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I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

Miroslav said:
No, really - just stop going off-topic. You do not discuss the topic of the discussion. I proposed you a specific hypothesis which included both Thracian and Slavic theories, but all of you went astray. You can not keep the discussion focused even for one single page. The use of the term Vlachs for Greek Orthodox people is a totally different topic, it has nothing to do with the origin of I2a-Din haplogroup, and trying to answer it is just opening a pandora's box. Actually, I am more than sure that your question was intentionally provocative considering the controversy and debate about the use of the term Vlachs and so on, yet you're the one who said: "let's try to avoid this kind of provocative discussions". C'mon, your intention is transparent... Can we stay on topic, please?
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But there is the theory that consider Vlachs as Thracians, you know this? If we include in the discussion the Resava school, maybe we can conclude something.
 
Miroslav said:
Do a better research on Goths and Sarmatians, and think once again for considering them as carriers of I-CTS10228. Along the Turkic theory, proposed by our Albanians friends in related threads, it is a nonsense not worth commenting for anyone who knows anything about the Gothic or Sarmatian origin, culture, even Y-DNA results. Many comments by other editors show a real lack of understanding of the topic they are discussing. You should read many scientific articles or books to not make mistaken assumptions.

You, Garrick, should focus on Thracian&Illyrian theory, with consideration that it was some kind of stratum widespread in Eastern Europe (like your map before; or basal diversity pointed out by MarkoZ) which at one point became more narrowed, and on which followed up Slavic adstratum (whose previously posted maps in this or related threads are very similar to the Thracian map), and since both were mostly of Indo-European origin, it could explain the so-called Eastern European autosomal tendency (more-or-less, South Slavs are autosomally homogenous between themselves, but autosomally are still very heterogeneous). With such complex and dual hypothesis, and in reality the ethnogenesis of population is built that way and usually is not one-sided (pure Illyrian, Slavic, Germanic etc.), could be explained and implemented the I-CTS10228's and its subclades formation age and TMRCA with historical migrations and complex social events of identity assimilation and so on. Maybe you and we find some clue or not, or simply will arouse other questions and issues which will not make it a possible hypothesis and should try to find another one. I think the Thracian&Slavic combination has some potential for a good start, was it even a mere discussion.
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Yes, it is very good path, but it requires a lot of efforts.

Problem is complex. Older clades were practically only in Western Europe and now we have I-CTS10228 which emerged from nowhere. If it is accurate calculated it is formed 5300 years before. TMRCA according Klyosov and Nordvedt is 2300 years. We have 3000 years of "dark", haplogroup barely survived, we can speak about bottleneck.

But you're right for determining TMRCA. According calculating by other methods and with more data TMRCA is over 3000ybp, what is not little difference (700 years).

Carrier of I-CTS10228 after bottleneck emerged probably somewhere in Eastern Europe today's Slovakia/South of Poland/Ukraine/Romania/Hungary etc. we can speculate.

If we see who lived in that territory there were German, Thracian and Sarmatian (more eastern) tribes. These tribes lived next to each other, and mixed, even build common culture. We can analyze these tribes, even cultures, but in these times we cannot speak about Slavs. Even Zarubintsy culture we cannot treat as Slavic, and later Chernyakov culture, etc.

Tecnically speaking I-CTS10228 really can be emerged after bottleneck in any German tribe, but after that he began spreading through Thracians or (mixed Tracians/Germans), toward the South, and through Sarmatians and other populations toward the Eastern and Northern areas where could live Proto Slavs and Balts.

For us it is most interesting Southern direction. According period since 400 years (or more if TMCRA is higher than 2300 ybp) I-CTS10228 bearers reached Balkans most probably in 1st century. It is very important detail, about 5 centuries before Slavic expansion to the Balkans. Theoreticaly younger clade I-PH908 could emerged somewhere in Illyricum and it is Illyrian marker.

In the South (Balkans) I-CTS10228 was Thracian and Illyrian some time. It was enough time for spreading this haplogroup on the Balkans before Slavs. Especially because these areas were quite depopulated due to constant wars between Romans and barbarians.
 
Thanks again for Slavic people acknowledging facts in this forum. Thracians originated Northeastern Balkans not Albania. Not worried about single sample of E1B1B1 was found as Thracian remains. Thracian remains could have E1B1B1 it makes sense Thracians was expanding and is documented women was expanding also. The truth is there still genetic pool of I2A in NORTHEAST Balkan that no Albanian explain only response "dont make much of modern diverse gene pool in Ukraine". That is your argument. Lol. Everything else off-topic rambling about nothing. We know Thracians as nomads who conquer large territory of Eurasian-Steppe and Balkans so if remains of I2A was found in luxembourg licstenstein it possible as they travel nomadically and conquer. J2 people is not indo-europeans, they farmers. I mean Albanians showing 10% R1A and 20% I2A. Slavic markers 30%. But they are NOT Slavs. How did some Albanians get there 190cm+ height? Not from J2. Not E1B1B1. Not R1B. Small % even Albanian have blonde hair. These physical characteristic need be account for, not wiki articles and gedmatch map propaganda. I myself over years have been mistaken by Albanian and non-Albanian if Im Albanian? I quickly correct them I am Slav. Why be Crypto-Slav? Why ashamed of minor mixing with goths or bastarnae 2300-5000 years ago? Them goldilocks come from somewhere. I am Pole and Ukrainian trust me, i am last who wants admit submission to german mixing. Critical thinking isnt for everyone though.
 
