Illyrian-Albanian Continuity

[Sile]

Do you know historic facts about Triballi?

You can see in Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi

The term "Triballians" appears frequently in Byzantine and other European works of the Middle Ages, referring exclusively to Serbs.^{[13][14][15][16][17]} Some of these authors clearly explain that "Triballian" is synonym to "Serbian".^{[18][19][20][21][22]} For example, Niketas Choniates (or Acominatus, 1155–1215 or-16) in his history about Emperor Ioannes Komnenos: "... Shortly after this, he campaigned against the nation of Triballians (whom someone may call Serbians as well) ..."^[23] or the much later Demetrios Chalkondyles (1423–1511), referring to an Islamized Christian noble: "... This Mahmud, son of Michael, is Triballian, which means Serbian, by his mother, and Greek by his father."^[24] or Mehmed the Conqueror when referring to the plundering of Serbia.^[25]


Triballi are Serbs.

Eustathius, bishop of Thessaloniki (in XIII century), when describing Serbian Grand Zupan Stefan Nemanja's arrival in Thessaloniki, title him as a "great archont of Tribals." Theodore Metohit for King Milutin says "the ruler of Tribals." Alexius Lambin called Milutin "Archont of Mizans and Tribals." Theodore Hirtakin Serbia called "Tribalia." ...

You can see Maciamo highlights that Thracians were I2a carriers (Serbian main haplogroup):

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...Alps-with-the-Thracians-Dacians-amp-Illyrians

Do you know that Geg Albanians almost don't have I2a haplogroup and it is reason why they are different from all peoples of the Balkans?

For example Tosk Albanians have over 20% I2a.

triballi, bessi, maedi, moesians where not illyrians, these tribes are too far south to be illyrians. These tribes are thracian

 

[vetus]

At Nobody1

Yes, thats what im suggesting. From a linguistic point of view istriots, istro-romanians and aromanians(vlach) are the true descendants of illyrians. The only reason we know about illyrians is because some greek and roman historians decided to write about them. Had they not written anything about illyrians, we would have never know that they existed. But if we are to believe these historians, we must believe everything they wrote about them, not just some part of the story. They also wrote that rome went to war with illyria, called the illyrian wars. There were 3 wars, ending in 168BC with rome conquering illyria. After this illyrians started gradually losing their illyrian language and began speaking latin, vulgar latin specifically, because thats what their conquerors the romans spoke at that time, a process called romanisation. Since illyrians didnt write their language, they left us no written record of their language, so we may not know what their language was like. But what we do know is that eventually they lost their language and started speaking latin. Based on this, the descendants of illyrians would have to be speakers of a latin derived language

 

[Ike]

From a linguistic point of view istriots, istro-romanians and aromanians(vlach) are the true descendants of illyrians.

How did you draw that line? What things do we know about languages of Illyrians and Istriots that would prove that. Could you please elaborate more?

The only reason we know about illyrians is because some greek and roman historians decided to write about them. Had they not written anything about illyrians, we would have never know that they existed.

Haven't Romans not existed to wage wars with Illyrians, maybe they would have existed right now.

But if we are to believe these historians, we must believe everything they wrote about them, not just some part of the story.

Wrong. Even a reliable historians made mistakes. Everything must be triple checked with other sources and to concur with the archaeological findings. Many misapprehensions can be found in the writings of old historians.

They also wrote that rome went to war with illyria, called the illyrian wars. There were 3 wars, ending in 168BC with rome conquering illyria. After this illyrians started gradually losing their illyrian language and began speaking latin, vulgar latin specifically, because thats what their conquerors the romans spoke at that time, a process called romanisation. Since illyrians didnt write their language, they left us no written record of their language, so we may not know what their language was like.

How do you know Illyric tribes didn't write their language?

But what we do know is that eventually they lost their language and started speaking latin. Based on this, the descendants of illyrians would have to be speakers of a latin derived language

We could guess all of that, only if we assume that there was people called Illyrians and language called Illyrian.

 

[Marko94]

In Venetian, Alba means the Italian word for Pioppo, which means the English word Poplar, which can mean Soft Timber.
IF the venetians named anyone there it was most likely to say forest dwellers....but...Venetians where not around when the Albanoi name emerged in 100AD.
So, the name either came from the latin Albus which means white or ??

Considering that the illyrian language vanished centuries before the Romans arrived due to Celtic immigration, then I do not know what you are saying.

