrived in Iberia already in the Bronze Age. The Basques of Antiquity - in contrast - lived in a more easterly area than today (Navarre, western to central Pyrenees, SW France).


What are you trying tp prove with that your own made map?. I couldn't understood... It say nothing about R1b origins, adding that it had built by you or your ideology mates.

Maciamo isn't an "ideological mate" because there is no ideology involved: I was merely talking about the distributions of the various subclades of R1b. But if you do not like Maciamo's tree, you can also take this tree from ISOGG. Work yourself up that tree, you will realize that the most ancient subclades of R1b are found nowhere near Iberia.

In Iberia wasn't extincted the horses in holocene period, in the rest of europe done. Here were 2 horse species capable to be rode. Here are Paleolithic cave paints with horse domestication scenes. Today ramain 2 races from that wild authochthonous iberian horses, the lusitanian and the sorraia mustangs. If in the actual horse selection there are mtcdADN is because there were a specie apt to ride on, as the females the males. This is a common sense matter.

About the basques I'll repeat the same. The basques of today weren't the original basque speakers, they were probably southern cromanoids, the basques were their close neighbors whose adopted that language as own, but the basques of today descend from the first celts.

Sorry, but if the "Celts" really domesticated horses independently, why do the Celtic languages have a common word for "horse" shared with other branches of Indo-European?
 
Funny, that accusation makes no sense, because I wasn't even talking about the Celtic languages. I was only talking about the origin of R1b, which didn't originate on the Iberian peninsula.

Well, this is your think against mine, because the origin of M173 is unknown.

I find the accusation especially funny because I argued earlier that Celtic languages were actually spoken in Bronze Age iberia:






Maciamo isn't an "ideological mate" because there is no ideology involved: I was merely talking about the distributions of the various subclades of R1b. But if you do not like Maciamo's tree, you can also take this tree from ISOGG. Work yourself up that tree, you will realize that the most ancient subclades of R1b are found nowhere near Iberia.

These trees only show the chronological order of the subclades, no more, no less. I don't know what do you pretend to prove with these...
When you said "r1b (origin)are found nowhere near to Iberia" you must to say " r1b origin aren't found near to nowhere, and I think you know so good that, so you are confusing at readers, only that.





Sorry, but if the "Celts" really domesticated horses independently, why do the Celtic languages have a common word for "horse" shared with other branches of Indo-European?

I'm saying horse was domesticated in Iberia time ago before celt was an identity, probably by cromagnoids. I don't know if cromagnoids taught celts to domesticate its or was an independent event. I think the M-173 subclade arrives to iberia by boats maybe in neolithic or copper age, and then happend the mutation to M-343 asociated to celts into the iberian peninsula, probably in the SW.

On this source you all can read how the origins of R-M173 remain unclear:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M173_(Y-DNA)
 
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Personally, I am not really concerned about horses and where they were domesticated unless it can be tied to population movements and it probably can.

I have just discovered this site about cro-magnon man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnon. In the article:

"The name derives from the Abri de Cro-Magnon (French: rock shelter of Cro-Magnon, the big cave in Occitan) near the commune of Les Eyzies-de-Tayac-Sireuil in southwestern France, where the first specimen was found.[6] Being the oldest known modern humans (Homo sapiens sapiens) in Europe, the Cro-Magnons were from the outset linked to the well-known Lascaux cave paintings and the Aurignacian culture whose remains were well known from southern France and Germany."

9k=


What is interesting to me about that is I have traced my surname (although without definite proof) to the Tulle area of Correze in France very near where this skeleton was found near ( Les Eyzies-de-Tayac-Sireuil in southwestern France). Also, there is a photo (above) of a reconstructed Cro-Magnon 30,000 YPB on that site and if you put a Greek nose on him I would look very similar (I am much more handsome though!). The brow ridge on him is more pronounced on him than me but I do have (and all of the male members of my family) the extreme receding hair line, the high forehead, the high cheek bones and wide face and my hat size is at least XL. Interestingly enough my blood type is A negative which fits right in with the Basques who have one of the highest rates of rhesus negative blood types in the world.

The comparison of my STR markers and SNPs are close but I can't really tell. Should I join the Basque y-DNA project.

