Illyrian-Albanian Continuity

[vetus]

Hi all. I want to talk about the word albanoi because it can point us in the right direction as to who is closest to illyrians. A lot of albanians think that because the word albanoi sounds similar to the word albanian, that it must be proof that albanians are descendants of illyrians. But albanian is what outsiders call shqiptars. Albanians don't call each other albanian, they call each other shqiptar. The word albanoi doesn't mean anything in albanian(shqip) language. The word albanoi means something in aromanian. It's made up of alba(feminine) meaning white and noi meaning we. Noi also means
we in romanian and italian, which makes perfect sense since italian is descended from latin. I have included 2 links for you to see for yourself
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/albu#Aromanian
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/noi#Aromanian
Check also this link if you want to check more aromanian words
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Aromanian_terms_derived_from_Latin
I know its wikipedia and it's not a reliable source, but when it comes to these 2 words i can assure you it's correct. You can ask any aromanian or italians(for italian only the word noi) and they will tell you this is correct. The albanoi were a romanised people. Illyrians were romanised by romans after being finally conquered by rome in 168 BC.
I don't think albanoi proves albanians are illyrians, actually it's to the contrary.
So the word albanoi can't be used as proof that albanians are illyrians.
I'm not saying albanians are not illyrians, but the word albanoi is not the correct evidence. A lot of albanians have been saying that the word albanoi is evidence that albanians are illyrians because they don't know aromanian language.
But if you know aromanian language and albanian language and some latin you will clearly understand what albanoi means in aromanian, and that albanoi doesn't mean anything in albanian. Check the words in the links i have provided, it will help you all understand better. In my opinian based on what we know so far aromanians are the closest to the illyrians

 

[vetus]

I'm really suprised when some albanians freak out when they're told they could be partly thracian.
This is not something outsiders are saying. Albanian school history books say that albanians are thraco-illyrian.
Some say thracians were greater than illyrians. If you ask anybody outside of balkans who spartacus was, they will all know who he was.
Lots of movies have been made about him. Spartacus was a mighty man. He almost brought down the roman empire.
Who did illyrians have as famous as spartacus?! I would be proud to be descended from thracians.
Some albanians are beginning to say that they could be partly thracian. Some thracians were romanised too, so aromanians are also partly thracian.
I will post a mtDNA test done on thracian skeletons:

Recent genetic analysis comparing DNA samples of ancient Thracian fossil material from southeastern Romania with individuals from modern ethnicities point to genetic kinship with modern Italian, Albanian and Greek populations, followed by Romanians and Bulgarians.[46]

Source:
^ Cardos, G., Stoian V., Miritoiu N., Comsa A., Kroll A., Voss S., Rodewald A., p. 246.
"Computing the frequency of common point mutations of the present-day European population with the Thracian population has resulted that the Italian (7.9 %), the Albanian (6.3 %) and the Greek (5.8 %) have shown a bias of closer genetic kinship with the Thracian individuals than the Romanian and Bulgarian individuals (only 4.2%)."

The reason some albanians freak out when they're told they could be thracian is cause albanians live in albania. In present day albania lived illyrians. So they think since this is were we live now, this must be where our ancesters came from.
But this is faulty logic. And a lot of people fall victim to this faulty logic. Just because you live in a certain place now, that doesn't mean that's where your ancestors lived.
Let me give you some good examples. Lots of white and black people live now in north america. But we clearly know that there was no black or white people in north america before christopher colombus got there.
So you can't say white people and black people descend from native americans. Another example is the slavs. Just because there's slavs in the balkans now doesn't mean there were slavs in the balkans before the 5th century AD.
The slavs got in the balkans in the 5th century after the roman empire fell. This is part of life. Things change. Some nations form, others die. You think that nations you see now existed from the beginning of time?!
So don't assume that things were back then the way they are now. Before 5th century AD latin was spoken in balkans. It was part of the roman empire known as the eastern roman empire, until the slavs arrived then everything changed.
And latin speakers began to be assimilated to slavic language and culture quickly.
Another reason albanians might not want to say they could be thracian is because as soon as they say that, serbs will begin to tell them "oh you're not illyrian".
But hold your horses slav. If albanians are not illyrian neither are you. In your case we clearly know slavs can't be illyrian since evidence and history says there were no slavs in the balkans before the 5th century BC.
In the case of albnians it's more complicated. Albanians have been in the balkans way before the 5th century, but the question is are they illyrian, are they thracian or maybe remotely dacian? I'm not making this up. This
is what the scientists are saying. And there's no evidence to say albanians are illyrians