The logical people who hid in the mountains where the ancient Dardanians, who where attacked on 3 sides at the same time for their fertile lands, the illyrians ( one tribe ) attacked from the north, the Thracians from the east and the Macedonians from the south. the dardanians fled into the mountains and became the original ( unsure IMO ) Albanians , while the nation of Albania became Albanians over time.
The Roman surveyors noted no albanians on their survey of modern albania while looking for mine of gold, iron, copper, silver etc etc

I wanted to say "if they are the descendants of illyrian because they have lost the culture latin with a small Slavic migration?".
Already in 1420 conquered the coast of Montenegro, and gave him the name "Venetian Albania".

 

[Garrick]

triballi, bessi, maedi, moesians where not illyrians, these tribes are too far south to be illyrians. These tribes are thracian

Yes, Thracian.

But someone linked Triballi and Albanians linguistic and I answered.

 

[vetus]

How did you draw that line? What things do we know about languages of Illyrians and Istriots that would prove that. Could you please elaborate more?


Haven't Romans not existed to wage wars with Illyrians, maybe they would have existed right now.



Wrong. Even a reliable historians made mistakes. Everything must be triple checked with other sources and to concur with the archaeological findings. Many misapprehensions can be found in the writings of old historians.



How do you know Illyric tribes didn't write their language?


We could guess all of that, only if we assume that there was people called Illyrians and language called Illyrian.

Some of your questions have been already answered by my previous posts.
Like i have said so many times we dont know much about the illyrian language because it is dead now. Illyrians spoke illyrian before being conquered by the romans. After being conquered by the romans, illyrians speak latin. The new language of the illyrians became latin. After they become romanised, from that time forward illyrians are latin speakers. And istriot is a latin language spoken by romanised people. Do you see the connection?

If romans had not gone to war with illyria, illyrian language would still be probably around today.

If they wrote their language we would have records or inscriptions of their language. But theres none. Whereas people like the greeks and the romans who wrote their language, theres plenty of inscriptions.

 

[MOESAN]

According to Bernard SERGENT «Les Indo-Européens»

albanese: first texts: second half of 15°century

the local (Albania) placenames have not an albanian phonetical evolution, but more slavic – the Albanians would have come in ancient southern Illyricum inly after Slavs and their language would show more affinities with daco-mysian than to thracian language; some grammtical peculiarities of today romance language of Romania show too some albanian affinity, as some words – the same with phonetical evolution of some loanwords -
so albanian, spite some links with what we know about ancient illyrian language, would be closer to the language of ancient Dacians: the affinities with illyrian are the result of an origin of all of them in a previous great I-Ean group made of albanian, illyrian, daco-mysian and thracian (plus some minor other languages faded out long ago)
what we know about illyrian is very tiny: only by some personal- and place-names! Old Illyricum was a creation of the roman empire, administrative, not ethnical – the North of this province spoke romance languages akin to venitian (ancient: the Veneti people's one, not the modern Veneto one), apprently -
on what we know based on so little material, it seems illyrian language (also very close to messapian) was spoken by tribes like Taulentians, Enkhelai, Piraei, around the northwestern greek fronteers, in a zone where Katicic fund full of anthroponymes corresponding well enough – as you came northwards, this personal names losted weight, replaced more an more by personal names close to venetic ones...
shortly said, albanian would be the language (of the same family, but more «nephew» or «far cousin» than «son» of illyrian, and spoken by a population I see firstable settled in central Balkans, survived in mountainous regions, and coming after to live in the region of their «far parents» after a Slavs «ebb»...

 

[vetus]

Keep in mind that there were no public schools nor TV to teach locals Latin quickly. Majority of Illyrians lived in Villages, but only in cities they would have some contacts with Roman officers or traders. Learning a new language by whole population was a very long process, counted in many hundreds of years. You can find many examples in today's europe where different ethnic groups speak their language, in spite of being surrounded by official language for centuries. Therefore, it is not hard to imagine that any language could survive till today, especially when it was isolated in Mountainous area.

Are you saying that some illyrians were romanised and some were able to escape romanisation?

 

[Garrick]

Old Illyricum was a creation of the roman empire, administrative, not ethnical

Yes.

It is big mistake when someone thinks that whole Illyricum was inhabited of the same tribes. There were various tribes. In some tribes dominated carriers of I2a/R1a. In another tribes dominated E1b1b1a2. Also possible in some another tribes dominated carriers some different haplogroups. It would be interesting to conduct researches haplogroups of bones and we would have much more of knowledge.

For me it is the biggest mistery is lack I2a haplogroup in Geg Albanians. All peoples of Balkans have significant I2a (mostly Bosniacs, Serbs and Croats). Even Tosk Albanians have significant share of I2a haplogroup. Only Geg Albanians do not have.

If I2a was main haplogroup of Illiyrians than Albanians have nothing with Illyrians.

My opinion is that Illyrians were not a homogenous group but collection of various unrelated tribes. Consequently not all Illyrians spoke same language and the question is whether unrelated tribes are considered themselves as the Illyrians.

