Religion Islam: Conceptions and misconceptions

[Shaolin]

I think you are completely missing the point on Allah. The NAME Allah comes from a pre-Islamic diety. All Mohammad did was identify Allah with Yhwh. The same way Isis was identified by early Christians with Mary, Zeus with Jupiter, Allat with Athene. It is a constant within religions to follow this pattern. You want objective sources? Encyclopeadia Mythica, an online source for various myths, An Encyclopedia of Gods by Micahel Jordan, ISBN 1-85626-636-2 should do you for now. I, BTW, regard all religions as myths. Mohammad re-writting the Quran as he got older - from the intro of my copy of the Quran, but if that is not good enough for you....
Yhwh is also from a polythestic origin that became monothestic. It is from a polythestic background. Through Mohammad and other prophets it gained prominance and finally became a monothestic Godhead.
It is called editing. Choosing the ones that he thought best suited his purposes. Newspaper editors do it everyday. BTW how do you know that they are the correct ones? By your very subjective view they are, but for millions of other people they are not.
I do not have an agenda to 'denouce' Islam. To me religions are a form of superstition, be it Islam, Christianity or Judaism. What I find fastinating about them is how they evolve from what they were to what they are to what they might become. Believe it or not you follow Islam differently from early Muslims and in a thousand years Muslims will follow it slightly different to you. Morals and peoples way of interpreting what is written will change to suit the society around it.

Mycerious,

I am only going to touch on one point (for now). Your very eager at saying that Muhammed (saaws) 'wrote' the Qur'an. Answer this, why is it that no-one is able to imitate it? Its a simple question. That article states and explains the challenge. I ask you to find me ONE (Just one) out of the billions of people on this earth who can fufill this challenge. Then I'll believe you.
Surely, if Muhammed (saaws) wrote it, then it can't be that hard.

For now, I'll be doing research regarding this pre-Islamic God. I remember afew friends refuting this claim a longtime ago.
.

 

[Mycernius]

A religion constitutes of a holybook, otherwise its considered a cult/sect.

How amazingly narrow minded. These definitions of both are probably better than your idea of what a cult or sect is (from Dictionary.com)
Sect: Noun
1. A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice.
2. A religious body, especially one that has separated from a larger denomination.
3. A faction united by common interests or beliefs.

Cult: Noun
1. a: A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
b: The followers of such a religion or sect.
2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.
5. a: Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
b: The object of such devotion.
6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.

Lets us look at the definitions, First Sect:;
There are certain followers of Islam that can fall under def. 1 Sufi, Ibadites, Alavites
The same can be said for the Ba'hai for def. 2 (Although you probably see them as a non-islamic group)
Islam as a whole for def. 3, which can also apply to any other religion
Now let's look at Cult
Def.1 :Can be said of any religion by another religion. Jews call non-Jews gentiles. Christians call non-Chrsistains heatens or pagans. Muslims call non-Muslims infidels.
Def.2 : All religions fill this definition
Def.3: As above
Def.5: As above

So according to the above Islam is a sect and/or cult. At no point does the words must not have a holy book mentioned. Check your definitions in future before posting.

For now, I'll be doing research regarding this pre-Islamic God. I remember afew friends refuting this claim a longtime ago.

I gave you two references, but you seem to want to close your eyes and ears to proper research by proper historians

I am only going to touch on one point (for now). Your very eager at saying that Muhammed (saaws) 'wrote' the Qur'an. Answer this, why is it that no-one is able to imitate it? Its a simple question. That article states and explains the challenge. I ask you to find me ONE (Just one) out of the billions of people on this earth who can fufill this challenge. Then I'll believe you.

One: He took other written works and edited them together for himself.
Two: Joseph Smiith and his book of Mormon. Russel Taze and the founding of the Jehovahs Witnesses. Heavens Gate, Branch Dravidians or any other cult using re-written or edited versions of various Holy Books. The best example of writing an entire book for his religion is L. Ron Hubbard and Dianetics. Is that enough for you?

 

[Mars Man]

Wow !! This is gonna be hard to work into it seems, but I will try.

Thanks for the reply bossel ! I'm gonna have to print this out and look it over very carefully, I guess.

It looks like we have one central core of testing the Quran to see just what it is as a piece of literature--quite the same way that the testing of the Bible--at least, for now--has been done. I will try to follow up on that, and help out in a slightly more controled, academical manner.