 

[LeBrok]

Another reason albanians might not want to say they could be thracian is because as soon as they say that, serbs will begin to tell them "oh you're not illyrian".
But hold your horses slav. If albanians are not illyrian neither are you. In your case we clearly know slavs can't be illyrian since evidence and history says there were no slavs in the balkans before the 5th century BC.
In the case of albnians it's more complicated. Albanians have been in the balkans way before the 5th century, but the question is are they illyrian, are they thracian or maybe remotely dacian? I'm not making this up. This
is what the scientists are saying. And there's no evidence to say albanians are illyrians

It makes sense, but I have a feeling that things will unfold more complicated in the future from genetic testing of ancient people. It will turn that there was a group who came from other places and "converted" locals to their new culture. We might see that most of Albanians or Bosniaks might be genetically descendants from natives of this region, and only some elements related to groups from far away. Then we will argue what is more important in determining the origin of people, the culture or genetics, and if genetic than in what percentage?

 

[Sile]

@vetus

People who read know Thracian ( as a society ) are more powerful than Illyrians, they where earlier in the balkans than the Illyrians.
The only reason most think Illyrians are more powerful is because Illyrians fought against the Romans for a long time and thracians barely fought against the Romans. The Roman historians where looking at propaganda for Roman Generals in fighting fierce opponents

As for Albania..........ancient sources place the Doric origins in albania in the bronze-age..............the dorians replaced the Mycenaean and others people in Hellenic Greece ..and became greek, so Doric areas became Greek naturally due to this..............there are many many documents and maps that show Doric origins in modern Albania

 

[kamani]

@vetus

As for Albania..........ancient sources place the Doric origins in albania in the bronze-age..............the dorians replaced the Mycenaean and others people in Hellenic Greece ..and became greek, so Doric areas became Greek naturally due to this..............there are many many documents and maps that show Doric origins in modern Albania

Who spoke Greek originally, the Mycaneans or the Dorians? (don't say both please..)

 

[vetus]

Hi LeBrok. I agree with you. I'm not saying that bosnians can't be illyrian at all. There were illyrians who lived in present day bosnia. Most of them were assimilated to slavic culture and language. They didn't just disappear. So yes you will find some bosnians who are descended from illyrians genetically. But when it comes to culture and language, bosnian language and culture can't be descended from illyrians. I'm not sure if we know yet what illyrians were genetically. You posted a very good question in the end. I don't know which is more important, genetics could be a little more important I think but it's not that simple. But the best candidate for illyrian descendants would be people who fit both the genetic and the language requirements. As for genetics haplogroups are not owned by a single nation. Look at R1b, its found all over europe. Let's say for example you had 3 nations B, C and D and they were all genetically similar, and we were trying to determine who is the descendant of a people that we will call A. In that case you can't use genetics to distinguish since they're all similar, so it would be best to use culture and language in that situation. You made a very good question in the end

 

[Sile]

Who spoke Greek originally, the Mycaneans or the Dorians? (don't say both please..)

