Is Turkey a Western country ?

Caneker said:
Hmm, some of you guys have a bad Turkey profile in your heads. Turkey is in the middle of the world so its not completely western. Lots of culture mixed up, generally same with any eastern european culture. Cose to the greek and Italian i guess.

Turkish government trys hard for EU because of the refoms, Turkey is a little bit locked up after Ottoman Empire. Some anti-democratic elements came up to protect the secular regim no matter what. EU reforms helps the government fix these problems more easy.

I dont know why but some european's hate us, i guess its all about the religion and historical facts. And this shows how tolerant some of the europeans. Stop acting like all europe is perfect.
Turkey is much more better then some European countries in any condition. Groving fast.
There is a line between criticizing and insulting/hating.
You can criticize, but be positive. We will keep on reforming whatever you say.




No, its mostly kurdish culture, we are trying to stop terorism and help to kurdish folk socially. They dont let the girls go to school, government pays their families to stop this and help their economy. They have their traditional laws. We are trying to fix these problems but terorism is the main problem.
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EU has many problems EU is not the solution for Turkey EU will be over in a near future .
 
Many suggested that the AKP's rise to power presented Turkey with an opportunity to "go back to the Middle East" and adopt more of an Islamic identity. The hope was that such a shift would help "normalize" Turkey, recalibrating the secularizing and nationalist reforms of Kemal Atatürk, who turned Turkey to the West in the early twentieth century. The outcome, however, has not been so positive. Turkey's experience with the AKP proves that Islamism in the country's foreign policy may not be so compatible with the West, after all.
 
Turkey is neither western nor European. Western Europeans are only now discovering the issues associated with Islam entering their society. I'd say Turkey in eastern Europe can even be commended for forming a shared sense of European Christian identity amongst different European ethnicities. For many of us the Ottomans were the common enemy. Purely invaders of a very different culture from which our history and ethnic identity was further formed. The Hajduks are one example of Balkan peoples common response to the Ottomans... Having said that, modern Turkey I think is more of a gateway between east and west. One of the more modern Islamic countries which can serve to help bridge the actual barriers between east and west. A testament to the wests openness... it may even be thought of as vitally important in that sense as alternatively we would surely risk consequences of alienating the east.
 
i dont understand what people are discussing here about.
is turkiye a part of european culture?

of course no? we are mostly affected by iran before being muslim, by arabs after being muslim, by byzantium after having istanbul and by europe after being republic.

can turkiye a part of EU?

of course yes. because eu needs us. and unfortunately, we need EU. EU needs our dynamic economy and young population to feed your elders and sell their relatively expensive products. while we need to learn and live your democracy and philosophy.

it is not imp. what you think if you want or not, as individuals. it is more imp. what goverments want.

do the turks have same origin with europeans?

it depends. R1b1 extracted in anatolia. and we have considerable amount of people in north part of anatolia having this gene. but in the rest of anatolia there is a mixture of J, G and even I. one of the most impure distribution thanks to one of the most favourite country in the world.

the question is: are we turks of central asia (the main root of R1)? or a mix of ancient anatolia? although, genetic surveys say opposite, we still feel like HUNs. and we are happy with it. so, in terms of feelings, we never feel like we are european. but we want what we like in you: knowledge (to convert it to money).

and finally, about the history of anatolia: people must firstly have some knowledge before producing some idea. most of the posters here dont know the history of anatolia but feel free to extract exact ideas. history of anatolia doesnt start with istanbul or konstantinopolis. there were nativa settlers 3000 thousand years before byzantium. the first settlers were mesopotamians (asurrians with J), caucasians (hittites with R1b1 and G), luvvis (not clear who they are. but they were the dominant culture BC 2500 e.g. trojans, probably lycians). byzantines were just the second conqueror after hittites and before seljucks and ottomans. .... etc etc
 
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Very interesting points barbarian. It's hard not to agree with them. Welcome to Eupedia.
 
Western Country = A country whos main cultural legacy are Greco-Roman culture and christianity.

It's pretty simple.
 
So is Mexico, they speak Spanish and are very christian.
What about Russia?
 
It was pretty obvious already that some of my opinions about Mexico have got deep into you and that's why you go around the forum harassing and defaming me... but please, let's focus on the topic this time. We are talking about Turkey here darling, not about Mexico.

Try to ignore me just for once... could you? :cheer:
 
^ lynx ^ said:
Western Country = A country whos main cultural legacy are Greco-Roman culture and christianity.

It's pretty simple.
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i guess, practically, this definition may be good starting point to analyse "what is western country". Although, it looks weird to me to define a country as christian, since only human can have religion, not country.

So, what is the main criterias of greco-roman culture, or how do you define it? and do you think all the europe ensure these criterias?

and i agree, turkey is not western country.
 
