Illyrian-Albanian Continuity

[Garrick]

I think there should be 2 discussions,one about Illyrian language- Albanian language continuity and another one about Illyrian genetics-Albanian genetics continuity.

There is no connection between Albanian and Illyrian. It was mistake Albanian scientists in time of Enver Hoxha. Albanian authorities from that time loved this hypothesis.

(Albanian scientists in time of Enver Hoxha were mistaken, trying to prove unprovable.)

But science has long refuted this hypothesis.

For example you can read in The prehistory of the Balkans, edited by John Boardman, Cambridge University Press:

Page 848

"...Illyrian and Phyrgian should be classed as Centum languages".

"On the one hand Thracian, and Dacian have one of the main Satem characteristics..."

...
And we know that
Albanian is Satem.

Science says that
Illyrian and Albanian belong two different branch of IE language making them mutually exclusive of one another.

Reputable Albanian linguists Bariqi, Çabej etc. write it in scientific papers.

Illyirian and Albanian languages have no connection, two different IE branches, and Illyrians and Albanians have no connection.

It is the end.

 

[kamani]

this is becoming a joke now. People that don't even speak Albanian come here and talk with certainty about it.

 

[Sile]

this is becoming a joke now. People that don't even speak Albanian come here and talk with certainty about it.

well you talk about it as a certainty that albanian is illyrian...yet there is no written illyrian text anywhere..........so who is trying to fool who?

the only reason for this B...Sh.. is that the albanians want to claim some ancient affinity with someone in the balkans

just link me to an illyrian script

 

[Garrick]

this is becoming a joke now. People that don't even speak Albanian come here and talk with certainty about it.

But same argument. People that don't speak Illyrian come here and talk with certainty about it. Who here knows Illyrian? Nobody.

Every member of forum can participate in every theme and give contribution. Different opinions and arguments are normal.

I will give the opinion Albanian linguist Henrik Bariqi. This linguist claims that Albanian language belongs to Satem group and Illyrian language belongs to Centum group. Since these two languages belongs two different groups then it is not possible for them to have some kind of genetic connection.

He thinks that Albanian is closer to Thracian which belongs the same Satem group.

However world respectable Danish linguist Holger Pedersen emphasizes that Albanian and Armenian languages are the closest languages between them.

This theory of Danish linguists is interesting because one from three main Geg Albanian haplogroups is R1b ht35 Armenian haplotype, where Lucotte et al find that 16% male Albanian population belong this haplogroup. It can be possible that R1b ht35 carriers imposed language to E and J carriers, despite the fact that E&J carriers were more numerous (today E & J are about 63% at Gegs in Kosovo). Albanian is mix lot of languages but it ca be possible that it has strong Armenian influence.

 

[Ike]

Have E or J carriers spoken IE language throughout the neolithic? It seems to me very plausible that R1b was the culprit.

 

[kamani]

well you talk about it as a certainty that albanian is illyrian...yet there is no written illyrian text anywhere..........so who is trying to fool who?

There is no certainty because most languages in Europe were not written, just spoken. But if you go back on this thread and other related ones without a bias mind, you'll see that it is the most probable hypothesis.

the only reason for this B...Sh.. is that the albanians want to claim some ancient affinity with someone in the balkans

have you ever considered that they actually have that ancient affinity.

just link me to an illyrian script

There are some words that have survived but you wouldn't know whether they sound Albanian or not; you don't speak Albanian. Go learn it and then come here with more credibility. Right now you have taken some strange personal angle to fight Albanians.

 

[Ike]

He doesn't have to learn the whole language to know that. As we know, there is a very small number of words in Albanian language that is not of Greek, Slavic or Latin borrowing. Why don't we stick to that part?

We still don't know if even that part of Albanian vocabulary is in fact Albanian. It may be also borrowed from some ancient peoples that Albanians had contact with. Even if you find similarities between that "Albanian core" and Dacian or Thracian, that doesn't automatically mean that Albanians are Dacians or Thracians.

What if there was no Slavic languages on Earth, if their culture and language was extinct with no written data? Would it be OK then to say that Albanians were Slavs just because they have 20% Slavic words of their language?

 

[Garrick]

Have E or J carriers spoken IE language throughout the neolithic? It seems to me very plausible that R1b was the culprit.

Some Albanian linguists were looking for a connection Albanian with Old Egyptian and Coptic. There are Afro Asiatic (Hamitic) words in Albanian.

R1b is R1b ht35, Armenian haplotype. For example Danish linguist Holger Pedersen emphasizes that Albanian and Armenian languages are the closest languages between them.

Main haplogroup today's Geg Albanians is E-V13 wit significant part of J2 and R1b,ht35.

 

[Garrick]

He doesn't have to learn the whole language to know that. As we know, there is a very small number of words in Albanian language that is not of Greek, Slavic or Latin borrowing. Why don't we stick to that part?