Unsure...you tell me

 

[FBS]

Hi all. I want to talk about the word albanoi because it can point us in the right direction as to who is closest to illyrians. A lot of albanians think that because the word albanoi sounds similar to the word albanian, that it must be proof that albanians are descendants of illyrians. But albanian is what outsiders call shqiptars. Albanians don't call each other albanian, they call each other shqiptar. The word albanoi doesn't mean anything in albanian(shqip) language. The word albanoi means something in aromanian. It's made up of alba(feminine) meaning white and noi meaning we. Noi also means
we in romanian and italian, which makes perfect sense since italian is descended from latin. I have included 2 links for you to see for yourself
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/albu#Aromanian
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/noi#Aromanian
Check also this link if you want to check more aromanian words
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Aromanian_terms_derived_from_Latin
I know its wikipedia and it's not a reliable source, but when it comes to these 2 words i can assure you it's correct. You can ask any aromanian or italians(for italian only the word noi) and they will tell you this is correct. The albanoi were a romanised people. Illyrians were romanised by romans after being finally conquered by rome in 168 BC.
I don't think albanoi proves albanians are illyrians, actually it's to the contrary.
So the word albanoi can't be used as proof that albanians are illyrians.
I'm not saying albanians are not illyrians, but the word albanoi is not the correct evidence. A lot of albanians have been saying that the word albanoi is evidence that albanians are illyrians because they don't know aromanian language.
But if you know aromanian language and albanian language and some latin you will clearly understand what albanoi means in aromanian, and that albanoi doesn't mean anything in albanian. Check the words in the links i have provided, it will help you all understand better. In my opinian based on what we know so far aromanians are the closest to the illyrians

I am afraid that your approach to this matter is too simplistic. In the following I will try to present my view in this matter, hope it will be understandable.

Let us take as an indirect example as a comparison. For eg. Aryan vs Alani: Alani is a dialectal form of Aryan. Aryan does not mean "white race" as we all popularly (non-scholarly) think due to Nazi racial theory. Aryan through Armenian means brave & noble, or man (people). In Proto-Indo-European the "Ar" created words that again had the meaning of noble and uplifted such Art, Aristocracy (and so on, not to make it too long).

So, Albanoi: Albanians, before calling themselves Shqiptarë they named themselves Alban, Arban, Arben, Arbër - all those are dialectal forms. Serbian dossiers (old) name Albanians as Arbanasi; Turks call us Arnaut. Old Albanians that moved just after the death of Scanderbeg identify themselves as Arbëresh (south dialect) or Arbnesh, in Greece there are Arvanites (Greek influence, they otherwise address one another as Arbëresh).

I have presented my opinion about different names of Albanians and its meaning and all of them describe one and the same meaning - the highlanders. There is the similarity with Albion (Scotland). Again Romans gave the name Albion to Scotland not because they were white or because Scotland was sunny. There must be taken much more circumstances into consideration and especially the mindset of the time (due to life conditions) in order to find the just meaning. We cannot understand with the today mindset names of tribes or ethne that were created thousands of years before us because we become subjective.

 

[FBS]

As an addition to my previous post (since I did not have enough time to finish it) here are the etymologies for Alp:

The English word Alps derives from the Latin Alpes (through French). Maurus Servius Honoratus, an ancient commentator of Virgil, says in his commentary (A. X 13) that all high mountains are called Alpes by Celts. The term may be common to Italo-Celtic, because the Celtic languages have terms for high mountains derived from alp.
This may be consistent with the theory that in Latin Alpes is a name of non-Indo-European origin (which is common for prominent mountains and mountain ranges in the Mediterranean region). According to the Old English Dictionary, the Latin Alpes might possibly derive from a pre-Indo-European word *alb "hill", with Albania being a related derivation. Interestingly, Albania (which is a foreign name for modern Albanians) has been used as a name for a number of mountainous areas across Europe. In Roman times, Albania was a name for the eastern Caucasus, while in the English language Albania (or Albany) was occasionally used as a name for Scotland.^[3]

Here is the link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alps

I would also add that "alp" in Turkish is mountain, so it can easily be that it is an old pre-indo-european name that has persisted to this day.

