Hun sample finds in Kazakstan

A number of people have concluded that the Huns spoke a Yeniseian language or even an Iranian language. A study of a Xiongnu graveyard found that nearly half the Y hgs were R and Q (the rest were C), suggesting they descended from a Okunevo or Karasuk people that had absorbed an Altaic population in Mongolia.

It's still impossible to know, but I think it's most likely Turkic. I have a ton of sources, but in the end you have to theorize. Some of the latter findings are what they think was Hunnic script that looks like Turkic.

C, R, and Q are anywhere on the steppe and NE Asia.
 
Wait wait wait, hold-up hod-up hud-up

The "Hunnic migrations" consisted of a large confederation of tribes, especially in the end, but the Huns themselves, "original Huns", were likely Altaic speaking, probably Turkic.

Read the link I provided. The first Huns to be ever mentioned are in the Avesta which predates the Hunnic appearance in European chronicles by thousands of years. They are called during that time Xioaonna. Even the Early Indo_Aryans knew them and called them Huna. Just as the term Turan which was basically a designation for East Iranics, it was later adopted for Turkic speakers.

The original, first Huns (White Huns) were East Iranic tribe. Later with time when food good sparse in Central Asia all the South_Central_East Asian tribes merged into a confederation under the Proto Huns. And the new Huns were born.

It doesn't matter what you or I think. The "sources" you mean are talking about the late state of Huns. As usual you don't interpret the things in the right way. If the Huns are mentioned in the Avesta as an East Iranic tribe thousand years before anything Turkic was even known. Those can't have been Turkic.
 
A number of people have concluded that the Huns spoke a Yeniseian language or even an Iranian language. A study of a Xiongnu graveyard found that nearly half the Y hgs were R and Q (the rest were C), suggesting they descended from a Okunevo(America Indian)or Karasuk people that had absorbed an Altaic population in Mongolia.

Hunnic culture was closely related with Q1a2 culture which was connected to shang/ zhou in china.

-20 graves of senior Asian Hun (also called by the Chinese name ’Xiongnu’), dating from the Third Century B.C.,

Read more:
http://www.kaogu.cn/en/Special_Events/dierjieshanghailuntan/2015/1222/52514.html

2012_12_13.jpg[COLOR=


- shang dynasty tomb in china
shang%20tomb.jpg[COLOR=


- zhou dynasty tomb in china
%20r1.jpg[COLOR=


-
Olmec Chalcatzingo stone carving relic
%20s_3.jpg[COLOR=


“Ya” Shape

The “ya” symbol represents the center of the universe; Two stone carvings are found in an important ruin, Chalcatzingo, of the Olmec culture in Mexico. The stone carvings depict zoomorphic figures with a mouth wide open representing the door between the worlds of the living and the dead. The opening of the mouth divides the boundaries between heaven and earth while the four corners facing inward allow space for four respective trees. The ya shape represents a cosmic diagram for the Olmec people with a big mouth and boundaries of heaven and earth in the four corners. Moreover, the trees assist in traversing between heaven and earth known as the four "cosmic trees”. This picture, the earth is square, but at each corner there are four trees, resulting in an inverted corner and creating a “ya” shape. In looking back at the “ya” shape, it raises a question: Did the “ya” shape from the Shang dynasty also form this way? Regarding Zong Miao Ming Tang that contains four cosmic trees, either “ruo tree”, “jian mu”, or “fusang”, were there indents because of these trees? In other words, is it because the Zong Miao Ming Tang had four trees, which resulted in the “ya” shape?




Note: KC Chang, Qingtong Huichen

- Archaeologists believe that this tomb was built to bury aristocrats from the state of Qi.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ancient-board-game-found-in-looted-china-tomb1/


==> this tradition in nomad still in 557 to 581 AD
princess-large-tomb.jpg


Tomb of a nomadic tribal princess will help unravel China’s complicated ethnic history
Ancient Origins by Mark Millar 19 December 2015
Chinese archaeologists have excavated the sixth century tomb of a nomadic tribal princess of the ancient Tuyuhun Kingdom in northwest China’s Shaanxi Province. In the tomb they found two skeletons and 166 grave artifacts, including bronze ware, warrior and animal statues and inscriptions



 
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they state a elite hun

the type of burial and his outfit showed that this young man belonged to the Hun elite and may have been related by the origin to the ancient Turkic tribes of Kazakhstan. DNA analysis of an ancient Hun of the skeleton determined the haplogroup L of Y-chromosome and mtDNA D4j12, which is evidence of the Asian origin of the paternal and maternal lines of this ancient find from Europe

so his father was also Hg L and also elite family
 
study of a Xiongnu graveyard found that nearly half the Y hgs were R and Q (the rest were C)

Three main Xiongnu Y hgs were C, Q and N. R was small minority.