Well if we agree in the subject there's no need for further arguing.

Greetings.
 
I lived in Turkey years ago in my old Air Force days. I'd say from what I saw Turkey is a mixture of old Europe and Middle Eastern traditions.
 
In addition from my observations living there is that Turkey today is far from being a country whose main cultural legacy is Greco-Roman culture and Christianty. So I'd say Turkey is not a Western country.
 
Gwalwynne said:
In addition from my observations living there is that Turkey today is far from being a country whose main cultural legacy is Greco-Roman culture and Christianty. So I'd say Turkey is not a Western country.
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you must be very impressed of turkey, since all of your posts (2) related to turkey. you are right turkey neither greco nor romanand we have some middle east traditions. but what is the meaning of 'old europe traditions'.

and i wonder in which part of turkey you were? which city?
adana?
http://www.forumturka.net/resimyukle/uploads/9cacf8a7c1.jpg
istanbul?
http://www.goktepe.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/istanbul.jpg
or izmir
http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/38479/izmir2.jpg

i dont know any other place for that air force stuff.
 
Maciamo said:
Well, I do't know how much you know about Greece and Turkey. Historically, the Western part of present-day Turkey belongs to Ancient Greece. In the 4th century BC, Alexander annexed Anatolia (what is now Turkey) to the Greek sphere of influence, as well as the whole middle east. Then came the Romans. In the 4th century AD, Constantinople become the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire, later to become the Orthodox Christian Byzantine Empire, which official language was Greek. So up to the 15th century when the Muslim Turks from Central Asia (Turkmenistan !) invaded the Byzantine Empire and created the Muslim Ottoman empire (renaming Byzantium/Constantinople "Istanbul"), what is now Greece and Turkey were the same country, with the same culture, language, religion and history. So what is it that the Turks have change, if not the official language and religion, and bringing some Asian blood (but, as you probably know, there are still blue-eyed Turks of European ancestry) ?



I think you are doing the common mistake to confuse Islamic countries with Arabic ones. Turkey is not an Arabic/Semitic country at all. People are of European (Aryan) and Central Asian (related to Mongols) descent. The language itself is closer to Mongol and cental Asian languages than any others. I am not a specialist of the Turkish language, but from what I know, it has lots of words of European origin (esp. Greek and Italian). Culturally, if it's true the Islamic influence differentiate it from Europe (though not Albania or Bosnia or parts of Yugoslavia and Bulgaria in this respect), Turkey aspire to be European. It feels so much closer to Europe that it has trying very hard to join the EU, for much longer than Eastern European countries. Religion, poor economic performances, the petty disputes with Greece and human rights abuses against the Kurds, have prevented it to be officially part of Europe so far.

If you check the official Turkish tourism website, you'll see that they boast about their European and especialy Greek heritage. A Turk would also probably be more offended to be called an Arab than a European, from what some Turkish friends told me (though they'd be angry at being called Greek because of the current problems between the 2 countries :p ).

I would see Turkey as a hybrid country, half European, half Central Asian. The cultural differences you cited are not very deep - they certainly aren't more substantial than the differences between North and South Koreans, and would disappear in a generation if the political and educational system were to change.



- Religion/culture : see above. Covered women are not so much a norm as a fashion in Turkey (like in Malaysia). You'll rarely see entirely veiled women all dressed in black. They usually just wear a headscarf, and it's more common nowadays than 20 years ago. There is no obligation whatsoever, it's just a personnal choice and trend. That is completely different of how they see it in most Arabic countries.

- Turkey's geographical location has little to do with the ethnic, historical or cultural aspects.

- Big families are just a result of poorer economies. Seeing how fast this has changed in Italy and Spain, I expect that Turkey could be in the EU average in less than 15 years. After all, Italians, who used to have very big families traditionally and till the 1950's or 60's, now have the lowest birth rate in Europe with a decreasing population. But has it changed their culture ? I don't think so.



Exactly ! I am happy you point that out. You are demonstating yourself that Turks are in fact much closer in lifestyle to Greeks, Bulgarians or Yugosavs than to Finns, Irish or even English.
That doesn't help us define what is "Westerness", does it ? Thanks for your contribution anyway.
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i totally agree with all the above...it is so true....the Turks as a nation are the result of millenia or migrations of different peoples, just like any other european country...so to me they are european, racially, ethnically, culturally, historically....but not linguistically as others mentioned already....their culture, being in the middle of europe and asia, contains a mixture of both, just like greek, bulgarian and other balkan nations' do....so to the question if turkey is european the answer is yes...if they should join EU is another story....another topic on itself....
 