 

[vetus]

@FSB
We're talking about the word albanoi, the tribe mentioned by Ptolemy the geographer. I gave you a literal translation of what these words mean. And they don't mean anything in albanian. You understand albanian and you know they don't mean anything in albanian, so you have to accept that. The word albanoi is not proof that albanians descend form illyrians. As for the word alb. Ok, fine let's say it means mountain! Even then alb doesn't mean anything in albanian. The albanian word for mountain is mal, and for highlander is malsor or malcor. If alb meant mountain, then albanoi means our mountain. And then you have to account for the word noi, cause alba is not the only word in albanoi. And noi doesn't mean anything in albanian either. And then you're beating around the bush, talking to me about Scottish this Scottish that. I get your point that alb may mean mountain, but it doesn't mean anything in albanian. Albanoi doesn't mean anything in albanian. I'm not saying albanians can't be descended from illyrians, but the word albanoi doesn't prove that albanians are descended from illyrians

 

[FBS]

@vetus

You can ignore my posts if they disapprove your theory.

 

[Aberdeen]

I am afraid that your approach to this matter is too simplistic. In the following I will try to present my view in this matter, hope it will be understandable.

Let us take as an indirect example as a comparison. For eg. Aryan vs Alani: Alani is a dialectal form of Aryan. Aryan does not mean "white race" as we all popularly (non-scholarly) think due to Nazi racial theory. Aryan through Armenian means brave & noble, or man (people). In Proto-Indo-European the "Ar" created words that again had the meaning of noble and uplifted such Art, Aristocracy (and so on, not to make it too long).

So, Albanoi: Albanians, before calling themselves Shqiptarë they named themselves Alban, Arban, Arben, Arbër - all those are dialectal forms. Serbian dossiers (old) name Albanians as Arbanasi; Turks call us Arnaut. Old Albanians that moved just after the death of Scanderbeg identify themselves as Arbëresh (south dialect) or Arbnesh, in Greece there are Arvanites (Greek influence, they otherwise address one another as Arbëresh).

I have presented my opinion about different names of Albanians and its meaning and all of them describe one and the same meaning - the highlanders. There is the similarity with Albion (Scotland). Again Romans gave the name Albion to Scotland not because they were white or because Scotland was sunny. There must be taken much more circumstances into consideration and especially the mindset of the time (due to life conditions) in order to find the just meaning. We cannot understand with the today mindset names of tribes or ethne that were created thousands of years before us because we become subjective.

The name "Alba" seems to have been originally applied to Britain by the Romans because of the white cliffs of Dover, and in some documents they referred to it as "Albion". However, it is true that some Scottish people later used the name to refer to Scotland specifically. The word "alba" does seem to be an old IE word meaning "white", and since mountains often have snow on their peaks year round, because of the high altitude, it's not surprising that the name would come to be associated with mountains, IMO.

I wouldn't try to decide whether the Albanians were or weren't descended from some ancient group of people based on a name such as "Albanian" or "Illyrian". Tribes and nations have often been called by different names over the centuries, and sometimes the same name can be applied to completely different people (e.g. "Prussian", depending on the time context, can refer to either Baltic or German folk).

 

[Aberdeen]

As an addition to my previous post (since I did not have enough time to finish it) here are the etymologies for Alp:

The English word Alps derives from the Latin Alpes (through French). Maurus Servius Honoratus, an ancient commentator of Virgil, says in his commentary (A. X 13) that all high mountains are called Alpes by Celts. The term may be common to Italo-Celtic, because the Celtic languages have terms for high mountains derived from alp.
This may be consistent with the theory that in Latin Alpes is a name of non-Indo-European origin (which is common for prominent mountains and mountain ranges in the Mediterranean region). According to the Old English Dictionary, the Latin Alpes might possibly derive from a pre-Indo-European word *alb "hill", with Albania being a related derivation. Interestingly, Albania (which is a foreign name for modern Albanians) has been used as a name for a number of mountainous areas across Europe. In Roman times, Albania was a name for the eastern Caucasus, while in the English language Albania (or Albany) was occasionally used as a name for Scotland.^[3]

Here is the link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alps

I would also add that "alp" in Turkish is mountain, so it can easily be that it is an old pre-indo-european name that has persisted to this day.