It's kind of interesting how SVF is chirping in as though from the peanut gallery--which I think is a good thing, as long as it remains fair. (in the sense of the rules for giving rep--even if you disagree, if it's a good point. . .)

Well, and then I'll have to say I will be back--though for the moment, suggest that the well-set English definitions be given their due. ('cult' has a thread in this fora and it would be best to admit to its definitions.)

 

[strongvoicesforward]

It's kind of interesting how SVF is chirping in as though from the peanut gallery--which I think is a good thing, as long as it remains fair. (in the sense of the rules for giving rep--even if you disagree, if it's a good point. . .)

huh? Please clarify, MM. Don`t see why you felt it necessary to take this swipe.

As for "Peanut Gallery," would that mean you referring to me saying it was wrong of Bossel to use the word "liar?" You seemed to have said the same thing.

But for the record, I view you as coming in from the Peanut Gallery on my threads as well -- as a good thing or not, to me that, too, still remains to be seen.

 

[eemaan]

Hello, everyone, it's been a while!
I know we are passionate about our beliefs, or be it lack there of, but I think we could be a bit more polite, no?

 

[Mars Man]

huh? Please clarify, MM. Don`t see why you felt it necessary to take this swipe.

NO,no,no....strongvoicesforward san, this is not a "swipe" by any means. Perhaps you do not know the term. In formal debating settings, in printed form, that go on over a long period of exchanges, the 'peanut gallery' is a/are side article(s) consisting of comments on the moves/tactics, points and or materials used by the two or more sides in the debate.

There is absolutely nothing of a disparaging nature to this term, and, quite the opposite, it is rather an insightful matter--again, as I had mentioned, as long as it stays fair in its commentary. The peanut gallery is kind of like a radio announcer talking about a sports competition as it happens, to an audience who is following along with the action.

edit: Those who participate in the peanut gallery cannot participate in the debate.

But for the record, I view you as coming in from the Peanut Gallery on my threads as well -- as a good thing or not, to me that, too, still remains to be seen.

That could be seen that way, perhaps. Again, if I were to post as an all and out 'peanut gallery', I would be fair and I would post regarding the 'hits' and 'misses' on both sides as well as a commentary on the overall flow (twists and turns) the debate takes.


No, SVF san, the peanut gallery thing is a very postitive and hard to do thing and a thing that does require as fair and impartial judgment as possible. If I were to say you were acting in the capacity of a peanut gallery, you should take it with a smile and a sense of honor and responsibility.

(It appears that you have a tendency to see negative, and I'll try to better define my statements.)

 

[Mars Man]

Hello, everyone, it's been a while!
I know we are passionate about our beliefs, or be it lack there of, but I think we could be a bit more polite, no?

Nice to see you posting here again eemaan san. As far as I can see, most everyone has been relatively polite enough, but with a lot of room left for formality--in an academical sense. To that extent, passion should be held in check; for sure. The 'How to discuss religion' thread should be well read by all.

Hope to hear from you again !! :wave:

ps for not posting the development of an argument of a given point (such as my posts regarding the more proper understanding of 2 Peter 3:15~17 in the 'Biblical Texts' thread) some posts have become a bit too long, with too many small counter points against other small disconnected points. (This would be an example of a peanut gallery statement as well)

 

[bossel]

What can I say to someone who thinks that 2+2=5 ?

How should I know what you do when you talk to yourself?

I gave you a verse which DIRECTLY states that the earth is spherical/round.

Er..., round & spherical are not really synonymous. & no, you haven't given a verse which "DIRECTLY" states that the Earth is a globe. You interpret it as such, but that's -well- just your interpretation. Now, if the verse would go something like "He has created ... the earth like a ball with truth.", then I would say that it is rather direct.

Now, you still haven't answered my question. WHERE is this 'verse' which says the earth is flat? What chapter, what verse?

Additionally to your very own carpet quote (which suffices, IMO), you mean?

Try this:
79:30 And after that He spread the earth;

78:6 Have We not made the earth as a bed,
7 And the mountains as pegs?

For what I heard, there are more, but rather open to interpretation (eg. that there is a place where the sun sets).

How about you answering some of my questions:
How prevalent was it in ancient Arabic times to "spread" your carpet [or your bed] like a ball?
Since I seem to have missed the point [in Islam being the "fastest-growing" religion], what is it?
Who's that ["back-Ally priest" you mentioned]?

