Is the high Jewish frequency of hg G representative of the pre-Arabic Levant ?

sparkey said:
Rather than speculating about Jews, it may be more useful to compare Lebanese communities, which we have good studies about, like here.

Comparing Maronites (presumably more representative of the pre-Arab Levant than most populations) and Lebanese Muslims (presumably having some Arab influence) gives the following haplogroup shifts:

Maronite->Muslim
E1b: +5%
G: +3% (!)
I: -2%
J1: +3%
J2: -8%
L: -2%
R: 0%
T: 0%

I don't think I've seen evidence that the ancient Levant had substantial G. I'd continue with the "expansion within the diaspora" hypothesis, personally.
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The Maronites are only one small community in the Levant. The data I cited for the Levant includes all the studies I know for Syria, Lebanon, Palestine and Jordan. The average for hg G is 3.5% for both Muslims and Christians.

We will see what proportion of G turns up in future ancient DNA samples from the Near East.
 
I Don't Know If This Is Of Any Use To Anyone, But There Is A Group Of People In Lebanon, Israel And Syria Known As The Druze, They Adhere To An Abrahamic Religion Different From Judaism, Christianity, And Islam. They Are Believe To Represent Genetically An Ancient Population In The Middle East, Haplogroup G reaches a frequency of 10% in the Israeli population, so maybe this can help the theory that G is an ancient remnant.

https://sites.google.com/site/haplogroupgproject/geographical-distribution
 
Anthro-inclined said:
I Don't Know If This Is Of Any Use To Anyone, But There Is A Group Of People In Lebanon, Israel And Syria Known As The Druze, They Adhere To An Abrahamic Religion Different From Judaism, Christianity, And Islam. They Are Believe To Represent Genetically An Ancient Population In The Middle East, Haplogroup G reaches a frequency of 10% in the Israeli population, so maybe this can help the theory that G is an ancient remnant.

https://sites.google.com/site/haplogroupgproject/geographical-distribution
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The Druze are somewhat of an isolate population whose origin is a bit difficult to ascertain due to their isolation. I'm not sure how good of a representation of the ancient Levant they are. Their own origin stories tell of Persian origins, and they may drift a little closer to Persians than other Levantines do, but they aren't anything like a bridge between Levantines and Persians on genetic maps.

Anyway, regarding their high levels of G, Ted Kandell has:

Ted Kandell said:
The Druze of the Galilee have a high percentage of G2a, >20%, but the Druze of Lebanon have only one single G and he is clearly G1 (probably G1a). The Druze G2a haplotypes are very likely to be G2a4 of the "Northwest Arabian" variety.
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As far as I can tell, that means that there's an important expansion of a possibly foreign G haplotype within the Druze of Israel, but otherwise G isn't a typical Druze haplogroup.
 
sparkey said:
The Druze are somewhat of an isolate population whose origin is a bit difficult to ascertain due to their isolation. I'm not sure how good of a representation of the ancient Levant they are. Their own origin stories tell of Persian origins, and they may drift a little closer to Persians than other Levantines do, but they aren't anything like a bridge between Levantines and Persians on genetic maps.

Anyway, regarding their high levels of G, Ted Kandell has:



As far as I can tell, that means that there's an important expansion of a possibly foreign G haplotype within the Druze of Israel, but otherwise G isn't a typical Druze haplogroup.
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I Would Have To Agree, Since I Have Less Knowledge, On Their Origins. However Id Like To Also Add That The Druze Have Tales That Claim That Their Origin In The Middle East Goes Back For Tens Of Thousands Of Years, But To Further Your Point On A Recent Origin For The Druze Is That Haplogroup L Makes Up 35% Of Their Y DNA, Which Is South Asian In Origin. Thought Id Just Add That, But Thanks For The Feedback To.
 
Maciamo said:
I don't know about the Caucasus, but it seems to be the same.
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While in general there is a slight bias for wishing to have male offspring as heirs and warriors in Caucasian mentality, selective abortion is totally out of question due to religion and general traditional culture.
 
Anthro-inclined said:
I Would Have To Agree, Since I Have Less Knowledge, On Their Origins. However Id Like To Also Add That The Druze Have Tales That Claim That Their Origin In The Middle East Goes Back For Tens Of Thousands Of Years, But To Further Your Point On A Recent Origin For The Druze Is That Haplogroup L Makes Up 35% Of Their Y DNA, Which Is South Asian In Origin. Thought Id Just Add That, But Thanks For The Feedback To.
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The 35% figure came from a study that only sampled 20 Israeli Druze. The new gold standard for Druze sampling is Shlush 2008, which had a much larger sample of Israeli Druze, and found only 5%, with the frequencies increasing near Mt Carmel. Lebanese Druze from the same study had 8% L, which is roughly the same as the Maronites, who also have high levels relative to other Lebanese. That makes me think that L was higher in the ancient Levant, but probably nothing like 35% levels.
 
sparkey said:
The 35% figure came from a study that only sampled 20 Israeli Druze. The new gold standard for Druze sampling is Shlush 2008, which had a much larger sample of Israeli Druze, and found only 5%, with the frequencies increasing near Mt Carmel. Lebanese Druze from the same study had 8% L, which is roughly the same as the Maronites, who also have high levels relative to other Lebanese. That makes me think that L was higher in the ancient Levant, but probably nothing like 35% levels.
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Interesting, Makes Sense That 35% Is Ridiculous Because Its Highest Regional Averages Are 25% In South Pakistan And The Himalyas, But Other Than Its High Distribution In The Druze And Other Alleged Ancient Populations, What Makes You Believe That It Has An Ancient Mid East Origin, As It Formed In South Asia And Seems To Be Mostly Isolated There. Also At What Time Do You Think L Arrived In The Middle East.
 