If "alp" does mean mountain in Turkish, I assume the Turks borrowed it from an IE language. Obviously, Turkish is not an IE language.

 

[mihaitzateo]

Hi all. I want to talk about the word albanoi because it can point us in the right direction as to who is closest to illyrians. A lot of albanians think that because the word albanoi sounds similar to the word albanian, that it must be proof that albanians are descendants of illyrians. But albanian is what outsiders call shqiptars. Albanians don't call each other albanian, they call each other shqiptar. The word albanoi doesn't mean anything in albanian(shqip) language. The word albanoi means something in aromanian. It's made up of alba(feminine) meaning white and noi meaning we. Noi also means
we in romanian and italian, which makes perfect sense since italian is descended from latin. I have included 2 links for you to see for yourself
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/albu#Aromanian
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/noi#Aromanian
Check also this link if you want to check more aromanian words
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Aromanian_terms_derived_from_Latin
I know its wikipedia and it's not a reliable source, but when it comes to these 2 words i can assure you it's correct. You can ask any aromanian or italians(for italian only the word noi) and they will tell you this is correct. The albanoi were a romanised people. Illyrians were romanised by romans after being finally conquered by rome in 168 BC.
I don't think albanoi proves albanians are illyrians, actually it's to the contrary.
So the word albanoi can't be used as proof that albanians are illyrians.
I'm not saying albanians are not illyrians, but the word albanoi is not the correct evidence. A lot of albanians have been saying that the word albanoi is evidence that albanians are illyrians because they don't know aromanian language.
But if you know aromanian language and albanian language and some latin you will clearly understand what albanoi means in aromanian, and that albanoi doesn't mean anything in albanian. Check the words in the links i have provided, it will help you all understand better. In my opinian based on what we know so far aromanians are the closest to the illyrians

Yes,Aromanians can be closest people to Ilyrians,since their paternal lines are not really clustering to Italians.
I would like to add the fact that largest Aromanian city,called Moscopole,was in Albania :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscopole

 

[Sile]

Yes,Aromanians can be closest people to Ilyrians,since their paternal lines are not really clustering to Italians.
I would like to add the fact that largest Aromanian city,called Moscopole,was in Albania :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscopole

Aromanian still have most of its mix with Romanian.
Romanians are not ancient illyrians and so neither are Aromanians

 

[mihaitzateo]

Aromanian still have most of its mix with Romanian.
Romanians are not ancient illyrians and so neither are Aromanians

Based on what proofs is this opinion?
Romanian is a language that is very uniform,someone from NW Romania can understand someone from SE Romania without any problems,everyone speaking in their dialects.
(which shows is a very old language and not a language that was adopted after the conquest of Roman Empire - which conquest did not included even half of today Romania,maybe 25% or so,from today land of Romania and if you take Bessarabia ,like 20% of the land were most people have Romanian as mother tongue.)
Romanian have a lot of cognates to Romance languages,70--75% of the words are cognates with modern Romance languages.
After Romance,it got 20% or so cognates with Slavic languages and it also has a few cognates to Lithuanian.
But the grammar of Romanian is neither closed to Slavic or closed to Romance languages,is very closed to Macedonian dialect and other Balkanic languages.
Ilyrians were not speaking a Satem language,how Albanian is.
Is known that Dacians came and conquer a native population and from how Romanian language is and from the groups of Aromanians spread South of Danube,this ancient population which was before Thraco-Dacians came was speaking a language closed to Italic,more exactly closed to today Romanian.
While Dacians I think were speaking some kind of Slavic,closed to today Serbo-croatian .
Albanians came with other Satem speakers,which included Slavic people and so on.
Albanian language is clearly most closed to Iranian,from today Indo-European languages.

Let me give you another hint, alb in Romanian,means white,which explains very good the name of Albania - since the tops of the mountains are most of the years covered with snow,so are white and from the here the name,white country,Albania.