Albanian 10% R1A and 20% I2A. 30% Slav markers. But they NOT Slav.
 
Fatherland said:
You are wrong, read what I wrote.

I already explained to you. Ghegs are NW-shifted from Tosks. Shifting is more relevant as it shows proportions.
This includes all Ghegs from Kosovo and elsewhere.

Again, pigmentation has zero relevance so your entire point is refuted.

Croats, Slovenes, Bosnians and many Montenegrins are the most northeast shifted out of all South Slavs.

I'll show you the k15 plotting map when I get back at home.

Typing from phone.
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Actually based on Eupedia's map on ANE admixture, Albania has more than Montenegro. As for the Eastern European admixture, Montenegro has the same levels as Kosovo.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/autosomal_maps_dodecad.shtml

I tried to find another admixture thread (I believe made by Tomenable) but I wasn't able. If someone knows what I'm talking about, please share.

Are you saying that Montenegrins are more North East shifted than Serbians?
 
What you mean good assumption?
 
@Fatherland

And what does the higher Atlanto-Med means? Anything to do with Normans? Because the name 'Albanian' refers to Normans in some sources.
 
Nik said:
Actually based on Eupedia's map on ANE admixture, Albania has more than Montenegro. As for the Eastern European admixture, Montenegro has the same levels as Kosovo.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/autosomal_maps_dodecad.shtml

I tried to find another admixture thread (I believe made by Tomenable) but I wasn't able. If someone knows what I'm talking about, please share.

Are you saying that Montenegrins are more North East shifted than Serbians?
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Alot of those Eupedia maps based on Dodecad, Eurogenes and so on need some updating.

The "East Euro" in the link you posted is based off 23andme results and they only go back 300 years, it only shows external admixture from Eastern Europe heatpoints in the last 300 years.


ANE doesn't directly imply North Eastern admixture, look where it peaks in the map. Not all Eupedia admixture maps are correct in terms of frequency. Montenegrins have alot of North Eastern admixture while in contrast, Albanians preserved Atlanto-Med admixture.


Check this post for a moment:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...lyrians/page18?p=512134&viewfull=1#post512134




and this: Ghegs(marked in red) and Tosks(marked in purple) plotting based on Gheg and Tosk Eurogenes K15 results.
Montenegrins are often closer to Bosniaks and Croats than they are to Serbs admixturewise.
Southern Serbs are the closest to Albanians autosomally, especially those around Kosovo. Serbs from north, Bosnia etc are similar to Croats(and Bosnians) admixturewise.

jWnq9b9.png






Take a look at Eupedia maps.

Mine from Eurogenes K15:
leYtLh2.png


Seen many other Albanians get above 20% which is TWO steps above than what the map below shows:

It only shows 10-15% Atlantic in Albanians which is nonsense, while a strong number have way above that.

Atlantic-admixture.png
 
I near 20% as well.
03718b185e.png
 
Ok, noted. Perhaps they are indeed old and need updating.

What about Tomenables maps? Anyone knows what I'm talking about? I saw them a month back and they were all very informative. If I'm not mistaken he collaborated with other Albanians (perhaps Trojet is among them) to get the results and apply them.

In those maps the difference between Albania and Montenegro was minimal as it's to be expected the more North you go.

Just in case, I'm not refuting any of your claims, I just can't come to a conclusion without hard evidence yet. Although I'm 100% sure that Eastern European mix doesn't mean Slavic admixture. If you believe that Bronze Age North-Western Balkanites (Dacians for instance) had minimal to 0 Eastern European admixture then we'd need tests to prove that.

That is the reason I tend to connect genetics with anthropology and history when we lack evidence. My point about the Northern Montenegrin clansmen is that if Slavs are more fair than indigenous Balkanites, then why would a Slav mixed with indigenous Balkanites end up darker? It's common sense right?

Then again, why its specifically the South Slavs the group with a lot of giants and not the rest? To me that points out a local extreme tallness.

To conclude with, I'm not saying that these are the reasons why I believe I2a-Din is not Slavic, but if I have to give it a number I'd say these make up maybe 20-30% of the reasons. I know more hard evidence is needed.
 