Maciamo said:
Well, I do't know how much you know about Greece and Turkey. Historically, the Western part of present-day Turkey belongs to Ancient Greece. In the 4th century BC, Alexander annexed Anatolia (what is now Turkey) to the Greek sphere of influence, as well as the whole middle east. Then came the Romans. In the 4th century AD, Constantinople become the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire, later to become the Orthodox Christian Byzantine Empire, which official language was Greek. So up to the 15th century when the Muslim Turks from Central Asia (Turkmenistan !) invaded the Byzantine Empire and created the Muslim Ottoman empire (renaming Byzantium/Constantinople "Istanbul"), what is now Greece and Turkey were the same country, with the same culture, language, religion and history. So what is it that the Turks have change, if not the official language and religion, and bringing some Asian blood (but, as you probably know, there are still blue-eyed Turks of European ancestry) ?



I think you are doing the common mistake to confuse Islamic countries with Arabic ones. Turkey is not an Arabic/Semitic country at all. People are of European (Aryan) and Central Asian (related to Mongols) descent. The language itself is closer to Mongol and cental Asian languages than any others. I am not a specialist of the Turkish language, but from what I know, it has lots of words of European origin (esp. Greek and Italian). Culturally, if it's true the Islamic influence differentiate it from Europe (though not Albania or Bosnia or parts of Yugoslavia and Bulgaria in this respect), Turkey aspire to be European. It feels so much closer to Europe that it has trying very hard to join the EU, for much longer than Eastern European countries. Religion, poor economic performances, the petty disputes with Greece and human rights abuses against the Kurds, have prevented it to be officially part of Europe so far.

If you check the official Turkish tourism website, you'll see that they boast about their European and especialy Greek heritage. A Turk would also probably be more offended to be called an Arab than a European, from what some Turkish friends told me (though they'd be angry at being called Greek because of the current problems between the 2 countries :p ).

I would see Turkey as a hybrid country, half European, half Central Asian. The cultural differences you cited are not very deep - they certainly aren't more substantial than the differences between North and South Koreans, and would disappear in a generation if the political and educational system were to change.



- Religion/culture : see above. Covered women are not so much a norm as a fashion in Turkey (like in Malaysia). You'll rarely see entirely veiled women all dressed in black. They usually just wear a headscarf, and it's more common nowadays than 20 years ago. There is no obligation whatsoever, it's just a personnal choice and trend. That is completely different of how they see it in most Arabic countries.

- Turkey's geographical location has little to do with the ethnic, historical or cultural aspects.

- Big families are just a result of poorer economies. Seeing how fast this has changed in Italy and Spain, I expect that Turkey could be in the EU average in less than 15 years. After all, Italians, who used to have very big families traditionally and till the 1950's or 60's, now have the lowest birth rate in Europe with a decreasing population. But has it changed their culture ? I don't think so.


Exactly ! I am happy you point that out. You are demonstating yourself that Turks are in fact much closer in lifestyle to Greeks, Bulgarians or Yugosavs than to Finns, Irish or even English.
That doesn't help us define what is "Westerness", does it ? Thanks for your contribution anyway.
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i agree mostly. additionaly, arranged marriages, honor killings, emphasis on pride/honor are mostly stands in east/south-east part of anatolia where arabic kurdish culture are dominant. in black sea side, caucasian traditions are dominant. central anatolia mostly turkmen coming from central asia and iran (see seljucks). during the seljucks time in anatolia which was also turkish empire before ottomans, iran culture was more effective than arabic culture on turks eg. official language was persian, and the official language of persians was turkish :). during the ottoman empire turkmans were loveless because of their emigrant lifestyle, they were not paying tax, and contributing to the army enough. the dominant leaders were mostly from balkans, mostly slavic. the specialists and traders were armenians, jews, romans. ottomans were very cosmopolit and peacefull for a long period of time because of this division of labour till the nationalism were imported from europe.


For an average turkish arabics are lazy and dirty people. people in turkey do not like greece, but ready to be friend again.

the blue eyed people in turkey do not come from greeks, they do not have blue eyes also. those people are mostly from slavic balkans who came during the ottoman empire. in east anatolia, about 10-15 % of kurds have coloured eyes also, mostly green.

as a result, we can divide turkey or anatolia in to parts where genetic and cultural differences are very distinct.

- central anatolia --turkman from central asia (no mongolian genes)
- east/south east anatolia --arabic, kurdish, armenian (native settlers)
- north anatolia--caucasian +roman colonization
- south anatolia--persian + lidian and likians (luvvis)
- west anatolia-- ions (greek)+likians
- trachia-------- balkanic
 
What about the Celtic influence from the Gauls that populated the Roman province of Galatia? The migrated and conquered the area of Central Anatolia in the 3rd century BC. As late as the 5th Century AD the Galatian language was still being spoken there. They have had to make a genetic contribution to the make up of Turkey as it is today.
 
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