 

[FBS]

All those that are speaking about Albania and its name and especially its mountains, should go and see it for real several times a year. With the approach that snow was the key to name it Albania, then Austria or Switzerland, and few more countries for that matter, should have been named Albania by Romans as well because of the snow in its mountains. Why was then Scotland named Albany, Albion or Albania, due to few patches of snow: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_patches_in_Scotland . Hardly...

 

[mihaitzateo]

All those that are speaking about Albania and its name and especially its mountains, should go and see it for real several times a year. With the approach that snow was the key to name it Albania, then Austria or Switzerland, and few more countries for that matter, should have been named Albania by Romans as well because of the snow in its mountains. Why was then Scotland named Albany, Albion or Albania, due to few patches of snow: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_patches_in_Scotland . Hardly...

I do not know when Romans had Austria under their rule.
As for Switzerland,which was under Roman rule,was part of Celtica and the current name is from a Gaulish tribe,living there,called Helveti.
Why only Scotland and Albania were called Albania ,well,no idea.

 

[Sile]

I do not know when Romans had Austria under their rule.
As for Switzerland,which was under Roman rule,was part of Celtica and the current name is from a Gaulish tribe,living there,called Helveti.
Why only Scotland and Albania were called Albania ,well,no idea.

Romans took and held modern Albanian lands from the Macedonian empire before the Romans took Austria and Switzerland from the helveti, raetic , gallic, celtic and illyric people........at least over 100 years before

 

[Zemra]

snip

Hi all. I want to talk about the word albanoi /snip

Can I reply all your quotes in one? OK, Medieval Albanians were called by two names, although I'm still confused whether one named referred to the people, the other to the language. The first one was Arber or Arben depending on the dialect, and this is what Albanians outside Ottoman Albania still call themselves. There are the Arberesh (<Albanensis) in Italy, Arvanitika in Greece and Arbanasi(also oldest term recorded to refer to Albanian) in Croatia. They're all derived from the same root. It's pretty much agreed it's from Albanoi, but it's a loanword in very very early Albanian.

The other word used to refer to Medieval Albanians, although used more to refer to the language than the people, is Epirotean. In fact one of the oldest Albanian curses was pound in a play "Dramburi te clofto goglie" (I hope your mouth trembles [from sickness]), using Albanian orthography it would be "Dramburi te klofte golje", but standard Albanian form is "Tremburi te qofte goja". The people are not referred as Epirotean, but the language is. The medieval people referred both themselves and the language something that had the root arb-. Epirotean was very likely an exonym. http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.23...28&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21103894958891

The term Shqiperi on the other hand appeared very late, earliest mid 17th century, so please don't use the excuse Albanians don't use the term Albania to refer to their country therefore they can't be related. We used to. That's the name we're recorded with during our medieval history. It still refers to Albanians, just not in Albania.

Yeah, I agree I don't know why internet Albanians are so frightened at being part Thracian, it's learned in schools and normal people accept it. I have nothing to say about this. I-Albanians are quite contradicting to what's learned in elementary school. On scholar level, Mysi based on placenames, graves etc. followed the linguistic evolution of Albanian:

This is the last time in history Illyrians are attested. In roughly Mysan territory. But Mysan was related to Thracian https://encrypted.google.com/books?...d=0CEMQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=daco mysian&f=false So what, Thracians and Illyrians mingled together? Name mistaking? TBH I just wanted to clarify the Albania-Shqiperi debate, that's why I posted here, I don't care how you interpret that, or why is that map like that. I did not make it. That and I wanted to explain how the Balkan history has been a mess for a looong time.

The only thing that's sure of the origin of Albanians is Proto-Albanians did not originate from somewhere outside the Balkans.

Calling all the Eastern Romanian languages Romanian it's not the right way. It's like denying Mozarabic a place in the Romance family and calling it Spanish. Aromanians are a weird group and cannot be classified as one. The thing is their genetic analyses puts them all in different branches. There is nothing that unites all Aromanian people, they resemble the most the population they reside next to. It's a blanket term. There are several different Aromanians residing in several different countries. They're not the same.