Illyrian-Albanian Continuity

Status
Not open for further replies.
Lets stick to the facts, these are ,

1. The illyrian where conquered and annexed by the Romans in 168BCE
2 . The illyrian revolt in around 9AD , basically let to the slaughter and migration of many illyrian tribes
3. in around 60 AD the Roman imported people from NE Romanian lands, 50,000
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aelius_Catus
these people where placed in moesia.
4. from the annexation of illyria in 168BCE to Ptolemy mentioning Albanoi for the first time in 150CE is a span of 318 years where the Romans explored the lands for gold, silver, ore etc etc ....you saying they could not find these Albanoi in albanian lands in over 300 years!

lets think about this
 
zanipolo said:
Lets stick to the facts, these are ,

1. The illyrian where conquered and annexed by the Romans in 168BCE
2 . The illyrian revolt in around 9AD , basically let to the slaughter and migration of many illyrian tribes
3. in around 60 AD the Roman imported people from NE Romanian lands, 50,000
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aelius_Catus
these people where placed in moesia.
4. from the annexation of illyria in 168BCE to Ptolemy mentioning Albanoi for the first time in 150CE is a span of 318 years where the Romans explored the lands for gold, silver, ore etc etc ....you saying they could not find these Albanoi in albanian lands in over 300 years!

lets think about this
Click to expand...

Brought 50 000 people what are you talking about? your link says nothing....it just says who aelius is. Either stick to the arguments I brought up and agree/disagree/debate against them, or dont say anything at all. I dont have the time to answer all these random posts. I have presented the main arguments by historians. Do not bring up these obscure "facts". Either stick to the points I have presented and agree/disagree with them, or do not post anything at all.
 
Finalise said:
I've been wanting to make this thread for a while, and now I have some free time. Please, if you have a strong nationalistic bias, don't even bother commenting. If you have a slight bias, be careful of what you say. I don't want to turn this into a stupid 13 year old keyboard warrior convention. Both Yugoslavians and Albanians have a right to call Illyrians their ancestors in my opinion, if they want to that is.

I'm going to try to establish this continuity on a linguistic/historical basis. I'll also look at some counter-arguments as well.

Reason #1 The Tosk-Gheg split

This dialect split predates the slavic migrations in the balkans, and the river Shkumbin (central Albania) acts as the the divisive line. The reason why it predates it, is because both dialects deal differently with foreign borrowings, especially slavic words. (I'll leave it to whoever wants to research it). Illyrian is thought to have gone extinct at the same time this split happened. So one can establish that proto-Albanian and Illyrian were spoken roughly at the same place and time, making it difficult to call them different languages.
Click to expand...

If you want to act like a 13year old............then here

#1 - irrelevant to the title


Reason #2 Latin Borrowings

A great number of borrowed latin words, PREDATE the christian era. Illyrians were the only tribes in the Balkans to be conquered by the Roman Empire before the year 0. Thracians and Dacians were invaded around 100 AD. The only explanation for these pre 0 AD, words is that they were passed down from the Illyrians when they were first invaded around 3-200 BC.
Click to expand...

irrelevant to the title
Latin loanwords into Albanian show East Balkan Latin (proto-Romanian) phonetics, rather than West Balkan (Dalmatian) phonetics

Reason #3 Greek Borrowings

The same argument goes for borrowings from DORIC greek, which mean Illyrians/Albanians were living near northwestern Greece since times of antiquity. P.S. Remember while Epirus and Macedonia were Greek states, only the ruling class were greek, the rest of the population were of Illyrian/Macedonian stock.(I'm uncertain whether the two had any relationship)
Click to expand...

irrelevant to the title
there is scarcity of Greek loan words also supports a Dacian theory

Reason #4 No records of Migrations

The Byzantines documented all significant migrations in the Balkans, none are mentioned regarding Albanians arriving to this modern region.
Click to expand...

illyrians where not present when Byzantines existed - there was vlach migrations by the byzantines in the area in question

Arguments against

Let me talk about the main "historian" who contradicts this theory, Georgiev. I wanted to establish his own pro-Bulgarian bias, by quoting from one of his books where he talks about Thracians and Illyrians being these Greco-Germanic tribes who derived from the Pelasgians. Lunatic? Yes, very much so. But I have been searching for an hour and I cant find it. IF SOMEONE CAN, PLEASE POST A LINK! He makes very vague claims and assumptions, and his interpretations in grey areas are definitely biased driven.

#1 - He says Illyrians were coastal people, while Albanians are mountainous since they LACK maritime vocabulary.