Curtis Pigman (France - Pigmon / Greece - Pygmon)
You can continue with that outdated northicist IE supremacy theories from early XX century Central Europe ideas. But I must to tell you that celtithity was originated in the iberian peninsula by the R1b people.



What are you trying tp prove with that your own made map?. I couldn't understood... It say nothing about R1b origins, adding that it had built by you or your ideology mates.

In Iberia wasn't extincted the horses in holocene period, in the rest of europe done. Here were 2 horse species capable to be rode. Here are Paleolithic cave paints with horse domestication scenes. Today ramain 2 races from that wild authochthonous iberian horses, the lusitanian and the sorraia mustangs. If in the actual horse selection there are mtcdADN is because there were a specie apt to ride on, as the females the males. This is a common sense matter.

About the basques I'll repeat the same. The basques of today weren't the original basque speakers, they were probably southern cromanoids, the basques were their close neighbors whose adopted that language as own, but the basques of today descend from the first celts.
 
Personally, I am not really concerned about horses and where they were domesticated unless it can be tied to population movements and it probably can.

I have just discovered this site about cro-magnon man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnon. In the article:

"The name derives from the Abri de Cro-Magnon (French: rock shelter of Cro-Magnon, the big cave in Occitan) near the commune of Les Eyzies-de-Tayac-Sireuil in southwestern France, where the first specimen was found.[6] Being the oldest known modern humans (Homo sapiens sapiens) in Europe, the Cro-Magnons were from the outset linked to the well-known Lascaux cave paintings and the Aurignacian culture whose remains were well known from southern France and Germany."

9k=


What is interesting to me about that is I have traced my surname (although without definite proof) to the Tulle area of Correze in France very near where this skeleton was found near ( Les Eyzies-de-Tayac-Sireuil in southwestern France). Also, there is a photo (above) of a reconstructed Cro-Magnon 30,000 YPB on that site and if you put a Greek nose on him I would look very similar (I am much more handsome though!). The brow ridge on him is more pronounced on him than me but I do have (and all of the male members of my family) the extreme receding hair line, the high forehead, the high cheek bones and wide face and my hat size is at least XL. Interestingly enough my blood type is A negative which fits right in with the Basques who have one of the highest rates of rhesus negative blood types in the world.

The comparison of my STR markers and SNPs are close but I can't really tell. Should I join the Basque y-DNA project.

Curtis Pigman (France - Pigmon / Greece - Pygmon)

Oh I forgot to mention in the previous post. In this Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Basques
[h=1]Origin of the Basques[/h] "This hypothesis states that, after the glaciations, the survivors of the Cro-Magnon in the European continent searched for warmer places, such as present-day Ukraine and the southwest of the continent,[1] settling in the region of the Pyrenees[2] and the south of France, due the mitigation of the cold due the Foehn effect.[2] These settlements near the Pyrenees conformed the proto-Basque people.


Distribution of Paleolithic settlements in Europe.


Starting in the year 16,000 BCE, the warmer climate allowed the expansion of proto-Basque groups, or proto-Europeans, across the entire continent and the north of Africa,[1][3] and expanding the Magdalenian culture across Europe.
This hypothesis is supported by three different research works, one of them genetic (based on the studies of Forster and Stephen Oppenheimer), the other two linguistic (the works of Theo Venneman)[citation needed].
The Finnish linguist Kalevi Wiik proposed in 2008 that the current Basque language is the remainder of a group of "Basque languages" that were spoken in the Paleolithic in all western Europe.[4] and that retreated with the progress of the Indo-European languages. According to Wiik, this theory coincides with the homogeneous distribution of the Haplogroup R1b in Atlantic Europe.[5]
[h=4]Paleogenetic investigations[/h] The geneticist Spencer Wells, director of the Genographic Project of the National Geographic Society has pointed out that, genetically, the Basques are indistinguishable of the rest of Iberians,[6] a fact that has been later confirmed by a study led by Jaume Bentranpetit, at the Pompeu Fabra University, in Barcelona.[7]"



So, as you can see this puts it all together in a hypothetical sort of way.

Curtis Pigman (France - Pigmon / Greece - Pygmon)
 
Pi gman, here's a scenerio that may clue you in to the inner-workings of the y-haplogroup scientific crowd.

