I2a1b2a1 (I-CTS10228) - a strong marker of Slavic expansion

balkanbro said:
Is it safe to say that S17250 is white croats?
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Only people in the Balkans whom genetics confirms historical record of migration to Balkans are Croats.

When they establish source of Croatian R1a subclades then we will know exactly.
 
I dont know why there is even much of a debate about slavic ancestry in the balkans. Its clear even from commercial autosomal tests that croatians and bosnians are coming back as literally half slavic if not more for some people when ukrainians and poles are used as proxy for slavic ancestry. Serbs on gedmatch can be modeled as being 50% ukrainian and 50% greek. When people used to speak about genetics and only bring up y haplogroups suddenly back then everyone started claiming south slavs arent genetically slavic. We are now realizing this is b.s. Maybe they arent as slavic as many northern slavs but their slavic ancestry is significant, as mentioned more than half for croatians and bosnians.
 
srdceleva said:
I dont know why there is even much of a debate about slavic ancestry in the balkans. Its clear even from commercial autosomal tests that croatians and bosnians are coming back as literally half slavic if not more for some people when ukrainians and poles are used as proxy for slavic ancestry. Serbs on gedmatch can be modeled as being 50% ukrainian and 50% greek. When people used to speak about genetics and only bring up y haplogroups suddenly back then everyone started claiming south slavs arent genetically slavic. We are now realizing this is b.s. Maybe they arent as slavic as many northern slavs but their slavic ancestry is significant, as mentioned more than half for croatians and bosnians.
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How do you mean half Slavic? Today's Slovenes mostly have pre-Turkish Y genetics, probably with German (Austrian) R1b influence.

Therefore[FONT=&quot] [/FONT] that there was no migration from east Balkan ( Turkish period) to Croatia the main haplotypes of Croatians would have been R1a and I2a ie. genetics that were brought from White Croatia or Carpatians to Balkans.
 
hrvat22 said:
How do you mean half Slavic? Today's Slovenes mostly have pre-Turkish Y genetics, probably with German (Austrian) R1b influence.

Therefore[FONT=&quot] [/FONT] that there was no migration from east Balkan ( Turkish period) to Croatia the main haplotypes of Croatians would have been R1a and I2a ie. genetics that were brought from White Croatia or Carpatians to Balkans.
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Non-Slavic ancestry in South Slavs mostly came with females. It won't show up in the Y-DNA.
 
markod said:
Non-Slavic ancestry in South Slavs mostly came with females. It won't show up in the Y-DNA.
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I really don't buy it, lot of I2a was redistributed by the Vlachs into the South-Slav population,with further Paleo-Balkan dilution of the gene poll, a"Re-Slavization", and ,in the same time,further genetic drift,explaining the small amount of R1a.


Read Yugoslav papers,about the gradual disappearance (until 16th-17th c.) of the Vlachs( and Vlach military class) from the Serbian state.
 
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Dreptul Valah said:
I really don't buy it, lot of I2a was redistributed by the Vlachs into the South-Slav population,with further Paleo-Balkan dilution of the gene poll, a"Re-Slavization", and ,in the same time,further genetic drift,explaining the small amount of R1a.


Read Yugoslav papers,about the gradual disappearance (until 16th-17th c.) of the Vlachs( and Vlach military class) from the Serbian state.
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I2a exist and in the Vlachs but I2a branches originally coming to Balkans with Croats and other Slavs.
If Slavs are asimilated into Vlachs(Macedonia, Bulgaria, Greece etc) they probably married Balkan women but we first need to see MtDNA as evidence for all Slavic groups in the Balkans.
 
hrvat22 said:
I2a exist and in the Vlachs but I2a branches originally coming to Balkans with Croats and other Slavs.
If Slavs are asimilated into Vlachs(Macedonia, Bulgaria, Greece etc) they probably married Balkan women but we first need to see MtDNA as evidence for all Slavic groups in the Balkans.
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What if,Slavs/I2a were ultimately*assimilated into the Byzantine army and Constantinople nobility too?


I mean ,Constantinople is in/near the Balkans,maybe it had more I2a in the past,like today's Greece,with the Anatolization taking place with Turks(native Anatolian Greek acolytes).


EDIT

*
I have edited my post,added "ultimately".
 
Dreptul Valah said:
What if,Slavs/I2a were assimilated into the Byzantine army and Constantinople nobility too?
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Possible, but they are still coming from direction of Carpatians to the Balkans. When we find out which younger I2a, R1a subbranches are exist in the Balkans then we will know more.

I mean ,Constantinople is in/near the Balkans,maybe it had more I2a in the past,like today's Greeks,with the Anatolization taking place with Turks(native Anatolian Greeks acolytes).
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For now we do not know it yet because we do not have genetic data to prove it, but ultimately everything is possible.
 
Dreptul Valah said:
I already edited my post.


EDIT


No,it's not,even if Captain Picard and Einstein said it,but taking "risks"in interesting situations, that is really possible.
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You may have been on a good track because Byzantium needed an alliance or Slav warriors at that time, still the Avars are in Pannonia. If we follow De Administrando Imperio Croatians are invited to fight Avars. But there are some Slavs who attack Byzantine, some Slavs who living in Byzantine etc etc. Maybe genetics or archaeogenetics says more in the future.
 
markod said:
Mtdna is really bad for tracking intra-European migrations. You need to familiarize yourself with the fundamentals.
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How do you know then that Slavs married Balkan women when you make no evidence?
 
markod said:
Look at any PCA and tell me why South Slavs generally do not plot with other Slavs.
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This is visible and if we follow Y DNA but I was asking you specific Balkans MtDNA which Croatian women have.
 
Under my subclade we have cousins in Sardinia who probably got there serving as mercenaries for Byzantium in early middle ages.
 
markod said:
Look at any PCA and tell me why South Slavs generally do not plot with other Slavs.
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Because they picked up i2a, v13 etc in central/south europe. Other slavs dont have much of this, mostly r1a
 
hrvat22 said:
How do you mean half Slavic? Today's Slovenes mostly have pre-Turkish Y genetics, probably with German (Austrian) R1b influence.

Therefore that there was no migration from east Balkan ( Turkish period) to Croatia the main haplotypes of Croatians would have been R1a and I2a ie. genetics that were brought from White Croatia or Carpatians to Balkans.
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what on earth are you talking about Slovenians have high rates of both R1a and I2a, everything about southern slavic y-haplogroups points to a slavic expanision into the area and mixing with local women.
 
srdceleva said:
what on earth are you talking about Slovenians have high rates of both R1a and I2a, everything about southern slavic y-haplogroups points to a slavic expanision into the area and mixing with local women.
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Although that guy was spewing nonsense, it is clear after the viminacium study and modern autosomnal + y dna results that a lot (in some cases most) of slavic autosomnal is actually from mtdna in south europe
 
TaktikatEMalet said:
Although that guy was spewing nonsense, it is clear after the Viminacium study and modern autosomnal + Y-DNA results that a lot (in some cases most) of slavic autosomnal is actually from MTDNA in South Europe
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In the Northern Balkans, Slavic Y-DNA ranges from 41% in Bulgaria and Montenegro to around 60-70% in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, and Slovenia, with Serbia sitting around 55%, and Macedonia up to 50%. In Greece, it varies from region to region, the lowest mainland Greek regions get is 21% in combined I2a and R1a lineages (Some Central Greek regions), around 35% in the Pelo (barring Maniotes). and over 41% in Northern Greece, and aDNA is more or less the same as the Y-DNA admixture, Lazaridis' premise regarding "female-biased" is not supported by Y-DNA studies.
 
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