Here are ancient DNA samples of Xiongnu/Hunnu haplogroups:

Places of origin of samples (four graveyards, not just one):

1) Egin Gol river valley cemetery in Mongolia
2) Duurling Nars cemetery in Mongolia
3) Barköl cemetery in Xinjiang, China
4) Birlik cemetery in Kazakhstan


Paternal lineages:

East Asian Y-DNA haplogroups (ca. 82%):

Haplo C2e - 3
Haplo C2 - 7
Haplo C - 1
Haplo Q1a2 - 3
Haplo Q1a3a - 3
Haplo Q1b - 1
Haplo N1c-Tat - 3
Haplo O3a2 - 1

West Eurasian Y-DNA haplogroups (ca. 18%):

Haplo R1a - 3
Haplo R1b - 1
Haplo I2c - 1

Maternal lineages:

East Asian mtDNA haplogroups (ca. 83%):

Haplo D4 - 19
Haplo D4o1 - 9
Haplo D5a - 1
Haplo D5 - 1
Haplo C - 4
Haplo C4a1 - 1
Haplo C5 - 1
Haplo F1b - 4
Haplo G2a - 1
Haplo G2 - 1
Haplo B4 - 1

Uncertain origin mtDNA haplogroups (ca. 3%):

Haplo M - 2

West Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups (ca. 14%):

Haplo U5a1a - 2
Haplo U2e1 - 1
Haplo U2 - 1
Haplo J1 - 2
Haplo H - 1
 
Three main Xiongnu Y hgs were C, Q and N. R was small minority.

Here are ancient DNA samples of Xiongnu/Hunnu haplogroups:

Places of origin of samples (four graveyards, not just one):

1) Egin Gol river valley cemetery in Mongolia
2) Duurling Nars cemetery in Mongolia
3) Barköl cemetery in Xinjiang, China
4) Birlik cemetery in Kazakhstan


Paternal lineages:

East Asian Y-DNA haplogroups (ca. 82%):

Haplo C2e - 3
Haplo C2 - 7
Haplo C - 1
Haplo Q1a2 - 3
Haplo Q1a3a - 3

Haplo Q1b - 1
Haplo N1c-Tat - 3
Haplo O3a2 - 1

West Eurasian Y-DNA haplogroups (ca. 18%):

Haplo R1a - 3
Haplo R1b - 1
Haplo I2c - 1

again, R1a, Q1a2 and C series in Alati since neolithic

Individuals from Lokomotiv and Shamanka II were found to possess haplogroups K, R1a1 and C3, and individuals from Ust’-Ida and Kurma XI were found to belong to haplogroups Q, K and unidentified SNP (L914). For those individuals belonging to haplogroup Q, further experimentation to examine sub-haplogroups of Q revealed that these individuals belong to sub-haplogroup Q1a3

Hollard et al., Strong genetic admixture in the Altai at the Middle Bronze Age.
In the same way, the patrilineal gene pool revealed the presence of different haplogroups (Q1a2a1-L54, R1a1a1b2-Z93 and C)
 
they state a elite hun

the type of burial and his outfit showed that this young man belonged to the Hun elite and may have been related by the origin to the ancient Turkic tribes of Kazakhstan. DNA analysis of an ancient Hun of the skeleton determined the haplogroup L of Y-chromosome and mtDNA D4j12, which is evidence of the Asian origin of the paternal and maternal lines of this ancient find from Europe

so his father was also Hg L and also elite family

Thats because the Elite/Proto Huns were East Iranic as I wrote above. No wonder you find West_South_Central Asian yDNA among them.