NASA announces we have been visited by space aliens from a distant galaxy, one that is THOUSANDS of light years away. The media is in a frenzy, the world view is altered for all humankind, and wars are now deemed unneccessary.

Fifteen minutes later Spencer Wells claims that these aliens are projected to be members of his own haplogroup... hg R1b.

Are you starting to see the pattern? If there's a subject matter that is more political, more egocentric, more illustrative of man's tendency to trumpet his ancestors success (real or imagined) over those of his neighbor's... well I want to see it.

So wade into your Paleolithic Basque hypothesis carefully, and bring your sense of humor. You're going to need it. If you don't trust my read on the y-DNA realm, please spend five minutes reviewing any Albanian thread you can find.

After we are all one shade of tawny brown in eight hundred or eight thousand years, this is the stuff we are going to be arguing about... if not waging battles over. Welcome to the future Pi gman! May the force be with you...
 
Before the attacks begin...

Yes I'm as guilty as anyone else. Let the arrows commence.
 
Basques speak probably the most genuine language in Europe, and it's not true at all that they are indistinguishable from the rest of Iberians: in fact, they are, since they fall clearly outside of the normal European variation, as do the Sardinians. They seem to be the most well preserved populations in Europe nowadays, but this has very little to do with Y-DNA (a single ancestor) and, no need to say, claiming they are direct Cro-Magnon's descent and things like this...you know, that's all exageration.
 
Thank you for your reply. I have been testing my y-DNA and participating in these forums for 3 years now and I know about the attacks and condescension going on.

My take on this is: If you meet with four friends/acquaintances for coffee regularly at the local coffee shop for discussion on whatever subject, you will have four different ways of thinking or parameters about the subject and four different opinions on the supporting information. For instance: My goals are to find my ancestors country of origin and I believe I have done that by looking at history, investigation family lore, comparing y-DNA STRs and SNP, etc. What qualifies as proof? Well, the professional genealogists will not consider it proof until birth, death and marriage certificates are found. Even a census is not to be trusted 100%. In some cases they simply do not exist such as in the 17th and 18th century Colonial American wilderness. If the records did exist somewhere they were burned in a courthouse fire or lost.

The historical records of population movements, wars, diseases can be trusted if they were written by a known reliable source.
Linguists can make a case of similarities between languages and physical anthropology. Physical anthropologists can make a case by using cranial morphology (I use Dienekes racial calculator). Geologists use sediment layers to calculate YBP data and other scientists use radio carbon dating for finding the age of organic material. y-DNA is frustrating because after three years and several tests I have realized that some of my closest matches don't even fit my haplogroup.
Nevertheless, we push on and look for tidbits of information and wait patiently until some genealogy society puts information up on a web site and: Finally! There it is!

The genetic scientific crowd is sort of like Ross in "Friends". When he is junior to the other paleontologists, he is ostracized and even cannot sit with them in the lunchroom. If he happens to not agree with the other scientists' theories he is severely ostracized. When his friends tell him something like "dinosaurs didn't even exist" he is utterly insulted and goes off on a tangent. Of course, they were just messing with him!

My career was in tele-communications technology but I was also interested in cultural anthropology and sociology and studied these subjects to some extent in college. So, I have a keen interest in anthropology, population studies and evolution, genetics as well as genealogy and have had since the 60's.

About the arrows, I have had them shot at me before and that's OK because I can see them coming from the computer screen
and simply dodge them and about the sense of humor, well as you can see, I have one of those too!

As far as opinions go, I served 6 years in the USAF so that we could continue to be free to express our ideas and opinions (hopefully backed up by evidential support). So lets all meet for coffee and discuss things like the adults we are. Pull up a chair. I'll buy the coffee!

Curtis Pigman (France - Pigmon / Greece - Pygmon)


Pi gman, here's a scenerio that may clue you in to the inner-workings of the y-haplogroup scientific crowd.

NASA announces we have been visited by space aliens from a distant galaxy, one that is THOUSANDS of light years away. The media is in a frenzy, the world view is altered for all humankind, and wars are now deemed unneccessary.

Fifteen minutes later Spencer Wells claims that these aliens are projected to be members of his own haplogroup... hg R1b.