First of all, even the word for sea in Albanian is det, which is original, although derived from PIE be it. Second of all, Albania/Southern Illyria is about 70-80% mountains, right next to the coast. You can be a mountainous AND coastal people due to the proximity of the mountains and sea in the Adriatic coast. There's also loads of other sea-animal names completely native to Albanian, such as gaforre (crab) which Leibniz said is related to the word fork.
Click to expand...

he also said that albanian speak a eastern romanian dialogue and this was agreed by many linguists

#2 - Eastern Balkan Romance words

This is definitely from contact with Romanians, although it doesnt make Albanians automatically Dacian, they are simply borrowings. And again there's a lot words in Albanian of Latin origin before the year 0 AD, before the Romans even invaded Dacia and Thracia.
Click to expand...

borrowings of hundreds of words , far more than any other borrowed from other languages
 
zanipolo said:
If you want to act like a 13year old............then here

#1 - irrelevant to the title




irrelevant to the title
Latin loanwords into Albanian show East Balkan Latin (proto-Romanian) phonetics, rather than West Balkan (Dalmatian) phonetics



irrelevant to the title
there is scarcity of Greek loan words also supports a Dacian theory



illyrians where not present when Byzantines existed - there was vlach migrations by the byzantines in the area in question



he also said that albanian speak a eastern romanian dialogue and this was agreed by many linguists



borrowings of hundreds of words , far more than any other borrowed from other languages
Click to expand...

first of all english's vocabulary is about 60% latin, and its still not considered a romance language.
second of all, dont use weasel phrases like agreed by many linguists.
third of all, you dismiss my two main arguments #1 the tosk-gheg split and #2 ancient latin vocabulary, by saying they're irrelevant?
the tosk-gheg split definitely happened 1500 years ago, around the center of Albania, around the same time historians agree the Illyrian languages went exctinct. which means proto albanian existed in Albania roughly the same time as Illyrian. you see my point?
Second of all, there is 3 waves of latin words in Albanian. One of those waves is words from 300-200 BC ancient latin NOT FOUND in romanian, care to explain those?
 
Finalise, your thread name is Illyrian-Albanian continuity.
This is a statement and not a question.
Why are you all continuing discussions about different topic?
I ask for renaming of this thread to something more accurate.
Dont forget its posted under linguistics, that means linguistic connection only.
How come a Moderator have not seen whats posted here?
Matching name for thread: Albanian-Illyrian similarities.
Why new thread when albanian language thread exist?
Close thread or rename it.
 
There're some obscure points about this continuity, but if Albanians aren't descendant of Illyrians than none else in Balkans is.
 
Eldritch said:
There're some obscure points about this continuity, but if Albanians aren't descendant of Illyrians than none else in Balkans is.
Click to expand...

100% WRONG

There might be individuals that are ancestors of Illyrians but not a modern nation today.
We are all from different ethnicity (tribes, nations) and so is the case even in today´s popultaion of nations.
There is no pure nation. http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Nation-state
 
DejaVu said:
Finalise, your thread name is Illyrian-Albanian continuity.
This is a statement and not a question.
Why are you all continuing discussions about different topic?
I ask for renaming of this thread to something more accurate.
Dont forget its posted under linguistics, that means linguistic connection only.
How come a Moderator have not seen whats posted here?
Matching name for thread: Albanian-Illyrian similarities.
Why new thread when albanian language thread exist?
Close thread or rename it.
Click to expand...

The Albanian language thread is closed. The thread is mainly about linguistics, but you cannot completely isolate linguistics from history, so there is some overlap.
 
DejaVu said:
100% WRONG

There might be individuals that are ancestors of Illyrians but not a modern nation today.
We are all from different ethnicity (tribes, nations) and so is the case even in today´s popultaion of nations.
There is no pure nation. http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Nation-state
Click to expand...