Even the Turkic tribe they are talking about (Argyn) are known to be of mixed origin.
The Argyn (Kazakh: Арғын) clan is a constituent of the Kazakh ethnicity. The present-day Argyns of Kazakhstan are generally regarded as descended from a nomadic people known as the Basmyl and both names are said to mean "mixed tribe".
Also take in mind two Hun period samples turned out J2a some years ago.
 
Xionites, Chionites, or Chionitae (Middle Persian: Xiyon; Avestan: Xiiaona; Sogdian: Xwn; Pahlavi: Huna), or Hunni, Yun or Xūn (獯), were an Iranian-speaking people[1] who were prominent in Transoxania and Bactria.

The Xionites (Chionitae) are first mentioned with Kushans (Cuseni) by Ammianus Marcellinus who spent the winter of 356-57 CE in their Balkh territory. They arrived with the wave of immigration from Central Asia into Iran in late antiquity. They were influenced by the Kushan and Bactrian cultures, while patronizing the Eastern Iranian languages, and became a threat on the northeastern frontier of the Sassanid Empire.[1][2]

In 1944 Carlile Aylmer Macartney wrote:[5]
We must consider briefly a third nation playing a role in our sources: the Kermichiones. Who were these people? They cannot have been the Turks-Toue-Kioue, since their embassy reached Constantinople while the Avars were still negotiating with Rome for settlement inside the frontier-probably, therefore, as early as AD 558, whereas the true Turks appeared there first in 568; further, their ruler's name was `Aσκήλτ or Scultor, while the Khagan of the Turks at that time was Silzabul, Dizabul, or Istämi. Neither can they have been the Juan Juan, as Marquart suggests; nor the Epthalites, who were well known to the Byzantines and would not have been described in this way. Moreover, the Epthalites were known as White Huns, and Mr. Bailey has pointed out that the word Karmir xyon, meaning Red Chyon, occurs in a Pahlavi text in juxtaposition with SpEt xyon, White Chyon. The name Chyon, originally that of some other race, was "transferred later to the Huns owing to the similarity of sound". The nation can hardly be other than that which appears in the 4th century, under the name of Chionits, in the steppes on the north-west frontier of Persia. These Chionites were probably a branch of the Huns, the other branch of which afterwards appeared in Europe, the latter appear to have attacked and conquered by the Alans, then living between the Urals and the Volga about AD 360, while the first mention of the Chionites is dated AD 356. In the 5th century the name is replaced by that of the Kushan or of the Kidarite Huns, who are clearly identical with the Kushan.

A more recent specialist, Richard Nelson Frye[6] wrote in 1991:
Just as later nomadic empires were confederations of many peoples, we may tentatively propose that the ruling groups of these invaders were, or at least included, Turkic-speaking tribesmen from the east and north, although most probably the bulk of the people in the confederation of Chionites and then Hephtalites spoke an Iranian language (...) This was the last time in the history of Central Asia that Iranian-speaking nomads played any role; hereafter all nomads would speak Turkic languages.



As written above. the Proto_Huns were an East Iranic people. With time passing the Huns turned into a confederation of Iranic-Turkic-Mongol elements with the final result that Turkic language took the overhand in Central Asia. The Huns themselves are described to have clothed and lived just like the Scythians.

Early Hun Period => Iranic
Later Hun Period => mixed confederation
 
Ah man. I don't want to do this argument again. Why did I bother. I studied this subject so much it made me sick of Huns for years.
 
I could certainly go to the shelf, grab my pile of papers and begin listing strange things like the names of every Hunnic leader in recorded history with language of origin.
 
Three main Xiongnu Y hgs were C, Q and N. R was small minority.

Here are ancient DNA samples of Xiongnu/Hunnu haplogroups:

Places of origin of samples (four graveyards, not just one):

1) Egin Gol river valley cemetery in Mongolia
2) Duurling Nars cemetery in Mongolia
3) Barköl cemetery in Xinjiang, China
4) Birlik cemetery in Kazakhstan


Paternal lineages:

East Asian Y-DNA haplogroups (ca. 82%):

Haplo C2e - 3
Haplo C2 - 7
Haplo C - 1
Haplo Q1a2 - 3
Haplo Q1a3a - 3
Haplo Q1b - 1
Haplo N1c-Tat - 3
Haplo O3a2 - 1