 

[Ike]

Some of your questions have been already answered by my previous posts.
Like i have said so many times we dont know much about the illyrian language because it is dead now. Illyrians spoke illyrian before being conquered by the romans. After being conquered by the romans, illyrians speak latin. The new language of the illyrians became latin. After they become romanised, from that time forward illyrians are latin speakers. And istriot is a latin language spoken by romanised people. Do you see the connection?

No, I don't. Those are all hypotheses based on our current knowledge, which is clearly insufficient. I don't even know why do you bother to draw conclusions. What proofs do you have that Illyrians existed? OK, they were written about in some old Greek and Roman scripts. But so are Amazon women.

If they wrote their language we would have records or inscriptions of their language. But theres none. Whereas people like the greeks and the romans who wrote their language, theres plenty of inscriptions.

'We have none' is different than 'there is none'.

 

[MOESAN]

Yes.

It is big mistake when someone thinks that whole Illyricum was inhabited of the same tribes. There were various tribes. In some tribes dominated carriers of I2a/R1a. In another tribes dominated E1b1b1a2. Also possible in some another tribes dominated carriers some different haplogroups. It would be interesting to conduct researches haplogroups of bones and we would have much more of knowledge.

For me it is the biggest mistery is lack I2a haplogroup in Geg Albanians. All peoples of Balkans have significant I2a (mostly Bosniacs, Serbs and Croats). Even Tosk Albanians have significant share of I2a haplogroup. Only Geg Albanians do not have.

If I2a was main haplogroup of Illiyrians than Albanians have nothing with Illyrians.

My opinion is that Illyrians were not a homogenous group but collection of various unrelated tribes. Consequently not all Illyrians spoke same language and the question is whether unrelated tribes are considered themselves as the Illyrians.

Maybe... My report concerned language: but ethny long ago yet is more linked to language and other cultural traits (plus shared life events) than genetic traits, even if the more you put markers (genetics amid them) the more the ethny is caracterized - concerning genetics, I'm not sure at all Illyrians were at first Y-I2a1 -
this HG were (and is yet) strong in the Carpathians highlands and some of its bearers could have (surely) been taken in Illyrians moves, but I suppose Illyrians had some others HGs (maybe Y-R1a + local Y-E1b and Y-J2 of some subclade), why not some Y-R1b and Y-G2a? they are a late ethnic composition and they herited as other S-E Europe "I-Eans" local elements of Neolithical times (already mixt populations as Cucuteni-Tripolje and earlier ones around the Romania-Bulgaria mergins) - I think nevertheless Y-I2a1 and Y-R1a were very strong, if the phenotypes I think of were truly the dominant one among their "genuine" elite - with time, as you say, their groups could have become very mixed...
- I'm not sure their Y-I2a1 were of Dalmatia or Dinaric Alps - I look more on the Romania side (lack of detailed subclades as very often)... just bets without any proof, helas...

 

[kamani]

For me it is the biggest mistery is lack I2a haplogroup in Geg Albanians. All peoples of Balkans have significant I2a (mostly Bosniacs, Serbs and Croats). Even Tosk Albanians have significant share of I2a haplogroup. Only Geg Albanians do not have.

Gegs also have very little R1a. So they lack I2a+R1a, the 2 main south-slavic hg-s. If they're not Illyrian, than the came from Mars, because everybody else all around them for thousands of kilometers has a lot more R1a.

 

[Ike]

I suppose Ghegs are of Greek origin (Aeolians?).

 

[Garrick]

Gegs also have very little R1a. So they lack I2a+R1a, the 2 main south-slavic hg-s. If they're not Illyrian, than the came from Mars, because everybody else all around them for thousands of kilometers has a lot more R1a.

You can see, a lot of members of this forum thinks that Illyrians were I2a plus another haplogrups.

I write that terms Illyria, Illyricum and Illyrians only mean geographical terms. Illyrians probably were members of different tribes. Groups of tribes were not related with another groups of tribes. Probably different Illyrian tribes spoke different languages. One tribes were at war with another tribes. Etc.

My opinion is that term Illyrians for all tribes in Illyria or Illyricum is wrong.

If Illyrians have roots in Egypt (there are such theories) then it is possible that original Illyrians were E1b1b1a2. It means Greeks called wrong Illyrian tribes who were not Illyrians. Tribes whose members were carriers of I2a/R1a (about 70% of whole Illyria) were not Illyrians! Greeks (and later Romans) made mistake, and we are all now in confusion.

There are significant indicators that original Illyrians are from Egypt. It would be good to focus researches in this direction.