Of course, there is no pure nation. Even people within the same country differ genetically and to some extent linguistically. Even the Illyrians were not a pure race themselves. They were a mixture between tribes distantly related to Proto-Celts and Proto-Slavs (proto-Illyrians), and indigenous Balkan populations (i.e. The EV13 and J2 components of Albanian genetics). Im assuming the R1a-R1b-I were from the proto-Illyrians (related to the eastern Hallstatt culture). From http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-VI2.htm "As the Illyrians spread southwestward along the Dinaric Alps into Montenegro and Albania, they apparently blended with an indigenous brachycephalic mountain population which may have been more numerous than the invaders; for, with some additions and modifications, it persists as a predominant element today. In a small series of early Christian crania from a site near Split on the Dalmatian coast, 23 both Dinaric brachycephals and a few long-headed crania are represented. In Albania, a country which is almost completely unknown archaeologically, a single skull which belonged to a Romanized Illyrian group has been found in an Iron Age site in the tribe of Puka. 24 This skull is mesocephalic, and seems, insofar as we may judge, intermediate between the Illyrians of the old type and Dinarics.The significance of our study of the Illyrian peoples is as follows: on the plains of south central Germany and Lower Austria, where the Hallstatt culture arose, the racial type involved was skeletally a Nordic one. By this term we must understand that the Illyrian central type was similar in cranial dimensions, proportions, and general form to that of the Germans of the Völkerwanderung period. Historical evidence as to the pigmentation of the Illyrians is conflicting, 25 and insufficient to warrant the formation of an opinion on this matter. This "Nordic" type is no special or separate race, but merely a variant of the larger Mediterranean family, of an intermediate metrical position.
It finds a ready prototype in the Bronze Age population which stretched from Austria to Siberia, and which was in turn the product of mixture between Danubian peasants and Corded invaders. It seems most likely that the Illyrians were largely the descendants, more specifically, of the Aunjetitz people, through an Urnfields medium, or of some similar physical blend composed of identical racial ingredients.
".

Btw I didnt source anything feel free to look stuff up. My point is that all nations are a mixture, thats why I dont want to go into the whole genetics thing, and only stick to historical/linguistics. IMO the whole Y-Dna thing, is just a pseudo-science, and largely misunderstood.
 
Finalise said:
Of course, there is no pure nation. Even people within the same country differ genetically and to some extent linguistically. Even the Illyrians were not a pure race themselves. They were a mixture between tribes distantly related to Proto-Celts and Proto-Slavs (proto-Illyrians), and indigenous Balkan populations (i.e. The EV13 and J2 components of Albanian genetics). Im assuming the R1a-R1b-I were from the proto-Illyrians (related to the eastern Hallstatt culture). From http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-VI2.htm "As the Illyrians spread southwestward along the Dinaric Alps into Montenegro and Albania, they apparently blended with an indigenous brachycephalic mountain population which may have been more numerous than the invaders; for, with some additions and modifications, it persists as a predominant element today. In a small series of early Christian crania from a site near Split on the Dalmatian coast, 23 both Dinaric brachycephals and a few long-headed crania are represented. In Albania, a country which is almost completely unknown archaeologically, a single skull which belonged to a Romanized Illyrian group has been found in an Iron Age site in the tribe of Puka. 24 This skull is mesocephalic, and seems, insofar as we may judge, intermediate between the Illyrians of the old type and Dinarics.The significance of our study of the Illyrian peoples is as follows: on the plains of south central Germany and Lower Austria, where the Hallstatt culture arose, the racial type involved was skeletally a Nordic one. By this term we must understand that the Illyrian central type was similar in cranial dimensions, proportions, and general form to that of the Germans of the Völkerwanderung period. Historical evidence as to the pigmentation of the Illyrians is conflicting, 25 and insufficient to warrant the formation of an opinion on this matter. This "Nordic" type is no special or separate race, but merely a variant of the larger Mediterranean family, of an intermediate metrical position.
It finds a ready prototype in the Bronze Age population which stretched from Austria to Siberia, and which was in turn the product of mixture between Danubian peasants and Corded invaders. It seems most likely that the Illyrians were largely the descendants, more specifically, of the Aunjetitz people, through an Urnfields medium, or of some similar physical blend composed of identical racial ingredients.
".

Btw I didnt source anything feel free to look stuff up. My point is that all nations are a mixture, thats why I dont want to go into the whole genetics thing, and only stick to historical/linguistics. IMO the whole Y-Dna thing, is just a pseudo-science, and largely misunderstood.
Click to expand...

You are continuing with posts that have nothing to do with thread topic.

"They were a mixture between tribes distantly related to Proto-Celts and Proto-Slavs (proto-Illyrians), and indigenous Balkan populations (i.e. The EV13 and J2 components of Albanian genetics). Im assuming the R1a-R1b-I were from the proto-Illyrians (related to the eastern Hallstatt culture)."
No information about Illyrians being E-V13 or J2.
There is no such DNA found and connected with Illyrians.
Guessing is not same as found DNA from the persons.
Stop posting about what you think they had.
E-V13 and J2 is connected with all balkan people and many other, not only with Albanians.
What you are saying is what we know already "Illyrian-Balkan continuity" and not exclusive Albanian.



 
DejaVu said:
You are continuing with posts that have nothing to do with thread topic.