We still don't know if even that part of Albanian vocabulary is in fact Albanian. It may be also borrowed from some ancient peoples that Albanians had contact with. Even if you find similarities between that "Albanian core" and Dacian or Thracian, that doesn't automatically mean that Albanians are Dacians or Thracians.

What if there was no Slavic languages on Earth, if their culture and language was extinct with no written data? Would it be OK then to say that Albanians were Slavs just because they have 20% Slavic words of their language?

Albanian has a lot of similarities with Dacian/Thracian and Balto Slavic languages.

It was borrowed from tihese languages, probably Albanians lived somewhere in today's Romania, Bessarabia or near in that region.

Albanian is Satem as Dacian/Thracian and Balto Slavic.

And Armenian is Satem.

Albanian borrowed words from Dacian/Thracian, Balto Slavic, Armenian, Latin, Greek, Turkish, Arabian etc.

 

[skaheen15]

This issue of the Albanian language has always confused the heck out of me. First of all, can anyone here speak with authority on just how strong the supposed Illyrian/Messapic connection actually is? Everything I've read suggests that it's highly speculative, just as the(now discredited) Illyrian/Venetic connection was. If there really was a close relationship between Messapic and Illyrian, than Illyrian was almost certainly a centum language, and if that's the case, how could Albanian be continuing it? A Thracian or Dacian heritage for Albanian seems much more likely to my layperson's mind. Also, I've seen that Albanian double-headed eagle on a bunch of Thracian coins, not that that's proof of anything, I think the Hittites also used it, but, it's interesting if nothing else.

 

[Sile]

There is no certainty because most languages in Europe were not written, just spoken. But if you go back on this thread and other related ones without a bias mind, you'll see that it is the most probable hypothesis.

have you ever considered that they actually have that ancient affinity.

There are some words that have survived but you wouldn't know whether they sound Albanian or not; you don't speak Albanian. Go learn it and then come here with more credibility. Right now you have taken some strange personal angle to fight Albanians.

No strange personal angle at all, just need to know how you can justify being Illyrian, when a tribe called Albanoi from no earlier recorded in history than 150AD is your only basis to claim every illyrian tribe under your banner .....do you think this is a mega-extreme attitude....and a 100% wrong attitude?

 

[Sile]

This issue of the Albanian language has always confused the heck out of me. First of all, can anyone here speak with authority on just how strong the supposed Illyrian/Messapic connection actually is? Everything I've read suggests that it's highly speculative, just as the(now discredited) Illyrian/Venetic connection was. If there really was a close relationship between Messapic and Illyrian, than Illyrian was almost certainly a centum language, and if that's the case, how could Albanian be continuing it? A Thracian or Dacian heritage for Albanian seems much more likely to my layperson's mind. Also, I've seen that Albanian double-headed eagle on a bunch of Thracian coins, not that that's proof of anything, I think the Hittites also used it, but, it's interesting if nothing else.

Messapic was once thought to be illyrian, its now thought to be a part of Epirote language as its confirmed that Phyrrhus king of the Epirotes had warred against Rome and could communicate fluently with the messapics who aided him and also supplied some troops.

Molossians are also epirotes.........there are about 14 epirote tribes which make up the Epirote nation...............it was destroyed once the Macedonians annexed them in the time of Alexander the Greats father..Philip II

The double headed eagle IIRC was also used by Byzantines and Serbs

EDIT: disconnected before finishing
The Epirotes re-emerged after Alexander's death .

 

[skaheen15]

The double headed eagle IIRC was also used by Byzantines and Serbs

The Serbs still use it, as did imperial Russia, the Hapsburgs, and others. I meant B.C.E., you don't see it much, so it's interesting that one of the only national groups using it at that time depth is one with a possible connection to the Albanians.

 

[kamani]

No strange personal angle at all, just need to know how you can justify being Illyrian, when a tribe called Albanoi from no earlier recorded in history than 150AD is your only basis to claim every illyrian tribe under your banner .....do you think this is a mega-extreme attitude....and a 100% wrong attitude?

ok, I'll send you a scanned copy of my Illyrian passport.

 

[Sile]

ok, I'll send you a scanned copy of my Illyrian passport.

Explain to me, since all Illyrian tribes assimilated with , modern Italians, greeks, macedonians, slavs , modern Austrians and others, except Albanoi from central Albania, I dont see why Albanians would have right to have the name illyrians. Basically the term Illyrian belongs to many people or NO people. Its a geographical term like balkan, scandinavian etc

Read, below.....the lands of albania was originally Greek, the Greek first encountered the illyrians in Modern Montenegro

The name of Illyrians as applied by the ancient Greeks to their northern neighbours may have referred to a broad, ill-defined group of peoples, and it is today unclear to what extent they were linguistically and culturally homogeneous. The Illyrian tribes never collectively regarded themselves as 'Illyrians', and it is unlikely that they utilized any collective nomenclature for themselves.^[7] The term Illyrioi may originally have designated only a single people who came to be widely known to the Greeks due to proximity.^[18] This occurred during the Bronze Age, when Greek tribes were neighboring the southernmost Illyrian tribe of that time in Zeta plain of Montenegro.^[8] Indeed, such a people known as the Illyrioi have occupied a small and well-defined part of the south Adriatic coast, around Skadar Lake

 

[kamani]

Read, below.....the lands of albania was originally Greek, the Greek first encountered the illyrians in Modern Montenegro

How do you know they were Greek? What evidence do you have of people in this area in the Bronze Age? Even in Greece people are not sure that they spoke Greek in the Bronze Age.