But if original Illyrians didn't live in 70% or more in territory of Illyria, who lived? Greeks probably made mistake and we today should correct this error. Because by all odds about 70% inhabitants of Illyria, that is, numerous tribes, probably spoke some variants South Slavic languages.

 

[vetus]

I have found a thracian tribe called dii. Di in albanian means to know. There is also an illyrian tribe called kinambroi. It literally means you have defended us. Mbroi means defended in albanian. Na mbroi means defended us. Ki na mbroi means you have defended us. I think the word ki would be in the gegh dialect. In tosk it would be ke. Im not sure if ki is in gegh dialect but if somebody who speaks the gegh dialect would confirm it, that would be great. Its the same thing like triballi, made up of tri which means three in albanian and balli which means forehead or front. In the gegh dialect three is tri and in tosk it is tre. Both triballi and kinambroi are in the gegh style

 

[FBS]

Reading the myths of Malcia (that I consider Dalmatia) about the Heroes that are known as Kreshniks, (in Serbian is wrongfully translated into Krajishnici linking them to Krajina) while Kreshnik means “the tough one, fearless one”. Kreshta is “crest” and “ridge” – again linked to mountains.

The myths of these Kreshniks mention that they live in Kladusa and Jutbina (today known as Velika Kladusa and Udbina in B&H and in Croatia). So, a part of today’s Gheg is from the regions of Dalmatia (not all Gheg speaking Albanians are highlanders). Since those highlanders and other lowland tribes understood each other means that they were sharing the same culture especially interchangeable language, therefore when the highlanders were pushed by Slavs from Dalmatia region towards today’s Montenegro seaside, Kosovo and North Albania means that they found common culture therefore could stick to each other more then to their Slav neighbours. So the Slavs contributed in creating an identity between those remaining old Illyric tribes that were loose in the beginning but who realized that they might be exterminated (culturally) if they do not stick together. Of course this was a long process since there were a lot inter-clan fights. This effect was not so strong by Romans nor by Greeks since Illyrians had similarities with them and there were a certain respect since they considered one another as autochthonous and not as newcomers, therefore those clans did not feel as threatened before. That is why the assimilation could not have happened completely, there is a huge influence but not a total one by Latins.

In order to understand the Albanians one should really know their old regional myths and especially old language which is quite archaic. Basing the theories in today’s Albanian is a complete futility because the official Albanian has lost a huge part of its old idiom. The Enver Hoxha politics and imposing of the Tosk dialect has created a big mess.

 

[Ike]

@vetus
Kinambroi is a Greek term Κινάμβροι. In nominative you have plural for -ος that is -οi.
You can't use Greek suffixes and explain it in Albanian. Even Albani is spelled Ἀλβανοί in Greek.

@FBS
Kresta is Slavic root (probably from PIE).

 

[FBS]

The highland Albanians are carriers of EV13 and possibly I. J2b2 is urban and lowland marker for Albanians. R1b is agricultural marker. EV-13 and I among Albanians represents the landlords, traders and fighters (pirates & mercenaries) and herders. J2b2 are the producers/craftsmen and the intellectuals. R1b lived in the lowlands, who produced wheat, honey, beer, fruits and vegetables. Highlanders always traded with the lowlands and they always created a nearby trading center (terg, pazar). The pirates of Teuta have been the E-V13. E-V13 has always preferred the heights near the sea or rivers. Even today Ulcinians (Ulqinakët) consider the real ones only those who live in the hilltop, old fortified city, next to the sea, everybody else is a newcomer to them. River, in one of the Illyrian dialects, is Dri - Drini i Dardhë, Drini i Zi, Drini, Drina.

To draw a conclusion, the Illyrian core were E-V13 (old substrate), J2b2 brought by Cadmus among encheley, who became a serpent with his wife Harmonia and he, among others, fathered Illyros and Celt. So R1b is the Celt addition, afterwards. And we know that Dardanians who were situated mostly in the today's Drenica region were also mixed with Celts, so for me Drenica should have a high percentage of R1b (L23) compared to other Albanians.

Dardanians worshiped the sun, and in Kosovo is still to this day a tradition to make a national dish "Fli" in the shape of sun. Fli in Albanian is "sacrifice". The addition by Illyros from Cadmus is the worshiping of the serpent who is considered the "House protector", and every house has one serpent according to the myth - Cadmus & Harmonia protectors of the Illyrians?

 

[Ike]

Drina is also river in Serbia. It's naming is coherent with other rivers like Don, Dniester, Dneper, Danube, probably by Schytians. They were probably of R1a origin.

 

[FBS]

Dri means "flow" and "winding", I do not think that it has anything in common with the rivers that you mention apart of the letter "D". I know that Drina is river in Serbia, precisely.