"They were a mixture between tribes distantly related to Proto-Celts and Proto-Slavs (proto-Illyrians), and indigenous Balkan populations (i.e. The EV13 and J2 components of Albanian genetics). Im assuming the R1a-R1b-I were from the proto-Illyrians (related to the eastern Hallstatt culture)."
No information about Illyrians being E-V13 or J2.
There is no such DNA found and connected with Illyrians.
Guessing is not same as found DNA from the persons.
Stop posting about what you think they had.
E-V13 and J2 is connected with all balkan people and many other, not only with Albanians.
What you are saying is what we know already "Illyrian-Balkan continuity" and not exclusive Albanian.
Click to expand...


What do you mean nothing to do with the topic? What do you think I'm talking about, the U.S. economy or human rights in China? I know E-V13 and J2 are connected with other balkan peoples, thats why I said INDIGENOUS BALKAN POPULATIONS yet to mix with the Proto-Illyrians descending from the north. There is no doubt that Albanians are genetically descendant for the MOST PART (NOT ALL) from Illyrians. It is absurd to say the people that were there, just completely disappeared off the face of the earth just because there is no detailed record of them for a few hundred years.

What I'm trying to discuss is very similar in the case of the Magyars/Hungarians. Although, Hungarians are extremely similar to their neighbours genetically, the "ORIGINAL" Magyars (the bearers of the language) did not originate in modern day Hungary. The same case is being discussed about Albanians by historians. Were the original "Albanians" just a descendant from a mixture of Illyrian tribes, or other tribes which migrated over and exerted their language to the Illyrian population during the era of Slavic migrations.
 
Finalise said:
What do you mean nothing to do with the topic? What do you think I'm talking about, the U.S. economy or human rights in China? I know E-V13 and J2 are connected with other balkan peoples, thats why I said INDIGENOUS BALKAN POPULATIONS yet to mix with the Proto-Illyrians descending from the north. There is no doubt that Albanians are genetically descendant for the MOST PART (NOT ALL) from Illyrians. It is absurd to say the people that were there, just completely disappeared off the face of the earth just because there is no detailed record of them for a few hundred years.

What I'm trying to discuss is very similar in the case of the Magyars/Hungarians. Although, Hungarians are extremely similar to their neighbours genetically, the "ORIGINAL" Magyars (the bearers of the language) did not originate in modern day Hungary. The same case is being discussed about Albanians by historians. Were the original "Albanians" just a descendant from a mixture of Illyrian tribes, or other tribes which migrated over and exerted their language to the Illyrian population during the era of Slavic migrations.
Click to expand...

Finally you start to realize,
check Anjou and Hunja-des both from same homeland origin, both connected with Albania, wonder maybe the same family name? anjou=hunja? that I can not certify,
on the other hand Arbanitika for many linguists are considered as not Albanian but early Albanian, something like ancient Greek to modern Greek,
so we probably speak of a pre 1050 1rst devastation (even in ancient times), and a devastation at Anjou and Hhunjades times, or a lingua Franca of Dukas (Dukas is nobility tittle)

on the other hand the existance of Goranje population, (you call them muslim Slavs,)
shows a Northern migration, Goranje are connected with Severi, Slavic tribes from Ucraine that pass Romania to Bulgaria to Slavic Makedonia to ALbania to Greece, does not seem able to make that overlap, at least to me, although I might be wrong,
I believe that break started happened in more ancient times before Slavic Migrations, although I might be wrong.
 
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure this out. All you have to do is look at what history tells us. History tells us that Illyrian pirates started attacking roman merchant ships. The merchants then asked the roman government to stop the illyrian piracy on the adriatic. Finally Rome decided to go to war with illyria. There were 3 illyrian wars, the last one ended in 168BC, with Rome conquering illyria. The romans romanised the illyrians. The illyrians started speaking latin, vulgar latin specifically. The illyrians didnt write their language, so it was easy for rome to latinize them. New generations were taught latin, and once the older generations died, so did their language and culture. The illyrians were R-O-M-A-N-I-Z-E-D. Illyrian language is dead, and so is their culture. If you want to find the descendants of illyrians, they will have to be romance language speakers in the balkan. Albanian language is not a romance language. If albanians were descendants of illyrians they would have to speak a romance language. But they don't. This tells us that the ancestors of albanians in roman times were outside of roman territory.
 