[TABLE="class: wikitable sortable jquery-tablesorter"]
[TR]
[TD]Cretan Hieroglyphic[/TD]
[TD]Crete[/TD]
[TD]c. 1625–1500 BC[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Linear A[/TD]
[TD]Aegean islands (Kea, Kythera, Melos, Thera), and Greek mainland (Laconia)[/TD]
[TD]c. 1800–1450 BC[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Linear B[/TD]
[TD]Crete (Knossos), and mainland (Pylos, Mycenae, Thebes, Tiryns)[/TD]
[TD]c. 1450–1200 BC[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Cretan Hieroglyphic and Linear A are undeciphered, so as much as scientists and linguists have banged their head against the wall, they do not fit the Greek language. Linear B was undeciphered until 1953, than all of a sudden Michael Ventris switched his story from saying this is not Greek, to this is Greek. So even Linear B, nobody knows for sure is it Greek or not.
Real Greek appeared in the 9th century BC as a modification of the Phoenician alphabet, with the innovation of adopting certain letters to represent the vowels. Phoenicians were sea people and so were Greeks, in the mainland there was somebody else...

SO STOP TRO-LLING.

 

[Sile]

How do you know they were Greek? What evidence do you have of people in this area in the Bronze Age? Even in Greece people are not sure that they spoke Greek in the Bronze Age.

[TABLE="class: wikitable sortable jquery-tablesorter"]
[TR]
[TD]Cretan Hieroglyphic[/TD]
[TD]Crete[/TD]
[TD]c. 1625–1500 BC[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Linear A[/TD]
[TD]Aegean islands (Kea, Kythera, Melos, Thera), and Greek mainland (Laconia)[/TD]
[TD]c. 1800–1450 BC[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Linear B[/TD]
[TD]Crete (Knossos), and mainland (Pylos, Mycenae, Thebes, Tiryns)[/TD]
[TD]c. 1450–1200 BC[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Cretan Hieroglyphic and Linear A are undeciphered, so as much as scientists and linguists have banged their head against the wall, they do not fit the Greek language. Linear B was undeciphered until 1953, than all of a sudden Michael Ventris switched his story from saying this is not Greek, to this is Greek. So even Linear B, nobody knows for sure is it Greek or not.
Real Greek appeared in the 9th century BC as a modification of the Phoenician alphabet, with the innovation of adopting certain letters to represent the vowels. Phoenicians were sea people and so were Greeks, in the mainland there was somebody else...

SO STOP TRO-LLING.

because it says so, it does not say albanians

 

[Garrick]

because it says so, it does not say albanians

Yes, it is good questions. Albanians do not exist on any historical map BC.

 

[Ike]

No strange personal angle at all, just need to know how you can justify being Illyrian, when a tribe called Albanoi from no earlier recorded in history than 150AD is your only basis to claim every illyrian tribe under your banner .....do you think this is a mega-extreme attitude....and a 100% wrong attitude?

And they don't even call themselves Albanians.






Anyway, there are other theories also. Some of them may not even be Albanians. It's interesting that we have so high E-V13 in the parts (like Kosovo) where people claim their African ancestry:


"Their numbers in the province of Kosovo reportedly are even greater. The provincial chapter`s secretary, Qerim Abazi, claims more than 250,000 Egyptians currently are registered as Albanians."
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1991-01-06/news/9101020455_1_egyptians-albanians-kosovo

"We were not allowed to say that we were Egyptians, because we were told we that we are Albanians because our language is Albanian."
http://mightynose.wordpress.com/201...egyptians-under-nato-and-albanian-occupation/

"In the Bulgarian version of the XIV century biography pf St. Barbarous, who lived in IX century, a great number of "Egyptians", who lived on the sea coast around Durres, are mentioned."
http://www.coe.int/t/dg4/education/ibp/source/FS_1_10.5.pdf

"From some historical documents we know that Gypsy chiefs arriving at the city gates of fifteenth-century European towns presented themselves as 'Dukes of Egypt' or 'Dukes of Little-Egypt'."
http://dare.uva.nl/document/470960

 

[LeBrok]

Yes, it is good questions. Albanians do not exist on any historical map BC.

Common Garic, as for scientific guy it is not wise to present a map made in last few years and call it historical map from 5th century BC, or show it as proof of things back then. The wild guesses, which this map should be called, are based on couple of Greek historians, who only got information from third hands, and used names which don't exist anymore or we don't know where to locate them. We can call it guess work, thats it.