West Eurasian Y-DNA haplogroups (ca. 18%):

Haplo R1a - 3
Haplo R1b - 1
Haplo I2c - 1

Maternal lineages:

East Asian mtDNA haplogroups (ca. 83%):

Haplo D4 - 19
Haplo D4o1 - 9
Haplo D5a - 1
Haplo D5 - 1
Haplo C - 4
Haplo C4a1 - 1
Haplo C5 - 1
Haplo F1b - 4
Haplo G2a - 1
Haplo G2 - 1
Haplo B4 - 1

Uncertain origin mtDNA haplogroups (ca. 3%):

Haplo M - 2

West Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups (ca. 14%):

Haplo U5a1a - 2
Haplo U2e1 - 1
Haplo U2 - 1
Haplo J1 - 2
Haplo H - 1

Thanks for providing the statistics. If the Xiongnu were immigrants from Siberia, we would expect them to ancestrally to have been a mixture of West Eurasian Y haplogroups (R1a, R1b, I2) and native Siberian Y haplogroups (Q). Grouping these haplogroups together we have 12 out of 26 (46%) of the Xiongnu samples in the “Siberian” group. They could be descendants of either the Okunevo or Karasuk cultures and we would expect them to speak a Tocharian-like language, Iranian, or Yeniseian. The latter two have published support with Yeniseian having more backers. When the Siberians migrated to Mongolia they would have met agriculturalists from Northern China with haplogroups C and N1c. They would likely have been conquered and absorbed by the Siberians with a superior Indo-European derived technological package. The Xiongnu were eventually routed by China and Altaic speaking groups (Turks, Para-Mongols) richer in haplogroup C became dominant. At least that’s the story which seems most likely at the moment.
 
Scythian had elongated skull also, which meant “sun” in shamanism.
As far as I know, hairstyle was not a fashion, but a tradition to nomad people. So the original descendants kept their tradition, I think.
Think about the hairstyle of Magyar who shaved their heads except three long braids. This tradition has been kept until 19 century in East Europe.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=dvV...20long&f=false

Moreover, I think polish Sarmatianism from 16c to 18c was also the same case.

Traditional Slavic Hair Styles:
525_obr.jpg


Maybe Yazidi man with plaited hair. Northern Iraq(I am not sure):
abc.jpg


same hair style in american indian:
http://imageenvision.com/photo/7058-mandan-native-american-man-with-braids-spotted-bull-by-jvpd

So you confirm what I wrote! Pops adopted "traditions" of other pops without true ethnical links with them!
 
So you confirm what I wrote! Pops adopted "traditions" of other pops without true ethnical links with them!
Do you really think that the above people adopted the tradition of just the other people as a fashion like now? If you think so, there is nothing I can do say.
 
Could it be that the Huns are the descendants of the root of the Kura Araxes culture(linked with Ubaid and Sumerian cultures), which is associated with the Areni-1 findings?
Could it be that the origin of Y-haplogroup L and T are in the oldest Kura Araxes culture people, and that the Huns are descendants of these oldest Kura Araxes culture people? These Kura Araxes culture people spoke a Proto Turk language, and tribes associated with them are described in the Sumerian tablets like "Turukku"(Turukkaeans) and "Subar", their basis was in the Urmia River region.


Please have a look at the paper of study "Areni-1 Cave, Armenia: A Chalcolithic–Early Bronze Age settlement and ritual site in the southern Caucasus", "Keith Wilkinson":


"The 14C date on the charcoal from the clay ball associated with Burial 1 suggests that the ritual during which the skulls were plastered into the vessels took place around 3970–3800 CAL B.C. (TABLE 1)."


"The results of excavations undertaken at Areni-1 Cave extend the date for the first appearance of Kura-Araxes-type artifact assemblages to 4100–3800 CAL B.C., several hundred years before the previously accepted earliest date (Kushnareva 1997: 49; Kiguradze and Sagona 2003: 38–94; Kohl 2007: 86–104). "
"
 
Could it be that the Huns are the descendants of the root of the Kura Araxes culture(linked with Ubaid and Sumerian cultures), which is associated with the Areni-1 findings?
Could it be that the origin of Y-haplogroup L and T are in the oldest Kura Araxes culture people, and that the Huns are descendants of these oldest Kura Araxes culture people? These Kura Araxes culture people spoke a Proto Turk language, and tribes associated with them are described in the Sumerian tablets like "Turukku"(Turukkaeans) and "Subar", their basis was in the Urmia River region.