The Illyrians were indigenous Balkanic I2a tribesmen that seem to have descended from the Bosnia-Herzegovina region towards Albania; they are a genetic component of several different groups in the region...I2a is present at it's highest frequencies near Bosnia-Herzegovina/Croatia...Macedonia,Montenegro parts of Bulgaria, Slovenia, Moldova and the Ukraine also have slightly more inflated frequencies. Also present across Albania and the northern reaches of Greece from east all the way to west , also present in Romanian males.
 
vetus said:
The illyrians didnt write their language, so it was easy for rome to latinize them. New generations were taught latin, and once the older generations died, y.
Click to expand...
Keep in mind that there were no public schools nor TV to teach locals Latin quickly. Majority of Illyrians lived in Villages, but only in cities they would have some contacts with Roman officers or traders. Learning a new language by whole population was a very long process, counted in many hundreds of years. You can find many examples in today's europe where different ethnic groups speak their language, in spite of being surrounded by official language for centuries. Therefore, it is not hard to imagine that any language could survive till today, especially when it was isolated in Mountainous area.
 
  • Like
Reactions: FBS
The Illyrians descended from bosniia-Herzegovina towards Albania...who else could they have been then I2a men along with thracians and Dacians? Where they maybe R1b celts?
 
adamo said:
The Illyrians were indigenous Balkanic I2a tribesmen that seem to have descended from the Bosnia-Herzegovina region towards Albania; they are a genetic component of several different groups in the region...I2a is present at it's highest frequencies near Bosnia-Herzegovina/Croatia...Macedonia,Montenegro parts of Bulgaria, Slovenia, Moldova and the Ukraine also have slightly more inflated frequencies. Also present across Albania and the northern reaches of Greece from east all the way to west , also present in Romanian males.
Click to expand...

Haplogroup I2a is most spread in Bosnia and Herzegovina (55.5%), Croatia (37%) and Serbia (33%), data from Eupedia.

Macedonian researcher Dr Jankovski was found that Serbs, Croats and Bosnians have most similar DNA, and Macedonians too.

From all nations that he explored, Kosovo (Geg) Albanians are most different from others.

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/serbs-croats-have-most-similar-dna
 
LeBrok said:
Keep in mind that there were no public schools nor TV to teach locals Latin quickly. Majority of Illyrians lived in Villages, but only in cities they would have some contacts with Roman officers or traders. Learning a new language by whole population was a very long process, counted in many hundreds of years. You can find many examples in today's europe where different ethnic groups speak their language, in spite of being surrounded by official language for centuries. Therefore, it is not hard to imagine that any language could survive till today, especially when it was isolated in Mountainous area.
Click to expand...


Just to put things in perspective for you, illyria was not the only place that was romanised. To the west of italy, france and spain, known in roman times as gaul and hispania respectively, were romanised too. Both france and spain speak romance languages, western romance languages, ultimately derived from latin. Their language is hard stone, concrete evidence that they were romanised. You say it would take hundreds of years to romanise illyria. Well, lets take a look at gaul and hispania. Gaul was finally conquered in 52BC by augustus caesar. Thats 116 years after illyria was conquered by the romans. Hispania was finally conquered in 17BC, 151 years after illyria was conquered. If rome was able to romanise gaul and hispania in a shorter period of time, who each one of them were bigger in population and land area than illyria, why wouldnt rome be able to romanise illyria?! When you combine both gaul and hispania together, they were way bigger in population and land area than illyria.
 
Whats up with all this talk about serbians, bosnians, and croatians being illyrians. Do any of these people speak a romance language?! I don't need anybody to answer that question because the answer is NO. What about the albanians? Neither do they. Let's take for example bosnians. Just because bosnians today live in a land previouly inhabited by illyrians, that doesn't make them descendants of illyrians. If they were descendants of illyrians, they wouldn't speak a south slavic language. If we were to go by linguistic grounds, then none of these 4 peoples can claim descent from illyrians. As far as the albanians go, there is a difference between albanians and serbians,bosnians and croatians. They predate the serbians, bosnians or croatians in the balkans. Serbian, bosnian and croatian are south slavic languages. Slavic languages are a recent arrival in the balkans that came with the arrival of slavs. As for albanian language, there is 3 possibilities, them being illyrian, thracian, or dacian. Illyrian seems the least likely possiblility, with thracian and dacian being most likely. Whether it's thracian or dacian, both thracians and dacians predate the slavs in the balkans by a long time. So serbs or any other slavs for that matter can not claim any precedence over albanians in the balkans. Most believe that albanians were originally from a mountainous land. So what are they doing on the eastern coast of the adriatic? They were forced to move by westward and southward migrations of central asian people and slavs. The other option was to stay and get destroyed by populations that were way way bigger than the albanian populations.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

This thread has been viewed 485572 times.

Back
Top