Anthro-inclined said:
Interesting, Makes Sense That 35% Is Ridiculous Because Its Highest Regional Averages Are 25% In South Pakistan And The Himalyas, But Other Than Its High Distribution In The Druze And Other Alleged Ancient Populations, What Makes You Believe That It Has An Ancient Mid East Origin, As It Formed In South Asia And Seems To Be Mostly Isolated There. Also At What Time Do You Think L Arrived In The Middle East.
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You're right, I shouldn't be so loose with terms like "ancient." All that a relatively high frequency of L in both Maronites and Druze compared to regional Muslims indicates is that it may have been relatively high pre-Arab Conquest... not necessarily all that ancient. I'd need to look at subclade diversity to give a better date.
 
no. Haplogroup G in jewfish people, what little of it that there is, is due to minor genetic influence from the Caucasus region, Georgia, Azerbaijan and Ossetians and other north Caucasus people's in particular descending towards the levant in small numbers
 
Hurrits and Kassits invaded Near-Eastern between beginning and half of 16° century BC - their origin seem in Caucasus and E-Anatolia - sure a deep analysis of Y-G downstreams would be wellcome but it is a possibility for some southern Y-G -
and Shepharads spend a long time in the northern parts of Near Eastern-Levant, close to Armenia, and some of them showed big similarities with the Armenian phenotypical mix -
 
Yes G2 is from Caucasus if this is what you are trying to say
 
adamo said:
Yes G2 is from Caucasus if this is what you are trying to say
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Yes, as a whole - to explain the global high enough frequence -
but in details, perhaps some Y-G subgroups were yet among the jews and other semitic people, even IF NOT AS A DOMINENT element of the population DNA - the global sketche remains the same nevertheless
 
Haplogroup G has its origin most likely in the Zagros or Mesopotamian area too.

The only person with Haplogroup G* I know so far is a Kurd currently residing in Qatar on ftDNA.
 
Haplogroup G comes from haplogroup F (M89). F originated in southern Iraq and began moving northwards towards the Caucasus. Once near Georgia/Armenia, haplogroup G originated. One branch proceeded east penetrating deep into modern day Iran.the P15 branch proceeded west crossing turkey and ending up from Greece, to Italy, to Sardinia and a few rare parts of the alps. Today haplogroup G reaches its highest percentages in its Caucasus origin point, with the Ossetians and Georgians having highest percentages followed by Azeris and Armenians at much lower %. The next highest frequencies are in...Sardinia! (20%) and certain parts of southern Italy (10-15%).
 
adamo said:
Haplogroup G comes from haplogroup F (M89). F originated in southern Iraq and began moving northwards towards the Caucasus. Once near Georgia/Armenia, haplogroup G originated. One branch proceeded east penetrating deep into modern day Iran.the P15 branch proceeded west crossing turkey and ending up from Greece, to Italy, to Sardinia and a few rare parts of the alps. Today haplogroup G reaches its highest percentages in its Caucasus origin point, with the Ossetians and Georgians having highest percentages followed by Azeris and Armenians at much lower %. The next highest frequencies are in...Sardinia! (20%) and certain parts of southern Italy (10-15%).
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High Frequency /=/ place of origin. There is a study about this thematic. According to this study the more likely place of origin is either Transcaucasus, Iranian plateau or Anatolia/Mesopotamia.

In (North) Caucasus most Haplogroup G are G2. While G1* and G2* is more present further south. Haplogroup G* is the parental clade of both.
 
No I'm pretty sure G first originated in the Caucasus and spread out from there towards Iran and another branch towards Europe.
 
In fact you are correct, G1 may have originated in Iran G2 probably originated in the Caucasus. It's amazing how the European landscape has changed so dramatically since the Neolithic when G seems to have dominated Europe but was replaced by other more successful haplogroups...reminds me of the "hg T in the Middle East" story.
 
wait and see: we have yet very few Y- ancient DNA for Great Europe (an for other places) -it's better for mt-DNA -
the metric surveys concerning Neolithic in France and Mediterranea show very different landscapes according to places and the neolithical element was far to be the dominent one in more than a population - Mesolithic people were still there! even if a dominent population can impose more male DNA %, but I think agricultural people were not so patriarcal...
the neolithic settlements which were studied were the most visible traces of life; surely some parallelic life hunter gatherers lived side by side with them but left less traces?!?...
 
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