"

Maybe.................we have the following

Haplogroup LT
Time of origin:​
+ 30 kya
Place of origin:​
Sind Valley
Descendants:​
LT


and then this from the project teams

the most recent common ancestor of T1 and T2 was a single individual and he might have lived in Azerbaijan, or Bhutan, or somewhere in between, or somewhere a bit further south or west, but I doubt if he or his sons and grandsons travelled very far from the region where they were born. As far as we can tell, after 10000 years only 3 of their descendant lines had survived (two from T1 and one from T2).

T2 is the new T y-group found about a year ago from Bhutan IIRC
 
Could it be that the Huns are the descendants of the root of the Kura Araxes culture(linked with Ubaid and Sumerian cultures), which is associated with the Areni-1 findings?
Could it be that the origin of Y-haplogroup L and T are in the oldest Kura Araxes culture people, and that the Huns are descendants of these oldest Kura Araxes culture people? These Kura Araxes culture people spoke a Proto Turk language, and tribes associated with them are described in the Sumerian tablets like "Turukku"(Turukkaeans) and "Subar", their basis was in the Urmia River region.


Please have a look at the paper of study "Areni-1 Cave, Armenia: A Chalcolithic–Early Bronze Age settlement and ritual site in the southern Caucasus", "Keith Wilkinson":


"The 14C date on the charcoal from the clay ball associated with Burial 1 suggests that the ritual during which the skulls were plastered into the vessels took place around 3970–3800 CAL B.C. (TABLE 1)."


"The results of excavations undertaken at Areni-1 Cave extend the date for the first appearance of Kura-Araxes-type artifact assemblages to 4100–3800 CAL B.C., several hundred years before the previously accepted earliest date (Kushnareva 1997: 49; Kiguradze and Sagona 2003: 38–94; Kohl 2007: 86–104). "
"

1. sumerian had elongated head, but jericho people plastered skull. However, suemrian's custom of the elongated skull and their armenoid nose was closely related with armenian, as far as I know.
jericho-plaster-skulls.jpg


2. btw, Did Kura Araxes culture people speak in proto-turk language, connecting to sumerian?
 
Could it be that the Huns are the descendants of the root of the Kura Araxes culture(linked with Ubaid and Sumerian cultures), which is associated with the Areni-1 findings?
Could it be that the origin of Y-haplogroup L and T are in the oldest Kura Araxes culture people, and that the Huns are descendants of these oldest Kura Araxes culture people? These Kura Araxes culture people spoke a Proto Turk language, and tribes associated with them are described in the Sumerian tablets like "Turukku"(Turukkaeans) and "Subar", their basis was in the Urmia River region.


Please have a look at the paper of study "Areni-1 Cave, Armenia: A Chalcolithic–Early Bronze Age settlement and ritual site in the southern Caucasus", "Keith Wilkinson":


"The 14C date on the charcoal from the clay ball associated with Burial 1 suggests that the ritual during which the skulls were plastered into the vessels took place around 3970–3800 CAL B.C. (TABLE 1)."


"The results of excavations undertaken at Areni-1 Cave extend the date for the first appearance of Kura-Araxes-type artifact assemblages to 4100–3800 CAL B.C., several hundred years before the previously accepted earliest date (Kushnareva 1997: 49; Kiguradze and Sagona 2003: 38–94; Kohl 2007: 86–104). "
"
Don't think so. If that is the case than Chinese (Cantonese & Madarin) is also from the Caucasus.

Turkic is a 'Mongoloid' language and related to Chisese languages. Original Turks were 'Mongoloid' people / race from Altai/Baikal area/region.


So Turkic language, like Chinese, is originally from the EASTERN Eurasia..
 
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1. sumerian had elongated head, but jericho people plastered skull. However, suemrian's custom of the elongated skull and their armenoid nose was closely related with armenian, as far as I know.
Sumerians were 'Iranid' (ARYAN) and NOT 'Armenoid'.
 

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