As accurate as the earth being the centre of the universe.

& again you're wrong. The calculation of the Earth's circumference as 39,690 km was fairly accurate for the time & technology. Do you have a better one from the time of the Koran's introduction?

Do you now see what I mean by interpretations, and how sub-branches usually fall into one of the two branches; Sunni or Shia?

Not really, what are the Ibadites now? What's more, if your god is so almighty wouldn't it have been fairly easy for him to make the Koran understandable for everybody without any interpretation?

Being a muslim, I don't need the likes of Wikipedia when it comes to Islam.

Ah yes, the typical fundy, are you? "No text-critical exegesis necessary (or allowed). Just stick to the word as I tell you."

When he married, he married for social reform.

Ah yes, obviously, how could I doubt. kashii:

Anyway, its ulema who derive rulings from the Quran, not the followers. The followers do just that, follow.

Hmm, the Ulema aren't followers, then... Interesting.

A religion constitutes of a holybook, otherwise its considered a cult/sect.

Mycernius said it all.

Exactly. Everyone can be a sufi because it is a part of Islam. Though, the likes of Ibn Taymeyya are enemies of sufi, this is part of the explanation I gave you above regarding interpretations.

You mean like: Allah wanted that Muslims become enemies of Muslims? Interesting, again.

 

[Mycernius]

Let us try and put this "The Quran says the earth was round before anyone else" rubbish to bed.

Shape and Size of Earth
Earth and Moon widely known to be spherical in Greek world by 5th century BC

Aristotle (384-322 BC) refers to it as "old" knowledge

Circular shadow projected by Earth when it eclipses Moon

Ships disappear sailing away from shore by sinking below horizon with mast last visible; Earth's curvature visible over 13 mile distance

When traveling north, new stars appeared above northern horizon, while stars previously seen along southern horizon no longer visible; reverse true traveling south



Eratosthenes (276 - 195 B.C.)
Eratosthenes used geometry to estimate the circumference of the Earth.

Eratosthenes measured the altitude of the noontime sun at Alexandria at its maximum on Jun 21st. On that date, the Sun is directly overhead at noontime at Syene, in southern Egypt (latitude = 23.5 degrees north). The zenith distance is the angle from the zenith to the point where the Sun was at noon; it is also 90 degrees minus the altitude. At Syene, the zenith distance was 0 degrees; at Alexandria it was about 7 degrees. He knew how far it was from Alexandria to Syene, so he used geometry and the difference in zenith angle to estimate the size of the Earth. Eratosthenes also measured the tilt of the Earth axis by 23.5 degrees, which gives us the seasons .



Luke 17:30 -36 "It will be just like this on the day?" "?on that night"

"day", "night" referring to the same hour and event - only possible on a sphere. Note that by this time the idea of a spherical earth was well known in Greek society.

So passages in the New Testament can easily be seen in the light of a spherical earth.

In the Old Testament we have Isaiah 40:22 "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth." The original Hebrew for circle is "sphercity or roundness."

In Job 26:7 we have "He spreads out the northern skies, over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing."

From http://www.roundearth.net/sphere.htm
It seems there are even Biblical texts, much older than the Quran, that support a globe, not a flat earth

 

[Mars Man]

I'm still far behind in the flow and build of the discussion, yet as far as the measurement and understanding by some early Greeks, Mycernius has posted correctly. I strongly reason that THAT matter leaves no room for objection.

I must admit, however, that when it comes to the texts of the Hebrew Scriptures or the Christian Greek Scriptures, it may not be as certain a thing--in fact, I would bet that the linguistical aspects of the orginal Arabic would be rather similar to those of the Hebrew and Greek. . . that is loose, but understandable in the base (or root) sense, which in turn, leaves the understanding that more likely than not, the writer did not have the knowledge that we today do have.

 

[Mars Man]

79:30 And after that He spread the earth;
78:6 Have We not made the earth as a bed,
7 And the mountains as pegs?
For what I heard, there are more, but rather open to interpretation (eg. that there is a place where the sun sets).

These are interestingly close to some texts in the Hebrew Scriptures. I'll pull them out a bit later--of course as soon as possible though, while it's still relevant.