Are you starting to see the pattern? If there's a subject matter that is more political, more egocentric, more illustrative of man's tendency to trumpet his ancestors success (real or imagined) over those of his neighbor's... well I want to see it.

So wade into your Paleolithic Basque hypothesis carefully, and bring your sense of humor. You're going to need it. If you don't trust my read on the y-DNA realm, please spend five minutes reviewing any Albanian thread you can find.

After we are all one shade of tawny brown in eight hundred or eight thousand years, this is the stuff we are going to be arguing about... if not waging battles over. Welcome to the future Pi gman! May the force be with you...
 
Pi gman, nice comment... I like the coffee shop scenerio.

BTW, my grandfather worked on planes that 'flew the hump' back in WWII. He wasn't USAF because of the timeline, but he was proto USAF anyway.
 
Pi gman, nice comment... I like the coffee shop scenerio.

BTW, my grandfather worked on planes that 'flew the hump' back in WWII. He wasn't USAF because of the timeline, but he was proto USAF anyway.

Thanks Nordic,
I am a Vietnam era veteran who trained for a year and got assigned to the 6942 Tuslog Det 94 in Karamursel, Turkey. I was USAF Security Service with Top Secret clearance need to know and all that. Our job was highly classified but 10 years after my enlistment was up everything I knew and did was de-classified. The short of it is we were intercepting Russian signals. My particular assignment was to intercept and record encrypted Soviet voice associated with MIRV mobile Russian nuclear ICBMs. We had to know where they were at all times.

I lived in a nearby village - Yalova, Turkey for three years and took trips that included the 7 churches of Asia Minor among others. Interesting that I have found out my haplo R1b1a L2+, Z49+ and Z142+ matches numerous samples of a population study of Phocaea and Smyrna (Izmir) Turkey. In history these were Greek city-states of Ionian Greeks. Wish I could go back for a visit! Could by my doppelgänger or cousins are there!

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocaea

Phocaea, or Phokaia, (Greek: Φώκαια) (modern-day Foça in Turkey) was an ancient Ionian Greek city on the western coast of Anatolia. Greek colonists from Phocaea founded the colony of Massalia[1] (modern day Marseille, in France) in 600 BC, Emporion (modern day Empúries, in Catalonia, Spain) in 575 BC and Elea (modern day Velia, in Campania, Italy) in 540 BC.

The ancient Greek geographer Pausanias says that Phocaea was founded by Phocians under Athenian leadership, on land given to them by the Aeolian Cymaeans, and that they were admitted into the Ionian League after accepting as kings the line of Codrus.[4] Pottery remains indicate Aeolian presence as late as the 9th century BC, and Ionian presence as early as the end of the 9th century BC. From this an approximate date of settlement for Phocaea can be inferred.[5]
According to Herodotus the Phocaeans were the first Greeks to make long sea-voyages, having discovered the coasts of the Adriatic, Tyrrhenia and Spain. Herodotus relates that they so impressed Arganthonios, king of Tartessus in Spain, that he invited them to settle there, and, when they declined, gave them a great sum of money to build a wall around their city.[6]
Their sea travel was extensive. To the south they probably conducted trade with the Greek colony of Naucratis in Egypt, which was the colony of their fellow Ionian city Miletus. To the north, they probably helped settle Amisos (Samsun) on the Black Sea, and Lampsacus at the north end of the Hellespont (now the Dardanelles). However Phocaea's major colonies were to the west. These included Alalia in Corsica, Emporiae and Rhoda in Spain, and especially Massalia (Marseille) in France.[5]
Phocaea remained independent until the reign of the Lydian king Croesus (circa 560–545 BC), when they, along with the rest of mainland Ionia, first, fell under Lydian control[7] and then, along with Lydia (who had allied itself with Sparta) were conquered by Cyrus the Great of Persia in 546 BC, in one of the opening skirmishes of the great Greco-Persian conflict.
Rather than submit to Persian rule, the Phocaeans abandoned their city. Some may have fled to Chios, others to their colonies on Corsica and elsewhere in the Mediterranean, with some eventually returning to Phocaea. Many however became the founders of Elea, around 540 BC.[8]

So we have Ionian Greeks entering Corsica, France and Spain.