A. Papadimitriou said:
@Fatherland

And what does the higher Atlanto-Med means? Anything to do with Normans? Because the name 'Albanian' refers to Normans in some sources.
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nahh

I believe it is mark left from Roman Army,
some legions from Atlantic populations stayed as legions there, making it a peak,
 
Yetos said:
nahh

I believe it is mark left from Roman Army,
some legions from Atlantic populations stayed as legions there, making it a peak,
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Wrong.
It's most likely native to the area, Ghegs were not Romanized and I don't see any Roman y-dna there, so it's Ancient.
Ghegnian highlands was a refugium for these Ancient populations.

People are giving little credit to the Gheg Highlands which compose of rougher mountains and valleys than the rest of the Dinaric Mountainchain.
There's a place there called "Accursed Mountains" where no Slavs set foot, where many Albanian tribes dwelled.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prokletije

So let's not make hasty assumptions.
 
Fatherland said:
Wrong.
It's most likely native to the area, Ghegs were not Romanized and I don't see any Roman y-dna there, so it's Ancient.
Ghegnian highlands was a refugium for these Ancient populations.

People are giving little credit to the Gheg Highlands which compose of rougher mountains and valleys than the rest of the Dinaric Mountainchain.
There's a place there called "Accursed Mountains" where no Slavs set foot, where many Albanian tribes dwelled.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prokletije

So let's not make hasty assumptions.
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I agree with your last word,

but if it was ancient, then it should follow the expand of other DNA Hgs,
but does it?
NO,
so surely has nothing to do with antique, and ancient world,
rather with medieval or modern times,

the diaspora (scattered peaks) is not same with other Hgs,
so something else is happening, and surely is not the explanation you give I believe,

maybe a Roman army,
maybe crusaders settle there,
maybe Normands and Anjou

who knows,
maybe you know better,
but surely is not ancient
 
Yetos said:
I agree with your last word,

but if it was ancient, then it should follow the expand of other DNA Hgs,
but does it?
NO,
so surely has nothing to do with antique, and ancient world,
rather with medieval or modern times,

the diaspora (scattered peaks) is not same with other Hgs,
so something else is happening, and surely is not the explanation you give I believe,

maybe a Roman army,
maybe crusaders settle there,
maybe Normands and Anjou

who knows,
maybe you know better,
but surely is not ancient
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Wrong again.

It is Ancient preserved Atlanto-Med admixture, it peaks in Ghegs across Eastern Europe.

It is no transplant or anything like you are trying to make it just because many Greeks have higher Near-Eastern and West-Asian admixture than Albanians do, which lowers your Atlanto-Med.

You have a clear agenda to reduce Albanian significance of the Classic times, I put you in my ignore list.
 
Milan.M said:
So my comments were removed because I spoke about Getae,Thracians,just as the thread is saying but same moderator allowed Albanian ethnogenesis to be disussed.Not only but what we see is group of Albanians on I2a din thread,trying to "proof" is Huno Avqr,Slav,whatever only Albanian DNA is old and in Balkans since dinosaurs.
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You seem to be projecting here. Let's get a few things sorted here.

My haplogroup, J2b2-L283 has been found in Bronze Age Dalmatia (1800 B.C), your I2a-Slav hasn't been found anywhere in the ancient Balkans.

These are facts. You have however, not proven otherwise, and that is simply because you can't.
 
Sile said:
I think the Bastanae could be one of the sources.............moving from south Ukraine to moesia/macedonia ~300BC ..............100000 with women and children is a major number in those days
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Yes, Bastarnae can be appropriate candidate.

They were German tribe with Samartian influences, someone calls larger area in that time Germano-Samartia. Southern parts of tribes were with Thracian elements. Although there are opinions that Bastarnae could be Celtic.

im_393.jpg


We can see they were from river Vistula and Subcarpathian (Podkarpackie) area in Polland through the territory present-day Ukraine and Romania until north to Danube Delta. They were mixed with Thracian Getae and they were allies. And they came to the Balkans in Thracian land several times. According to historical data and areas where I-CTS10228 emerged after bottleneck Bastarnae can be tribe with the carriers of this haplogroup.
 
Fustan said:
The Eupedia administration has been doing an excellent job, just because most people don't agree with your absurd agenda (seriously, no one outside of Eupedia takes anything you say seriously, not even the Serbian DNA Project), doesn't mean people are after you.
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Agreed with this 100%.
 
Kingslav said:
I may be freshman on here, but not genetics. Why you choose to never defend your point but instead throw shade and weak disses. Probably because you know you are wrong and cant defend your theory with solid facts. I have NEVER seen true Mediterranean that isnt SLAV who is TALL. You Illyrian Meditids barely tall as my knee. Or should I say "PAPA ITALIANO". I am taking out entire Illyrian army on here 1 by 1. You want to be warrior but first has to be in your bloodline. #THRACIAN #SARMATIAN. This one for NIK.
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Excuse me but i honestly don't understand what are you talking. You are a slav and your ancestors arrived in Balkans around 1.500 years ago. This is common knowledge. You don't know this?
 
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