 

[strongvoicesforward]

There is absolutely nothing of a disparaging nature to this term, ...

No, SVF san, the peanut gallery thing is a very postitive and hard to do thing and a thing that does require as fair and impartial judgment as possible. If I were to say you were acting in the capacity of a peanut gallery, you should take it with a smile and a sense of honor and responsibility.

The term is seldom used in a positive light. It is disparaging whether you declare it to be otherwise or not. Perhaps you are locked in some kind of archaic use of it, but most do not take to being the target of the term with "honor and responsibility."

In normal discourse with persons, the meaning of the phrase is said to identify hecklers, irreverant persons, or those who cannot discriminate. It is in reference to those not of the "play," either far up with the allegorical gods, or down with the poor groundlings who may be so crass as to not show manners by throwing things.

Here.

I have never heard it used in modern times as a sign of addressing someone with honor.

(It appears that you have a tendency to see negative, and I'll try to better define my statements.)

I disagree. I see reality for that which it is. I can clearly identify the positive as well as the negative.

 

[Mars Man]

I disagree. I see reality for that which it is. I can clearly identify the positive as well as the negative.

OK. I'll leave it with that then; it's off topic.

 

[Ebu Huzeyfe]

I hope there are more muslim members on the forum that can post here beside Belle74311 san. A wider view on this subject would be better than just one person defending it.

I have not read all what writen under this topic yet. I harried up to answer that there is another one who graduated on Islamic Studies.
Any question, welcome...

While you are thinking what to ask, I'm reading the whole topic from A to Z.

 

[Ebu Huzeyfe]

The Qu'ran suffers from the same problem as the Bible. A writen source that has been transcibe over the centuries. Mistakes will happen and inconsistences will appear. No matter how good the copist are human errror will happen. There is also the change and usage of language, as Bossel pointed out, over the span of time. The original Qu'ran was written almost 1500 years ago in a particular poetic style. Language changes over that amount of time. Modern arabic will read differently than ancient arabic. Language evolve, the best examples being English and Spanish and even Japanese.

It is true that languages change from time to time... sometimes it developes, sometimes decays... Arabic language was on its best (top) that time. Koran has kept it till now.

It doesn't mean that it has never changed. Today, we can get many diffirent local arabic dialects. But, still the main Arabic, as we call it fus-ha, is the the same as 1400 years ago. and most of the arabs (almost all) endurstan Koran easily.

You can find out this through prayings in arab countries. While they pray shortly in non-arab countries (because, they don't understand Koran, so they read short), they pray so long in arab countries (because, they understand what they read).

That is all for the moment.

 

[Mars Man]

Good evening Ebu Huzeyfe ! Greetings from the Japan Alps ! Nice to have you on the forum, and would sugguest that you might want to introduce yourself on the 'Member Introduction' sub-fora in the 'Community' forum.

That would be the nice and friendly way of letting everyone get to know you before you start really posting a lot.

Hope to talk to you later. See you !!:wave:

 

[Ebu Huzeyfe]

Good evening Ebu Huzeyfe ! Greetings from the Japan Alps ! Nice to have you on the forum, and would sugguest that you might want to introduce yourself on the 'Member Introduction' sub-fora in the 'Community' forum.
That would be the nice and friendly way of letting everyone get to know you before you start really posting a lot.
Hope to talk to you later. See you !!:wave:

Konban wa my friend.

Oooh, very sorry. You are absolutely right. I couldn't think of it. Many thanks for reminding.

I'm doing it right now. Arigatou gozaimasu.

 

[No-name]

Hajimemashite Ebu-san.
I hope you are ready to persevere thought some rough treatment here. I hope you understand some of the honest curiosity about Islam and a sincere desire to understand exists along with the contempt and open disdain you will find. I encourage you to tough it out.

Sabro

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Welcome to the forum Ebu! Hopefully you can help shed some light on some of the misconceptions we have been discussing so far

I can assure you that anything on this thread that might be seen as disrespectful is not contempt of Islam, but dismay at finding poorly-reasoned arguments used in support of it. :relief:

 

[No-name]

You will find people that are kind and sincere, but there is a bit of a hurdle to get over. I believe that we in the west have a great many misconceptions about islam as well as our share of contempt...and we also have little tolerance for poorly reasoned arguments. I for one will listen with open ears. I want to know more-- especially from real people and not organizations or websites.