Curtis Pigman (France - Pigmon/Pimond and Greece - Pygmon)
 
Interesting, I have inferred two out four of my great grandfathers to be R1b1a2 (one at about 98% certainty and the other about 85% certainty based on geographic location and ftdna surname results). I'm thinking one might even had Basque ties due to some autosomal readings that pull toward that area.

On a seperate note, did you ever make to Gobekli Tepe during your time in Turkey? I've started a past thread on Gobekli Tepe if you have... I'd like to hear about that area due to it's ancient archeological remains.
 
Interesting, I have inferred two out four of my great grandfathers to be R1b1a2 (one at about 98% certainty and the other about 85% certainty based on geographic location and ftdna surname results). I'm thinking one might even had Basque ties due to some autosomal readings that pull toward that area.

On a separate note, did you ever make to Gobekli Tepe during your time in Turkey? I've started a past thread on Gobekli Tepe if you have... I'd like to hear about that area due to it's ancient archeological remains.

I would love to see those ruins! Its beginnings are estimated to 11,000 BCE or earlier and considered by some to be the most important ruins in the world.

I didn't make it that far east in Turkey as my security clearance prohibited me from going to certain areas. Also my 2 tours of duty in Turkey from were from 1971 to 1974 and Gobekli Tepe excavation was not begun until 1991.

Is the thread you started on Gobekli Tepe stil active? I'll do a search and read it.

Curtis Pigman (France - Pigmon/Pimond and Greece - Pygmon)
 
I wrote today to someone of our co-bloggers that this thread was of good enough 'tenue' because i had not red the last posts - but it's true, I find some post here are very OUT OF SUBJECT
 
Yes, I think this is a kind of published private conversation. With nothing to do with basque thread...
 
My apologies, although I did get slightly back on track with my possible Basque autosomal results. I'll be more mindful in the future...

Question, if the Basque speakers had to be grouped with another language, would it be closer to Latin, German, or Celtic/Gaelic?
Which of these three tongues has the most in common with Basque?
 
My apologies as well. At least our off topic conversion is serving as a catalyst to en-vigor the conversion about how the Basques became R1b!

As far as I know nobody really know how long the Basques have been in the area of the Pyrenees mountains of France&Spain.

There is a map that shows R1b1a in the Levant forming around 17,000 Y.B.P. Possibly they made their way around Turkey via Gobekli Tepe (13,000 YBP) and into the Greek city states of Asia Minor (Phocaia, Smyrna, and Pergamon) and into Greece. These Ionian Greeks then founded the areas of Marseilles, Perpignan, and Corsica in 600 B.C.E as trading ports as well and established their trading ports in Catalonia, Spain (575 B.C.E) near the Pyrenees mountains.

Now that we have some more meat for the subject we should all share a bottle of red wine! Cheers!

Curtis Pigman (France - Pigmon/Pimond / Greece - Pygmon)
 
My apologies, although I did get slightly back on track with my possible Basque autosomal results. I'll be more mindful in the future...

Question, if the Basque speakers had to be grouped with another language, would it be closer to Latin, German, or Celtic/Gaelic?
Which of these three tongues has the most in common with Basque?

Here is an interesting answer from Yahoo Answers:

Traditionally, Basque was considered a linguistic isolate, meaning that it's not related to any other language spoken on Earth. Some linguists still regard it as a linguistic isolate.

However, there is a growing school of linguists who argue that every language is related to some other language in the world. Therefore, there are no languages which can truly be called "linguistic isolates."

In 1966, a famous Russian linguist, V. Illych-Svitych , announced the first evidence that Basque was distantly related to Chinese. He and his research team were overjoyed by the findings.

Since that time, some other linguists around the world have joined him in arguing that Basque is distantly related to Chinese and even some North American Indian language families like Uto-Aztecan and Athabaskan which includes the Navajo and Apache languages.

In the 1990's, an Italian scholar, G.M. Facchetti, found compelling evidence that Basque together with Etruscan was related to the North Caucasian group of languages spoken in the area where Russian, Turkey and Iran all come together. One linguist proposed a hypothetical language called "Proto-Daghestanian" spoken here which he says was the common ancestor of Basque, Etruscan and all the North Caucasian languages like Abkhazian, Chechen, Ingush, Circassian etc.

Cheers,
Curtis Pigman (France - Pigmon/Pimond / Greece - Pygmon)
 

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